Simple question: Is it really worth it to have a laser on a pistol?

[Walt Sherrill]

(I don't think you're using the term "Sanctioned" as IDPA does, by the way.)

I could have worded it better. By sanctioned I meant contests at a higher level than just a "local" match; at local matches the rules are often far less strictly enforced -- it's a FUN thing. (While still a member, I haven't shot IDPA in several years -- and while I do get the updated rule books and go to the website, I haven't read the new rules closely.)

My point was that in a sanctioned match - like an "official"regional or state contest - you would be unlikely to have those types of devices allowed. But even at a less stringent local match, the scores obtained using the devices, while possibly allowed, would not be counted/acknowledged in match rankings, The scores would tell the shooter something, however -- which is why some might want to do it..

I'm also pretty sure you wouldn't be allowed to use them in an IDPA Qualification match, where the level you compete is defined, either.

I haven't shot USPSA -- don't know of any matches within a couple of hours driving distance of where I live -- but suspect their "production" division would restrict their use, as well.

 

[Tirod]

I've held off because the application I would use it for is specific. A laser on a handgun - like a pocket pistol or CCW larger gun isn't really "necessary." However, I would not likely be clearing my own house with it either.

I would use an AR pistol, really a different kind of thing. And I wouldn't use something with a tiny pinpoint of light, I'd prefer something that could be easily adjusted. I want a 12" circle of illumination at 21 feet and 25 yards. That's asking a lot. The purpose would be to illuminate the target for identification first, and secondly, a 12" circle of light would be easy to place on target knowing what I lit up would get hit. Even with an AR pistol. It would be "tremoring" a lot less than a tiny pinpoint of light.

Right now most of the green laser illuminators with adjustable focus are coming in from China with variable quality, but more importantly, variable availability. They come and go off the market and constantly change features and specs far too much to make a reliable choice. They are also highly underpowered due to law. At best the most reliable alternative would be a good Surefire light with green filter, which would be much more durable and certainly higher cost. But, you get what you pay for.

As for being adjustable, my concept would be a three detent position switch you slide, all the way back is close range, a medium range setting, and all the way forward for long distance - about 100m. That takes a higher quality focusing mechanism added to the power hungry green laser which is basically a broader spectrum one that filters the specific viridian frequency. It's not efficient nor cheap - even with the Chinese.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

They have impartial tests all the time, they are called "pistol competitions". IPSC, IPDA, etc, etc. I've run an unsanctioned one at a local private range for a good many years. Lots of them around here. I've never seen anyone using a laser sight even be competitive. Maybe none of them have an official "internet warrior" medal, who knows?

As others have noted, you need to practice to become proficient with any weapon or added device. Folks may TRY them at a non-sanctioned match, but that's typically done before they've developed a level of proficiency. The folks most of us have seen using LASERs at the range aren't experienced, typically haven't had training, don't know how best to use a LASER, and their performance may not be representative of anything except NEWBIES playing with a new toy.

As I said, I've shot competitively. I have a shot timer. I have a handheld light. I have guns with night sights. I have ordered a Streamlight T-4 (both light and LASER), and I should be able to -- after some practice with the new device -- satisfy MYSELF -- about the relative values of such devices. I'm thinking about getting TRUGLO sights for my home defense weapon (which is what I'll probably keep the Streamlight mounted on), so I'll have another option to try, too.

 

[Sam1911]

I'm willing to bet, Sam, that if the rules allowed, many would... At least in IDPA...

Of course you're right. The novice and marksman classed shooters do try a lot of things, wondering if they'll help. Seriously though, no shooters ranked Expert or higher would do so, except for laughs. Really, not trying to be snarky or mean, but it just wouldn't be up for serious consideration.

I've seen this same argument rehashed on forums for years. Some say they're slower, and others say they're not. I kind of wish they were allowed so the debate could be settled once and for all.

Well, as I said, IDPA now includes a competition subset which will let us all sort this out for good and for all ... if anyone bothers to.

And I quote:

8.2.10 Specialty Divisions (SPD)
A. IDPA encourages shooters to practice their gun handling skills with commonly carried firearms. Many everyday carry firearms do not fit into the 6 competition handgun divisions.
B. IDPA allows clubs to add “Specialty Divisions” for scoring. This division allows cartridges smaller than 9 mm, carry optics, activated lasers, mounted lights, and other firearms which do not fit into the other competition divisions to participate in matches.

I don't know if you shoot IDPA, but if so, your chance to do what you want exists, right now, today. Of course just some guy comparing his score against shooters in other divisions may or may not make things very clear. A lot still depends on the relative skills of the shooters, and even a good shooter who's changing equipment that drastically is going to take a large hit on his time, but if there's any validity to the claim that a laser sight could be a competitive advantage, we'll know soon enough.

If the consensus is that they slow down one's performance, then logically, l don't even see why they aren't allowed in the first place.

I explained that above.

 

[lsudave]

I expect that most of us can point at and hit a man-sized target without sights. The question as I see is; can you do that without raising the pistol to a normal sight line, say from the hip or across your body or some other unconventional pose. Not all fights occur standing. That's when a laser helps.

I don't see this as practical, sorry. The listed applications:

From the hip- you mean, like a Western gunslinger on a quickdraw? I have to say, if I were ever to feel so endangered that I was compelled to shoot ala Josey Wales at someone instead of waiting until I had the gun in proper position, I darn sure won't be waiting until I acquire the laser, I'd have a couple-three rds fired by that time and the gun would still be coming up to a better position as it occurred. And I would be moving too. So the laser would be irrelevant at that moment.
Also- I have a family. I'm not inclined to do a rapid quickdraw shoot when something startles me in my house, as I might kill my son while he enters my room or goes to the bathroom.

Cross-body; you mean like in a car? Not waiting on a laser, again. If I'm that threatened as to fire while in the car, the target is close enough to hit without using any sight picture. If it's not, I'm getting the car out of there, or taking a more covered position. I'm not shooting like a gangster in a driveby. I've got to admit, I'm probably not prepared for some type of Colombian style ambush/assassination attempt (block in the car and riddle it with bullets), but if it happened to me, I doubt a handgun would be of much help then anyway, laser or not.

Not all fights occur standing; ok, the only way I see being seated as a hindrance to getting the gun drawn to a good position would be tight at a table, say at dinner. If I can't get the gun over the table, the laser is probably painting the table from underneath, or the table is obscuring the part of the target that is being painted. Either case, I don't see the laser.

Also, please keep in mind the realistic truth here- the amount of time it takes to pick up on a bouncing, shaking laser dot, while you are primarily focused on the threat at hand, is probably longer than it would take to physically raise the gun to a more natural and effective position. It's not very hard to point (using your hand and finger) at something rapidly, while you and the target are both moving. It's a lot harder (at least for me) to scan for and confirm a quivering dot that I'm attempting to direct and control, while I'm under extreme duress and taken by surprise. If we're both moving, I'm not saying I am landing direct hits every shot, but I'm definitely going to get a couple shots off quicker and more on target by pointing, than by trying to track a bouncing dot. Pointing- thrusting your arm out between yourself and the danger- is a reflexive move, and having a gun at the end of your arm is a conditioned adaptation of that reflex. Picking up a small dot isn't reflexive, your natural reaction to any visual distraction is to be still and look at that, to bring it into focus. That could be disastrous in such a scenario.

Now, gun presented and you're sweeping, using a laser instead of relying on proper position as indication you're on target- ok, I can understand that. I just don't do that myself, I'm a lot more comfortable knowing (feeling) that I have the gun in the correct position to shoot accurately enough. It would seem like the laser would be one more thing to have to process, when your vision and mind isn't in a multi-tasking mode.

And again, I don't mean any of this in a hostile manner, and I suppose you could always list isolated circumstances where a laser would help with defense or training. I just don't suscribe to the device, myself. To each their own.

 

[Sam1911]

I think lsudave's point here bears repeating, so I did, back on the first page in abbreviated form:

And really, stretch my mind as I might, I can't come up with any really realistic common ... uh, plausible, ... actually even any theoretical situations where I'd draw a gun but couldn't get either a body index, gun index, or sight picture. (And then, finding myself in that position, think to activate the laser.) IF the picture is as limited as I'm seeing it in my mind, then adding a laser sight to your gun for such really, really remote possibilities wouldn't make as much sense as, let's say, carrying a life jacket in the car with me on my way to work every day, in case of flooding.

So, help. What situations can be presented in which you'd be likely to need to shoot, but you can't get the gun into one of the common retention positions or a sighting position?

(Remember, we're leaving out police officers shooting around a riot shield they're holding in front of them, and soldiers wearing NVG.)

I really am asking here for people to list these situations where we can make a realistic argument that the fastest and (hopefully) best way to use the gun will be to hold it out of its normal position instead of getting it in front of your face, and yet still taking the time to aim it by directing the laser onto the target.

It is really ease to SAY that there are "lots of" situations where you might not be able to get that gun up, but you'd still have enough time to aim it (entirely) with the laser***, and fire it to stop an attack. But as creative as I flatter myself to be, I have trouble picturing any that seem to be likely enough to warrant the expense and effort (YOU MUST PRACTICE THIS) to try to accommodate with a laser sight.




*** -- Also remember that this scenario, by definition, is one in which you cannot possibly use the normal presentation "index" to get your gun aimed almost sufficiently on target, and then use the laser dot to confirm. These would be situations where you would indeed be waving the gun in the general area of the target and trying to "find the bouncing ball". So that excludes an entire concept of how to "best use" laser sights from consideration in these specific cases.

 

[lsudave]

adding- I tested this a little informally with a buddy who has access to a laser (the sweep under presentation part). We did it with an unchambered 1911, with a grip laser, in a shadowed dark (but not black) house.

Just my own experience here- with my natural presentation of the weapon (the posture I practice every time I shoot), I don't see the laser half the time, as it's obscured by my gun and hands until I train it on something at a distance. In order to keep the laser visible, I have to adjust to a different presentation. From his observation, I acquired the targets (pillow, doorknob, etc) faster without me using it myself. I would say he did too. As this would seem the most likely scenario (something goes bump in the house and you check it out), I'm sticking with what works best for me in that case. I'm staying in my ready position until I am sure there is no danger, and not just casually walking around with a gun in hand but not presented (if it comes out, it is going to be ready). A couple of times we'd randomly toss a pillow, and based on observation, we were both able to 'paint' the pillow a lot more by using our natural forms. Trying to do so using the laser as a target, we both missed the pillows entirely most of the time.

Now, the use of a laser did help us evaluate each other, as he could see what I aimed at (and vice versa), but not directly aide in targeting.

So for me, it's a no-go.

 

[Lycidas Janwor]

The only time I can imagine a laser to be a significant upgrade over using a traditional pistol sight picture is if you are trying to be a movie cop, bad guy or cowboy and you shoot from the hip. Then, heck yah, I don't need to actually bring my pistol up and, you know, aim, I just shoot from the hip, with my right hand, because the laser dot is on target, amirite?!?!

 

[usp9]

amirite?!?!

No, but then you've probably just never been in a real intense altercation. Your imagination hasn't allowed you to foresee the unexpected happening to you in a way that prevents normal sighting. No sin, just not prepared for the unusual.

 

[Hokkmike]

So far, reading all of the comments with some making excellent points, I am not be able justify spending an additional $200 plus for a laser.

 

[Lycidas Janwor]

No, but then you've probably just never been in a real intense altercation. Your imagination hasn't allowed you to foresee the unexpected happening to you in a way that prevents normal sighting. No sin, just not prepared for the unusual.

Understood. Also, I was not being serious...

 

[Walt Sherrill]

So far, reading all of the comments with some making excellent points, I am not be able justify spending an additional $200 plus for a laser.

I just picked up a Streamlight TLR-4 (Laser and Light) for $132 (including tax and 2nd day shipping. I've got it mounted, and will try it at the range next week. And then practice.) You can get quality stuff for a lot less than $200.

 

[herrwalther]

Paintball veterans' experiences are probably as (or more) credible than comments from folks who have NEVER used lasers in a force-on-force training environment, or who have never actually evaluated the effectiveness of their tools anywhere but at a pistol range. (If someone has actually used a LASER-mounted weapon in a real-life situation, he or she will be reluctant to discuss it on a forum like this -- or anywhere -- if they're smart.)

You would be incorrect. If lasers were not useful in some application they would not exist. I have used visible and IR lasers in the military and as a private shooter. They have useful applications.

I used Infrared lasers with night vision goggles in two of my past careers, police and military. They did have a use for building clearing in total darkness. But that was on an M4 carbine or an MP5 so they were a tad bit more steady. For home defense use I would rather hang a light on my pistol for proper target(s) identification. IF I was inclined to bolt things to my pistols.

Your PD uses IR lasers? They must have a cushy budget. I rarely see police with IR lasers and NVGs.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

You would be incorrect. If lasers were not useful in some application they would not exist. I have used visible and IR lasers in the military and as a private shooter. They have useful applications.

You apparently did NOT read what I wrote but responded to something else...

Your words suggest that you have used LASERs and IR equipment at the RANGE, and apparently against moving targets. I've have yet to hear from anyone who has actually used them in real-world handgun combat. I suspect that if people were hurt in the process, the shooter's lawyer have probably told him/her to share their knowledge of that experience very narrowly. While you may have used IR LASERs at work (and at the range) that equipment isn't typically available to civilians who might use them in self-defense situations.

As for the rest of my earlier statement (not fully cited): put simply, I wrote that comments from folks with limited experience (as might be the case with folks using LASER sights in paintball games)** were as credible or more credible than comments from folks with NO experience (i.e., have never used LASERS) and only a theoretical understanding of the equipment and its use. Most of the folks in this discussion fall into those two classes.

**Paintball gamers using LASERs do deal with moving target that are less predictable than what we'll generally see at a range or a IDPA or USPSA match, and their targets do shoot back.

I continue to question the use of LASERs in very dark or very low-light situations -- when you really don't have the ability to clearly find and identify your target -- and I don't see how LASER help much in that situation. Yet that very situation was previously touted as a good use of a LASER. I can see how IR equipment could work well in that situation -- but most civilians aren't going to use or carry IR gear for self-defense.

I also question whether LASERs are much help with moving targets -- especially when the targets are moving in unpredictable ways -- but that is, in effect, a question, not a claim that they are ineffective.

As I said, now that I have a new LASER system with both light and LASER, I'll do some of my own testing... that'll help ME understand more of the situation than I do now.

.

 

[pblanc]

I have heard the argument that if there is enough light to identify your target, there will always be enough light to see your sights. Frankly, I think that is hogwash.

I have an L-shaped one story house with the master bedroom in the back of the L. There is a long hallway running down the length of the L extension and if any threat approaches my bedroom in the wee hours, that is certainly the direction in which it will come, unless some perp tries to crash directly through a bedroom window. I keep a small night light with a Christmas tree type light bulb plugged into a wall outlet near floor level at the end of the hall opposite my bedroom. It provides sufficient light to identify a target at that end of the hallway, but my bedroom, which is as much as 20 yards away, is still quite dark. Now, I do have night sights on my pistol, but I have found that with my present night vision, they take me longer to acquire than I would like.

I do have a Streamlight TLR-2 combination laser/light combo but I keep the small toggle switch set to laser only. It is a pretty simple matter to turn on the tactical light if the situation should require it for target identification. In these very dim conditions it is extremely easy and quick to identify the laser dot on the wall at the end of this long hallway. A target approaching my bedroom would be well back lighted by my small night light, unless the intruder took the trouble and time to disable it, in which case I would have had sufficient time to take careful aim.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I think we've drifted far enough and begun to circle back.

I'm going to go ahead and close this until there is something constructive and objective to be added