Lawsuit launched against Front Sight by members

Status
Not open for further replies.
bigjim said:
Anybody that did not see this coming really must have worked very hard at it.

What was it Pt Barnum said? Man what a bad deal all around.

Yup. In an earlier thread I outlined my experiences with Front Sight Alaska. The whole operation smells fishier than a bar in Homer.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=143885&highlight=front+sight+alaska

These people spent $200,000 and didn't even get a deed! It's horrific. They got a right to get a deed if the property is ever actually developed.

If they spent that kind of money I think they could argue they have a completed land sales contract and he must give them legal title. They would also have equitable rights to use the land. But of course the beauty part is the land is useless desert so Ignatius isn't out a dime. If the heat comes down he can just slip off to Belize.
 
Wow, what a scam... :eek:

But you know...for a long time, I was always hearing "FrontSight this, FrontSight
that, oh it's the best training academy, blah blah blah, these guys are so good, anyone who's serious about defense needs to...blah blah...tactical...blah...high speed...urban rifle..blah blah blah" from QUITE A FEW people around here and on other gunboards.

Funny how the cheering section (with one exception) has suddenly fallen so quiet. Speak up boys, we can't hear you! :D

Fu-Man Shoe
 
hey Fu-man.....

There training is good. Very good. I went to several way back when Chuck Taylor and Gabe Suarez were involved and it was run out of Bakersfield CA.

But...........I still think those memberships are Bovine excrement.
 
444 ~

The lawsuit isn't about the training. The quality of FS training is entirely irrelevant, and comments either criticizing or praising it are really beside the point.

This noise is all about Piazza's fundraising methodolgy -- which certainly sounds fraudulent on the surface of things. Whether it is or not is what the day in court will determine.

pax

A man who loses his money, gains, at the least, experience, and sometimes, something better. -- Benjamin Disraeli
 
jfruser said:
We have physical quackery (chiropractics) and existential quackery (Xenu fun & games).
I'm going to ask you to retract that statement.

I am not a chiropractor. I was severely injured in a car accident when I was 14 years old. The medical doctors wanted to fuse my spine in several places, which would have left me with near zero flexibility and no chance of ever playing competitive sports.

Instead, my grandfather took me to see his chiropractor. I had treatments two or three times a week for 6 months, and except for occasional flare-ups when I do something stupid I've been fine (or nearly so) for more than 40 years. I played soccer, basket ball and tennis in high school, with a bit of high jumping added in. In college I played soccer, basketball, volleyball and intramural lacrosse.

The AMA wants us to think chiropractors are quacks, but they aren't. They learn about as much medicine as MDs, yet they aren't allowed to prescribe drugs.
 
Fu-man Shoe said:
Funny how the cheering section (with one exception) has suddenly fallen so quiet. Speak up boys, we can't hear you! :D
The training remains as good as ever. The finances remain as suspicious as ever. Instead of going the traditional way of getting outside investors, Naish raised a bunch of money by selling "memberships" which gave their owners few rights and no control over the company. It's a great way to raise money but it's easy for him to change the terms, and it sounds like he has done that. I would be upset if I had spend $200k on a piece of land there and find out that none of the improvements needed (roads, etc) have been made and it's almost unusable for the indefinite future. I would be even more upset knowing that there is an interest-only mortgage on this land so I would never be able to get a deed until that mortgage is paid. When will a six million dollar mortgage be paid? I won't speculate, at least not in writing! In any case, even if there were roads, sewers, power, and nice landscaping, it wouldn't matter because no one is going to spend another $100k to build a house on land that he doesn't have a deed to, and which is in fact heavily mortgaged by someone else. So until this $6mil is paid, it doesn't matter what physical improvements are made on the site.

One thing about this lawsuit that I don't understand is, if they win, what do they get out of it? With a $6mil mortgage there is probably no equity left in the property. Collecting cash would be difficult or impossible. The business itself has value, but if there is a big judgement, it will go into bankruptcy and all the memberships and certificates will be renegotiated and Naish would be kicked out of the business, so what would the value of it be?

Anyway, as I said, I hope FS survives this and comes out with more transparency and continues its training.
 
Quack Is as Quack Does

Hawkmoon said:
I'm going to ask you to retract that statement.

I am not a chiropractor. I was severely injured in a car accident when I was 14 years old. The medical doctors wanted to fuse my spine in several places, which would have left me with near zero flexibility and no chance of ever playing competitive sports.

Instead, my grandfather took me to see his chiropractor. I had treatments two or three times a week for 6 months, and except for occasional flare-ups when I do something stupid I've been fine (or nearly so) for more than 40 years. I played soccer, basket ball and tennis in high school, with a bit of high jumping added in. In college I played soccer, basketball, volleyball and intramural lacrosse.

The AMA wants us to think chiropractors are quacks, but they aren't. They learn about as much medicine as MDs, yet they aren't allowed to prescribe drugs.

I'm glad you were able to recover from your injuries and get some help, Hawkmoon. I've no doubt you improved while under his care. Not letting the MDs hack on a 14YO boy (most of whom heal & recover quite well) to permanently fuse vertebrae is the right default position. You can always get it done, but not reverse it, that I know of. Your gramp's instincts served you well.

Maybe the bone-crackers are different 'round your parts, but where I was born & where my grandfolks lived, they were A#1 quacks. First, they claimed ot be able to cure my one grandma's hay fever, AKA "seasonal allergies"...with adjustments over a long period of time. "Crack, bend, POP!..That'll be $75, Virginia. Don't forget your appointments are Tuesdays and Thursdays."

She might as well have become a Christian Scientist, if she was going to rely on faith to cure her allergies...in this case, faith in the chiro's quackery.

Then there was the other chiro my other grandma went to for years on a regular basis for her back problems. I always wondered if he was so effective, why she always had to go back, in perpetuity?

That is my experience with the quacks & I've no desire to give 'em a chance to scam me for my dollars. I just don't think many of the chiro's claims bear scrutiny (just like much homeopathy).

I am not calling for their regulation or any like thing. If folks want to pay them, bully for the chiros & their customers. I am against the whole prescription meds regime, so I would not care if the bone crackers suggested whatever they felt their customers needed, AMA be buggered. FWIW, I also have a low opinion of many MDs. I came across a few too many incompetent MDs while in the service to give my trust easily.

For most breaks, tears, accidents, & whatnot, a good physical therapist or fitness trainer is probably a better use of one's cash than a bone-cracker, IMO.
 
Fu-man Shoe said:
Speak up boys, we can't hear you! :D

3,000+ FS members

Three are suing.



There are 180 students enrolled in this weekend's handgun course alone, probably close to 250 in all classes including rifle, shotgun, rope and rappel, and edged weapons.

People who have actually left their keyboard long enough to take a FS course find the training to be excellent.

What other private school has 180 handgun students training this weekend?

The lawsuit will be resolved in the courts. The lawyers will no doubt be the big winners.

Take umbrage at the marketing if you will. Vow to never set foot at Front Sight. Make fun of our porta-pottys. Refuse to share our Kool-aid.:D

But have the honesty to note that those who have trained there are almost always positive about FS, while those who delight in any negative press about FS have, almost to a man, never trained or or even been there.

The quality of the training is not relevant to the lawsuit.

But reading an article about the lawsuit is not giving you anything like the full story about Front Sight.

Chuck

Disclaimer: I've been a FS member since 1999. The classes I took and the sale of some course certificates easily balanced the purchase price.
I'm now an instructor there.
The opinions expressed above are my own. The voices didn't make me type them.:evil:
 
But have the honesty to note that those who have trained there are almost always positive about FS, while those who delight in any negative press about FS have, almost to a man, never trained or or even been there.
Chuck ~

How many classes have the folks who are suing taken?

pax
 
chuck burnett said:
There are 180 students enrolled in this weekend's handgun course alone, probably close to 250 in all classes including rifle, shotgun, rope and rappel, and edged weapons.

People who have actually left their keyboard long enough to take a FS course find the training to be excellent.

What other private school has 180 handgun students training this weekend?

The lawsuit will be resolved in the courts. The lawyers will no doubt be the big winners.

Take umbrage at the marketing if you will. Vow to never set foot at Front Sight. Make fun of our porta-pottys. Refuse to share our Kool-aid.:D

But have the honesty to note that those who have trained there are almost always positive about FS, while those who delight in any negative press about FS have, almost to a man, never trained or or even been there.

The quality of the training is not relevant to the lawsuit.
Welcome Chuck. People on this board do express their opinions without reservation, so don't let that rile you. I agree: the training is excellent, and basically everyone who goes there says that, and yes, the training quality is not relevant in the suit. I read the entire complaint and nowhere in it did it say, "the instructors were unprofessional" or "they were incompetent" or even "I wasn't happy with the training." Complaints about the quality of the service are prominent in most suits where a customer is suing a business, but they are absent from this complaint. That says something about the quality of instruction.

That said, issues like the dropping prices for various memberships, the fact that platinum members may never get deeds or be able to build, and the issue of this $6mil mortgage are very serious issues. As I said above, I hope that FS comes out at the end still offering the same quality of instruction, but with more transparency as an organization and a strong financial plan.
 
pax said:
Chuck ~

How many classes have the folks who are suing taken?

pax

One of the plaintiffs mentioned on another board that he had taken 42 courses.
He was in fact in a four-day course I worked at the end of Oct.
Nice guy, great shooter, politely adamant that he had not received all the member perquisites he felt were promised him.

ElTacoGrande, thanks for the welcome.
I guess I'd just like to see a more balanced discourse. In my personal experience, the overall customer satisfaction at FS is high.
That is also irrelevant to the lawsuit per se but is an important factor in a balanced view of the issue
I too hope that something good comes out of this and we can get on with training.


Chuck
 
Here's part two of the story so far.

http://www.klas-tv.com/Global/story.asp?S=4091067

Ready...House & Home MainBefore, During and After a...Today's Mortgage Institute near Pahrump boasts some 4,000 members. People paid anywhere from $100,000 to $1,200 for a lifetime of self-defense training.
More>>


Colleen McCarty, Investigative Reporter
A Gun and a Dream, Part 2
Nov 9, 2005, 04:33 PM CST A Gun And a Dream


Investigative Reporter Colleen McCarty talks with Front Sight founder, former chiropractor Dr. Ignatius Piazza

A home on the range motivated some gun enthusiasts to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars for a one-acre lot at the Front Sight Firearms Training Institute. Now 6 years later, the promised parcels remain as desolate as they day they were secured. Prompting a class action lawsuit against the organization and its president.

The Front Sight Firearms Training Institute, near Pahrump, boasts some 4,000 members.
These are people who've paid anywhere from $100,000 to $1,200 for a lifetime of self-defense training. Memberships purchased early on were marketed as investments, but now some are finding their sure-fire deal has missed its mark.

First Family member Stacy James says, "I was flipping through the channels one evening and happened to catch a news segment about a place out in Nevada that was offering a free one day Uzi submachine gun class. I thought that sounded like a lot of fun."

One squeeze of the Uzi submachine gun had James locked and loaded. He purchased a lifetime membership, unlimited handgun, shotgun and rifle classes, the same day.

James says, "What really interested me were the full-auto classes. The Uzi, the slick fire M-16. That was a pretty high level membership, a silver. It was advertised; the one payment price at that time was $65,000. And I really wasn't prepared to come up with that day one, so I signed up for the lowest level, the copper membership."

Then in 2001, Front Sight founder, former chiropractor Dr. Ignatius Piazza put the precious metal within reach. For $50,000, the remaining balance on someone else’s defaulted membership, James went from copper to silver with the full-auto classes and the ammunition included.

James says, "It was always presented that the membership was an investment. You could take the classes you wanted and then if for any reason you decided to sell in the future. You could sell your membership at the current market price and then you would recoup your value."

But soon, the terms began to change and the prices started to drop -- dramatically. The latest lifetime membership, though not precisely the same, offers firearms training including the coveted full-auto classes, for $1,200.

James says, "Nobody’s going to buy mine, what I paid 50 thousand for to break even. No one’s going to buy it from me when there’s lots of people who paid a fraction of that." Frustrated by what he considers a string of broken promises, James brought his concerns to Piazza.

Piazza says, "From a short-sided stand point, you may see some fluctuations in prices but that doesn't mean that there aren't things that are occurring that are going to occur very shortly or even long-term that are going to make huge differences, and the people who get in and take advantage of it are going to be very, very happy."

To keep James happy, Piazza upgraded his membership from silver to gold, and claims James has already zeroed out his costs based on the retail value of the classes he’s taken. Unsatisfied, James hired attorney Keith Greer.

Greer says, "Piazza took other people’s money for investment capital to start his operation and then when he got it up and running, he hung them out to dry. Didn't follow through on the promises he made, didn't give them what they expected, didn't give them their money back."

Greer has filed a class action lawsuit on behalf of James and other Front Sight members, alleging Piazza de-frauded thousands for his own personal gain.

Investigative Reporter Colleen McCarty asked Piazza, "Do you think when you say one thing and then it changes do you start to worry that people wonder what's really true and what's really not?"

Piazza answers, "I think when people come out here and have the opportunity to see us and speak to us and see what we're doing, if they have a question they can ask it. And we'll be happy to answer it."

Piazza may one day answer those questions in court, until then, James makes the drive to Front Sight as often as he can.

Since our first story aired Monday night, we've received dozens of emails from other Front Sight members. The I-Team will continue to follow this story.





























Contact Investigative Reporter Colleen McCarty
 
Fifty thousand dollars is the *bargain* price to get a second-tier membership? It's madness. For that you could get your own Class III, your own machine gun, and your own chunk of desert to shoot it in without Ignatius or his "investmnets."

It reminds me of the old saying about a fool and his money.
 
444 sez:

The hallmark of this board is people talking out of their rear end because their mouth knows better. They don't know what they are talking about, but like to hear themselves talk, so they post.

Ooooooooooh, such cosmopolitan repartee.

How about some cheese to go with your whine? :rolleyes:

Sawdust
 
I'm hesitant to post as this has been discussed before. And I surely don't want to get into a pissin' match with 444 over FS (as that has happened before also).

But I know of three people (myself included) that did put their keyboards down long enough to take a class and weren't impressed with the training or the facilities. It was a little training with a lot of sales pitch. It's a safe bet to say that none of us will be going back to FS.

Ed
 
Off topic, but ...
The lawyers will no doubt be the big winners.
So ... do you and all the people you work with consider yourselves the "big winners" when you get your paychecks?

-
 
Janitor said:
Off topic, but ...

So ... do you and all the people you work with consider yourselves the "big winners" when you get your paychecks?

-

Oh hush, people who get payed SOLEY based on their performance are clearly being overcompensated :evil:

Its only an honest living if you get paid regardless of how good a job you personally do, BUY UNION!!!!!
 
Its only an honest living if you get paid regardless of how good a job you personally do, BUY UNION!!!!!
Ahh yes.

"A high standard of standardness"

:)

-
 
esheato said:
I'm hesitant to post as this has been discussed before. And I surely don't want to get into a pissin' match with 444 over FS (as that has happened before also).

But I know of three people (myself included) that did put their keyboards down long enough to take a class and weren't impressed with the training or the facilities. It was a little training with a lot of sales pitch. It's a safe bet to say that none of us will be going back to FS.

Ed

Ed, I have been to Front Sight several times and always been impressed with their training. I also thought the sales pitch was pretty low key. Anyway, I would be interested in hearing more about your observations and concerns about the training. What class did you take? Thanks.
 
Call me when I can get comped trips from Richmond. Until that happens I'm sticking to Vegas...the trips are free and it's a safer investment.

John

images
 
Ok, I just read through this entire post and I am confused. I know the whole Front Sight situation and the litigation. But *** is Xenu and what does Scientology have to do with it? Also it would be greatly appreciated if anybody could add any related info about Scientology. Because I don't have a clue.......
 
Almost sounds like he took out the playbook on Hiliarys Whitewater estate investiment plan. Miss one payment or be late one second and all the money paid for that property was legally considered RENT. That was just part of the problem with Whitewater.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top