Lead free hunting ammo

[wombat13]

I've taken several deer with 165 gr Barnes TSX in my .300WM. MV a bit over 3,000 fps. I am not convinced that they consistently open up on broadside heart/lung shots and switched back to lead bullets. This past season, my BIL took two deer with a 180 gr. TTSX out of his .30-06. MV about 300 fps slower than my TSX load and he had fantastic expansion on his broadside shots. The nose cavity is much larger on TTSX than on TSX. I will avoid TSX unless going for elk or bigger or unless I was intentionally going to shoot bone. I just bought a couple boxes of 150 gr TTSXs to work up a load for my .300WM because the 165 TSX was so accurate. I really want to hunt with Barnes bullets, but it has got to open fast enough.

I plan to work up mono bullet loads for all of my hunting rifles. NY DEC wants hunters to transition away from lead, and knowing this state, it is just a matter of time before lead bullets are banned. I'd rather work on this at my leisure and then buy up a good stock of bullets.

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

Years ago on a traditional muzzleloader forum one of the members did some experimenting with patched brass or bronze bearings as an alternative to lead.
I recall that the accuracy was good. Not sure how they did in game though ?
Long ago the Mexican army used copper balls in their cannons so there is some historic precedence I guess..?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Long ago the Mexican army used copper balls in their cannons so there is some historic precedence I guess..?

It was a better alternative to iron. It was more dense than the iron cannonballs and hence were gave them a ballistic advantage for distance over the US. Copper was also a raw material that they had in abundance from silver mine operations.

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

It was a better alternative to iron. It was more dense than the iron cannonballs and hence were gave them a ballistic advantage for distance over the US. Copper was also a raw material that they had in abundance from silver mine operations.

I'd also read that the balls had a blueish streak as they flew after being fired.

 

[BillWM]

Banning lead hunting bullets will not help the environment, it's not the same as shot into a pond. Too many worry about jacket separation, jackets were designed to prevent lead from melting at higher velocities. A good bonded jacket is Speer HotCor. These work very well and are not overpriced like other bullets that rely on crimping to keep the jacket to the core. Basic cup and core bullets have been around since smokeless powder. Inexpensive to produce and give excellent results in the field. Bullets claiming sharp jacket edges that cut through is nonsense. A bullet will penetrate due to velocity, not cutting petal jackets. Save cutting for arrow heads.
I've taken many deer and retrieved quite a few bullets. In muzzle loading season I use a 58 cal with a pure lead cast mini ball. I make them myself and it dropped a big 8 pointer, went through both lungs and stopped at the hide in the far side. A pure chunk of lead is all that's required, they expand and stay together better than any of these newer bullets with more advertising than proven results.

 

[zdc1775]

My preferred hunting loads are the 62gr TTSX over a max charge of Varget in .223 and the 165 gr TTSX over H4850 don't remember the exact charge weight for that one. Either way I have used the 223 on deer out to 200 ish yards and the 30-06 out to 375 with no issue whatsoever. Also doesn't hurt that those are the most accurate loads that I have found in my rifles.

 

[JimKirk]

Out of five bucks killed this past season ....four were with Barnes....three with 80 grain TTSX in .243 Win.and the other was a 110 grain TTSX in 7-08 .... the farthest went 20 steps ....

 

[Hunter 08]

I wonder if Hornady will be updating their LeveRevolution ammo to be lead free? I like the spitzer bullet design of them for my .30-30. Not sure why people think they are unsafe, I've had a fully loaded tube and never had a chain reaction due to recoil, causing one to go off in the tube.

I do keep most of my brass, though not so much with my Marlin due to some QC issue. There is a bur in the loading gate area that's been scratching the brass deep, to a point where I won't even touch it to reload in the future.

 

[Peakbagger46]

I’ve shot two mule deer (.308 win) with Barnes, one with a regular loaded 165g at 80y and one 130g with a reduced load. Both were horrible, little to no expansion and little vital damage.

If I were to try all copper again, I would go very light and very fast and limit shots to close range to help expansion.

 

[wombat13]

I’ve shot two mule deer (.308 win) with Barnes, one with a regular loaded 165g at 80y and one 130g with a reduced load. Both were horrible, little to no expansion and little vital damage.

If I were to try all copper again, I would go very light and very fast and limit shots to close range to help expansion.

Which Barnes bullet? The original X, the TSX, or the TTSX? I've found the TSX to have inadequate expansion on broadside heart/lung shots on deer and I have witnessed massive expansion on 2 such shots with TTSX (only 2 deer I've seen shot with those bullets). The TTSX has a much larger nose cavity, so it makes sense that it would open faster. I hope to have person experience with TTSX handloads next deer season.

 

[wombat13]

Which Barnes bullet? The original X, the TSX, or the TTSX? I've found the TSX to have inadequate expansion on broadside heart/lung shots on deer and I have witnessed massive expansion on 2 such shots with TTSX (only 2 deer I've seen shot with those bullets). The TTSX has a much larger nose cavity, so it makes sense that it would open faster. I hope to have person experience with TTSX handloads next deer season.

I found this post on africahunting.com (specifically https://www.africahunting.com/threads/barnes-tsx-vs-ttsx.55325/). The poster claims experience with TSX and TTSX and in multiple chamberings on hundreds of animals of all sizes and his experience is the same as my much smaller sample size. TTSX opens faster than TSX. His experience with the 130 grain TSX in .270 win matches mine with 165 gr TSX in .300 winmag. I've shot 10 deer with that load, and several ran a long ways with minimal blood trail.

Mods, please let me know if copying posts from other forums is not allowed and I will delete.

I have used both a fair amount from 243 to the 416 Rigby. I feel that the TTSX definitely opens faster.

The only real failure that I have had is the 130g TSX in 270 win. One fall I shot 4 whitetails and a coyote on a trip to South Dakota. 3 of the deer and the coyote were shot on the run. The results to shots reminded me of the past when I used FMJs to shoot fox and coyotes for fur. I shortly found that this was very misguided. I lost to many animals that went in there holes after being shot, and had ricochets that are very dangerous where there maybe something or someone over the hill.

I regress, the 130g TSX has a very small nose cavity compared to other TSX bullets I have worked with. I’m not sure why this is.

I switched to TTSX in the 270. The next year I shot a couple deer with it with very different results. Then my wife used it in SA to shoot several animals from springbuck to zebra. All 1 shot kills except a clean miss when trying to hurry a shot on a blesbuck before it re entered the trees.

I and my wife have used both the TSX and TTSX in 243, 270, 7mm mag, 300 win, 375 H&H, 375 Rum, and 416 Rigby, and the TTSX in 30/06.

After a several hundred rounds at animals from ground squirrels and pigeons to a lion, bison and buffalo. I have found that both bullets work very well in all sizes of game.

However going forward I will in general use the TTSX for thin skinned game and TSX for thick skinned game. The TTSX seems to provide faster kills on thin skinned game while the TSX seems to provide deeper penetration.

I however will not use or recommend the use of the 270 130g TSX unless they have improved the design.

 

[troy fairweather]

The hammer bullets look the best to me, I hope to try some 6.5 and 7mm soon.

 

[mcb]

The big bore TSX's do not seem to have an expansion problem.



This particular .451 diameter, 275 gr TSX encounters a medium size raccoon at a little over 1800 fps and given the exit hole and how little of the internal organ were still internal it had full expanded inside the body cavity. I found the bullet after it skimmed additional ~3 ft of forest floor turning up a furrow that look like a large mole tunnel. Weight retention was 100%. I did not recover the bullets but the armadillos I shot with the same ammo experience similar damage. I hit one armadillo with a Texas heart shot, bullet went in at the base of the tail and exited past the left ear and split all nine bands of that 9-banded armadillo. Not much of the internal organs were still internal here either. See my earlier post in the thread for what this same bullet does to deer. My 450 Bushmaster loves Barnes TSXs.

 

[wombat13]

Here is a photo of mono bullets cross section that I found by searching duck-duck-go using "tsx ttsx cross-section." Look at the difference in nose cavity diameter. Reading about people's great experience with the TSX opening and others' poor experience with TSX opening (including my experience), I think that TSX bullets in different weights and calibers have different size nose cavities. IIRC, another poster on this forum said that he sectioned TSX bullets and found different cavity diameters and that he solved his problem of lack of expansion by enlarging the nose cavity with a drill press (he wanted to keep shooting them because they were so accurate).

Also, note the much larger cavity diameter in the TTSX vs. the TSX in the photo. I bet that makes much more of a difference on expansion than the plastic tip does.

 

[wombat13]

The big bore TSX's do not seem to have an expansion problem.

View attachment 997827

This particular .451 diameter, 275 gr TSX encounters a medium size raccoon at a little over 1800 fps and given the exit hole and how little of the internal organ were still internal it had full expanded inside the body cavity. I found the bullet after it skimmed additional ~3 ft of forest floor turning up a furrow that look like a large mole tunnel. Weight retention was 100%. I did not recover the bullets but the armadillos I shot with the same ammo experience similar damage. I hit one armadillo with a Texas heart shot, bullet went in at the base of the tail and exited past the left ear and split all nine bands of that 9-banded armadillo. Not much of the internal organs were still internal here either. See my earlier post in the thread for what this same bullet does to deer. My 450 Bushmaster loves Barnes TSXs.

I don't doubt your experience at all. I'm guessing that TSX bullets of different weights and calibers have different nose cavity diameters. All I can say is that I don't trust the 165 gr., .308 caliber TSX bullet to expand on broadside heart/lung shots on whitetail deer, even when shot with MV >3,000fps from a .300 winmag. I shot 10 deer with that load and several ran a long way with little or no blood trail, including the only deer I've ever failed to recover. I've never had a deer travel more than 40 yards when hit in the heart/lungs with 180 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip, 180 grain Federal Fusion, 180 gr. Federal PowerShok, or 165 gr. Nosler Partition (10 deer total across these bullets).

ETA: I guess I've actually shot 11 deer with the 165 gr. TSX in my .300winmag, but I've only recoverd 10.

 

[mcb]

I don't doubt your experience at all. I'm guessing that TSX bullets of different weights and calibers have different nose cavity diameters. All I can say is that I don't trust the 165 gr., .308 caliber TSX bullet to expand on broadside heart/lung shots on whitetail deer, even when shot with MV >3,000fps from a .300 winmag. I shot 10 deer with that load and several ran a long way with little or no blood trail, including the only deer I've ever failed to recover. I've never had a deer travel more than 40 yards when hit in the heart/lungs with 180 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip, 180 grain Federal Fusion, 180 gr. Federal PowerShok, or 165 gr. Nosler Partition (10 deer total across these bullets).

ETA: I guess I've actually shot 11 deer with the 165 gr. TSX in my .300winmag, but I've only recoverd 10.

Yeap, that is why I stipulated big bore. I have seen very few complaints (other than price) of the .375 and larger TXS bullet failing to open. The 30 cal and smaller I have seen far more similar stories like yours. If I was going to use smaller caliber all copper I would do TTSX, LRX, or even TAC-TX (the 300 BO TAC-TX is the bar nearly all 300 BO super sonic ammo is measured against).

And on a slightly related topic I just notice the Barnes just released a TTSX for the 450 Bushmaster, both as component bullet and loaded ammo. A 250gr TTSX for my Thumper!

 

[wombat13]

Yeap, that is why I stipulated big bore. I have seen very few complaints (other than price) of the .375 and larger TXS bullet failing to open. The 30 cal and smaller I have seen far more similar stories like yours. If I was going to use smaller caliber all copper I would do TTSX, LRX, or even TAC-TX (the 300 BO TAC-TX is the bar nearly all 300 BO super sonic ammo is measured against).

And on a slightly related topic I just notice the Barnes just released a TTSX for the 450 Bushmaster, both as component bullet and loaded ammo. A 250gr TTSX for my Thumper!

I've gotten similar performance using the Barnes Expander hollow points in my muzzle loader. Of course, the nose cavity is so large in that bullet you could use it as a shot glass in a pinch. I shot a porcupine with it. When the smoke from my ML cleared, the porkie was still sitting on the branch and I thought I missed. A couple seconds later, I noticed the porkie was "smoking." Turns out, the Barnes Expander had blown such a big exit wound the smoke was actually the moisture from its body cavity condensing, like when you exhale on a cold day.

 

[somethingbenign]

I bought some federal copper ammo this past year plus a couple other premium ammo for my 243. Wasn't looking to get away from lead or anything, just wanted to try something higher quality than Remington corelok or Winchester white box. The federal copper was the most accurate out of my rifle so they are what I hunted with. Shot two deer, both my largest to date, and both deer went less than 10' before collapsing. Part of that was I lung and heart shot both but the bullet seemed to perform very well. Recovered this bullet on the second deer. Didn't weight it for retention or measure expansion, was a very uniform performance though.

 

[George P]

Just like any other ammo you will have to see what the gun likes. Good reason to start reloading,

Also a good reason to vote your hobbies/sports and oust those anti-lead folks

 

[wombat13]

I bought some federal copper ammo this past year plus a couple other premium ammo for my 243. Wasn't looking to get away from lead or anything, just wanted to try something higher quality than Remington corelok or Winchester white box. The federal copper was the most accurate out of my rifle so they are what I hunted with. Shot two deer, both my largest to date, and both deer went less than 10' before collapsing. Part of that was I lung and heart shot both but the bullet seemed to perform very well. Recovered this bullet on the second deer. Didn't weight it for retention or measure expansion, was a very uniform performance though.View attachment 997876

Federal lists three different copper bullets in their factory .243 win ammo: Barnes TSX, Trophy Copper, and Power Shok Copper. Do you know which one it is? The Trophy copper has a plastic tip, the other two don't.

 

[somethingbenign]

Federal lists three different copper bullets in their factory .243 win ammo: Barnes TSX, Trophy Copper, and Power Shok Copper. Do you know which one it is? The Trophy copper has a plastic tip, the other two don't.

I'll have to check later. I think it was the power shok but not positive. I kind of just grabbed random boxes when I started my accuracy testing. 85gr sounds familiar...

 

[schwob2]

Just a suggestion - we are forced to use lead free bullets in many areas here in Europe already since years. There have been many tests and comparisons between lead free and lead ammunition. However, I like to point out that several studies concluded that it is sensible to chemically clean the barrel before switching from lead to lead free and vice versa. There is evidence that this increases the accuracy as the barrel adjusts to the new material ....