Lateral movement to escape line of fire

[Jerkstore]

I know that common wisdom says that one should NEVER draw from the drop, i.e. when a gun is pointed at you, because you can never shoot fast enough to win and you will likely be shot. However, can one reliably escape such danger by quickly moving off the line of fire, either by jumping or running sideways?

My reasoning is this. There is a risk of being shot in any case, even if you fully cooperate. It is not clear to me that the risk of jumping off line creates a greater risk. Also, after you jump off line, even if the bad guy shoots, he will have to have first regained his sights, and his accuracy after doing so is going to dramatically suffer. Finally, even if a bullet hits you after jumping off line, it is unlikely to be a lethal hit. It is much more likely to hit somewhere non-lethal compared to when you are standing still.

In a situation where you are moving laterally quickly, I think there is almost no chance that the bad guy will be able to shoot before your body is fully off line. I saw a youtube video of a guy dry firing with his gun pressed against another guy's forehead. It was a demonstration of reaction time. The shooter was told to pull the trigger as soon as the other guy's head moved. The shooter did so but was unable to pull the trigger before the other guy's head was out of the line of fire. Reaction time is too slow.

So extending this logic to the whole body of the victim, it seems like jumping or running off line would be a reliable way to evade a gunshot. You can then draw while moving quickly to the side and shoot back, probably with greater ease because the original shooter is less likely to be moving.

I just hate the notion of "waiting your turn". Of course, this strategy will not work if you are on a confined space such that no room to laterally move is available. And of course it assumes that you have mobility.

Thoughts?

 

[Kleanbore]

In a situation where you are moving laterally quickly, I think there is almost no chance that the bad guy will be able to shoot before your body is fully off line.

How in the world would you ever expect anyone to hit a moving attacker?

The shooter did so but was unable to pull the trigger before the other guy's head was out of the line of fire. Reaction time is too slow.

That's why people are trained to shoot at center mass--a larger target that moves more slowly.

 

[Jerkstore]

How in the world would you ever expect anyone to hit a moving attacker?

That's why people are trained to shoot at center mass--a larger target that moves more slowly.

Your first comment suggests that you fully support my theory because the bad guy wouldn't be able to hit me if I'm moving?

Of course, and I think my original post states this, there is always a risk of being shot, regardless of whether you move or stand still. The point is how to manage the risk and create an opening to draw your own gun without "waiting for your turn".

 

[Jerkstore]

Another way to state my theory is that jumping quickly off line creates chaos and distance, both of which are friends of the defender looking to escape and/or make an opening to shoot back.

So assuming there is enough space and you aren't immobile, why would you ever stand still and cooperate?

 

[Kleanbore]

Your first comment suggests that you fully support my theory because the bad guy wouldn't be able to hit me if I'm moving?

No, NO, NO! You missed the point entirely.

Forget what you think you have learned from shooting at stationary targets at the range. In a self defense encounter, one can reasonably expect the assailant to be moving at up to five meters per second.

The defender who cannot hit him several times very quickly will be in a word of hurt.

Another way to state my theory is that jumping quickly off line creates chaos and distance,

If he is close enough to be demanding anything from you, the distance created by your standing broad jump would be insignificant.

both of which are friends of the defender looking to escape and/or make an opening to shoot back.

Can you draw while jumping? We are trained to draw while moving off line, but not to jump.

So assuming there is enough space and you aren't immobile, why would you ever stand still and cooperate?

Judgement call. If I believe that compliance will likely succeed, I'll do it. It is only if I believe that it is very likely that I will l be shot anyway that I will risk drawing on a drawn gun.

 

[shafter]

If someone has the drop on you with a gun the best course of action is to do nothing. At close range it isn't difficult to hit a moving target and lateral movement won't make that much difference either way.

If one is going to draw anyways you better have a fast draw and by fast I mean sub-one second from draw to round on target. I've trained it for a long time and I can get under one second from a duty rig and slightly slower from concealment but it's a last resort. If you fumble it you're dead.

 

[wayneinFL]

If he is close enough to be demanding anything from you, the distance created by your standing broad jump would be insignificant.

If the attacker is within arm's length or maybe 6 feet, what are your thoughts on grabbing his gun?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

One of my favorite sequences from an ATM was from about 2000. This guy walks up to an ATM and is doing his transaction when you see another guy behind him, then the other guy has a gun and the victim is wide eyed. The next image of the sequence is the bad guy standing there with his gun pointed at the ATM but with his head turned to the side, undoubtedly in the direction the guy bolted.

Movement, particularly lateral movement, has proven to be difficult to hit time and time again as evidenced time and time again by body cam videos of cops trying to shoot people or avoiding being shot by people. The same goes for a lot of security cam video. Unexpected movement is better than expected movement. Even then, sometimes, officers can't even hit an unarmed, stationary suspect handcuffed in the back of their patrol car, not even with a mag dump. Such advantages aren't absolutes, just percentages.

When and how you cooperate and/or fight and/or run will be determined by the circumstances and your own confidence to act.

 

[AK Hunter]

If the bad guy already has you at gunpoint would it be a good idea to drop & roll as you draw your gun? He first would have to figure out what you are doing, then he would have to re-aim to get you back in his sights before pulling the trigger.

 

[Rexster]

Lateral? No, not a simple lateral, unless it is my only available path. My default plan is a forward oblique, to get behind his gun hand, if that path is available. Simple mechanics of human movement. Whether I flee, or fight, I want to put myself where his trigger jerk is less likely to be toward me, and where it will generally be more difficult for him to traverse, to re-orient the muzzle.

 

[Telekinesis]

It is a pretty standard thing to train to move while drawing your gun. Lots of classes just have you move one step to the side, but the real use is that you start moving and KEEP MOVING while you draw and shoot. The reason it is truncated to a single step in classes is because having 25 people on a firing line all continuously moving about at the same time could get a bit chaotic.

Anecdotal evidence - but from some conversations with instructors who run FOF classes, it seems that if done right one can move, draw, and get hits on target when confronted with a bad guy who has a gun already drawn. It’s not guaranteed that you won’t get shot, but depending on the situation it can be a better choice than just waiting to die. The keys are gaining the initiative, violence of action, breaking into the other guy’s OODA loop, and actually having practiced drawing, moving, and shooting together.

 

[Hartkopf]

Getting off the X is a common practice. IMO, if you care about self defense and you carry, you should practice getting off the X during every range trip. Move, draw and hit the target, hit multiple targets while moving. Moving from a knife attack might be more likely than moving from a drawn gun. Either way practice moving and shooting as much as possible. (Start slow and work up to speed, walk throughs are good at first until you’re comfortable)

 

[Hartkopf]

If you fumble it you're dead.

Practicing drawing from concealment while moving might convince the OP to rethink his strategy. Depending on clothing, a fumble can happen pretty often. What shirt a person happens to wear that day can determine a 1.25 second first shot to a fumble and a 2 second first shot.

Of course using a shot timer could make a person rethink his strategy. From concealment, about 1.25 seconds. How quick if your gun is already out and aimed at target? Even when moving, way under a second is easy. So if a person was to run a simulation against one’s self, questions could be answered in his or her mind.

 

[Jerkstore]

If the attacker is within arm's length or maybe 6 feet, what are your thoughts on grabbing his gun?

That is another option in that case. But if he is outside of arm's length, and there is space to move, I don't want to sit there and do what he says. I want to fight if possible, especially if I am armed too.

 

[Jerkstore]

It is a pretty standard thing to train to move while drawing your gun. Lots of classes just have you move one step to the side, but the real use is that you start moving and KEEP MOVING while you draw and shoot. The reason it is truncated to a single step in classes is because having 25 people on a firing line all continuously moving about at the same time could get a bit chaotic.

Anecdotal evidence - but from some conversations with instructors who run FOF classes, it seems that if done right one can move, draw, and get hits on target when confronted with a bad guy who has a gun already drawn. It’s not guaranteed that you won’t get shot, but depending on the situation it can be a better choice than just waiting to die. The keys are gaining the initiative, violence of action, breaking into the other guy’s OODA loop, and actually having practiced drawing, moving, and shooting together.

That's exactly my thought as well! And it seems that if you do get shot it likely won't be a center shot but something peripheral that won't kill you.

 

[Jerkstore]

No, NO, NO! You missed the point entirely.

Forget what you think you have learned from shooting at stationary targets at the range. In a self defense encounter, one can reasonably expect the assailant to be moving at up to five meters per second.

The defender who cannot hit him several times very quickly will be in a word of hurt.


If he is close enough to be demanding anything from you, the distance created by your standing broad jump would be insignificant.

Can you draw while jumping? We are trained to draw while moving off line, but not to jump.


Judgement call. If I believe that compliance will likely succeed, I'll do it. It is only if I believe that it is very likely that I will l be shot anyway that I will risk drawing on a drawn gun.

I disagree that the distance from one jump would be insignificant. It would be enough to move off center and force the bad guy to readjust his line of fire. That is enough to cause him to likely miss or at least get a bad hit on you. It doesn't take much distance to accomplish this.

I use the word "jump" to mean an actual jump or a run or other quick movement. It doesn't have to be an airborn jump.

Yes, I understand it is a judgment call. I'm just trying to question the adage that you should ALWAYS "wait your turn" if drawn upon.

 

[Jerkstore]

If the bad guy already has you at gunpoint would it be a good idea to drop & roll as you draw your gun? He first would have to figure out what you are doing, then he would have to re-aim to get you back in his sights before pulling the trigger.

Well dropping and rolling would not create distance. Plus it would be impossible to draw if you were rolling around on the ground. I don't see how that would work.

 

[Jeff White]

If the attacker is within arm's length or maybe 6 feet, what are your thoughts on grabbing his gun?

Have you trained for that? Way back in the day I spent a long day in SWAT training doing disarms with red guns. This isn't the kind of move you are going to try at 6 feet. It's a contact distance technique. There are other things that you might do if you are going to grab for his weapon. If you can push the slide of a semi auto out of battery it won't fire. You can grab the cylinder of a revolver and grip it tight enough to keep it from turning it won't fire. If you can get your hand, finger etc between that hammer and the frame it won't fire. These are all last ditch hand to hand options and you need to be prepared physically for a HTH fight.

That is enough to cause him to likely miss or at least get a bad hit on you. It doesn't take much distance to accomplish this.

First off you are assuming that the assailant is trained to take a sight picture before firing. That's a huge miscalculation. There is no aiming at that distance. What you are talking about is a HTH engagement where you best option might be to knock the assailants weapon in one direction and move in the other. Of course you'll have to have superhuman speed to get far enough away before he recovers. You're best bet might be to shove him away, and I mean hard and then draw and shoot from retention. You do train on shooting from retention, don't you?

 

[Jerkstore]

Have you trained for that? Way back in the day I spent a long day in SWAT training doing disarms with red guns. This isn't the kind of move you are going to try at 6 feet. It's a contact distance technique. There are other things that you might do if you are going to grab for his weapon. If you can push the slide of a semi auto out of battery it won't fire. You can grab the cylinder of a revolver and grip it tight enough to keep it from turning it won't fire. If you can get your hand, finger etc between that hammer and the frame it won't fire. These are all last ditch hand to hand options and you need to be prepared physically for a HTH fight.
First off you are assuming that the assailant is trained to take a sight picture before firing. That's a huge miscalculation. There is no aiming at that distance. What you are talking about is a HTH engagement where you best option might be to knock the assailants weapon in one direction and move in the other. Of course you'll have to have superhuman speed to get far enough away before he recovers. You're best bet might be to shove him away, and I mean hard and then draw and shoot from retention. You do train on shooting from retention, don't you?

I'm not assuming that the assailant is trained to take a sight picture. Regardless of his care in aiming, he is going to be significantly less accurate if i move before he pulls the trigger. If he is not using his sights, then all the better for me.

I am also not assuming any particular distance, such as hand-to-hand distance. I am making a generalization for all distances, which of course has exceptions. Even within arms length distance, it seems that the same principle would apply. BY THE TIME THE BAD GUY'S BRAIN PROCESSES THAT I HAVE MOVED, I AM A FOOT OR TWO OFF LINE. IF HE SHOOTS RIGHT THEN, HE'LL EITHER MISS OR MAYBE HE'LL GET ME IN THE SIDE OR SOMEWHERE BUT IT WON'T KILL ME AND I CAN PROBABLY STILL SHOOT BACK. IF HE READJUSTS HIS AIM, A COUPLE SECONDS OF TIME WILL HAVE PASSED THAT WILL ALLOW ME TO SHOOT.

So why the adage that you should always "wait your turn"? I can understand it when you are a gas station attendant and you're stuck in a corner. Then obviously you must wait. Or same if you are on crutches. But if I'm out in the open and can run, why stand there like a dummy and "wait my turn". Am I missing something?

 

[whisler]

It would seem prudent, that if you decide to move laterally, that you move toward your dominant (gun) side. Otherwise an off center hit could disable your draw and ability to return fire.

 

[Jeff White]

Regardless of his care in aiming, he is going to be significantly less accurate if i move before he pulls the trigger.

At HTH distance you are going to have to move pretty far to get out of the line of fire.

If there is enough distance to run why are you there waiting for him to aim at you in the first place. You need to do some well planned and executed force on force training so you can try this out for yourself.

Sometimes if the assailant is close enough to you, your best and maybe only option is to attack. The Army teaches soldiers to attack into a near ambush. The situations are nearly the same.

Why would you stop and draw if you’re far enough from your assailant to run?

 

[Jerkstore]

At HTH distance you are going to have to move pretty far to get out of the line of fire.

If there is enough distance to run why are you there waiting for him to aim at you in the first place. You need to do some well planned and executed force on force training so you can try this out for yourself.

Sometimes if the assailant is close enough to you, your best and maybe only option is to attack. The Army teaches soldiers to attack into a near ambush. The situations are nearly the same.

Why would you stop and draw if you’re far enough from your assailant to run?

Well, while being completely out of the line of fire would be ideal, the risk of being fatally shot is minimized simply by being off center even if I am partially still within the line of fire. After I move, his shot is going to be screwed up for various reasons.

I would not "stop to draw" but would draw while moving. But even if I did stop, I am still in a better position than drawing while in the original position with a gun on me. Because after moving the attacker's aim is temporarily messed up.

Obviously one can alway do more training such as FOF, but that doesn't mean that one cannot think about things in the abstract.

Even if I have room to move and succeed in moving laterally a short distance away, there is still a deadly threat nearby and I would still be justified in shooting.

 

[Jerkstore]

Here is a video that illustrates my point. Basically, action is always faster than reaction. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9T6bgvVJgvg This video covers a lot of stuff that I am not focused on, such as the hand-to-hand stuff. My only focus is on the fact that the trigger pull is always late compared to the lateral movement of the defender. That lateness provides the opportunity for lateral movement without "waiting your turn", so to speak. Right?

 

[entropy]

I present this from my personal experience, as more for you to think about, OP.
When I was a senior in high school a junior in the same class, called "Russia/China" wanted some help with his project, which was a Tae Kwan Do demonstration of how to disarm an attacker. On the day of the demonstration, I brought my Trooper MkIII ( had to be kept in the principal's office until the demonstration) and unbeknownst to anyone but the principal, when it came time for the demonstration, I had 6 primed, sized .38 Spl. brass in the cylinder. We squared off about 4-5 feet apart, me in the "dumb armed criminal" stance of the early 80's, (gun held out elbow's length at the hip). Even though he hadn't told me what move he was going to do, he telegraphed the roundhouse kick so obviously, I still giggle thinking about it. When he started the kick, I stepped my right leg back, withdrew the revolver with it, and fired (DA) before his kick swung past me. He fell backwards from the shock of hearing the gun actually go off (well, the primer) and not connecting his foot on the gun. I turned to the class and said "That is why you do not try to disarm someone unless you have been properly trained to do so." That kid hated me for a long time, and didn't learn his lesson there because he wanted to take on three Marines fresh out of boot on the choir trip to Anaheim a few months later. His girlfriend talked him out of it.
Just something to think about. Do you want to bet life and/or limb on the state of your attacker's abilities?

 

[crstrode]

I know that common wisdom says that one should NEVER draw from the drop, i.e. when a gun is pointed at you, because you can never shoot fast enough to win and you will likely be shot. However, can one reliably escape such danger by quickly moving off the line of fire, either by jumping or running sideways?

My reasoning is this. There is a risk of being shot in any case, even if you fully cooperate. It is not clear to me that the risk of jumping off line creates a greater risk. Also, after you jump off line, even if the bad guy shoots, he will have to have first regained his sights, and his accuracy after doing so is going to dramatically suffer. Finally, even if a bullet hits you after jumping off line, it is unlikely to be a lethal hit. It is much more likely to hit somewhere non-lethal compared to when you are standing still.

In a situation where you are moving laterally quickly, I think there is almost no chance that the bad guy will be able to shoot before your body is fully off line. I saw a youtube video of a guy dry firing with his gun pressed against another guy's forehead. It was a demonstration of reaction time. The shooter was told to pull the trigger as soon as the other guy's head moved. The shooter did so but was unable to pull the trigger before the other guy's head was out of the line of fire. Reaction time is too slow.

So extending this logic to the whole body of the victim, it seems like jumping or running off line would be a reliable way to evade a gunshot. You can then draw while moving quickly to the side and shoot back, probably with greater ease because the original shooter is less likely to be moving.

I just hate the notion of "waiting your turn". Of course, this strategy will not work if you are on a confined space such that no room to laterally move is available. And of course it assumes that you have mobility.

Thoughts?

You are gonna die.