Let the Caliber wars begin!!

[MachIVshooter]

Ok, let's say that's true. Then the .40 which operates in the same velocity range as the 9mm, but with larger diameter, heavier projectiles would be more effective. Same bullet technology of course.
str1

0.045" isn't much. Even doubling the diamter in expansion is still just a 1/10" difference.

Hence why, once again, the terminal performance of common service calibers is the same. Penetration depths are pretty similar with similar bullets, all adequate but none enough to get a through-and-through in most cases. It's not until you move up substantially, 10mm/.357 & higher, that you start seeing enough energy for an expanded bullet to be driven completely through a body. What I'm trying to tell you is that a projectile measuring .9" simply isn't going to be predictably more effective than a .7" or .8" expanded bullet hitting the same place and achieving the same penetration. But a .8" bullet that smashes through both sides of the rib cage and leaves a hole out the back side as well is going to be more effective than the same bullet which comes to rest sooner, all else being equal.

As Warp said, shot placement is king and penetration is queen. It's simple math; where handgun wounds are concerned and permanent cavities are almost exclusively tissue which is directly contacted by the bullet, the one that goes deeper wins. If you can get deeper and wider, bonus, but to do that, you're dealing with increased recoil, which is a very real concern in actual armed combat. Yes, the .50 AE is going to be more effective than the .45 ACP, as it's going to leave a gaping hole all the way through the bad guy (and probably whatever is behind him). But that is contingent on actually scoring hits; as someone who owned and shot the snot out of a Desert Eagle .50, I'll take a 9mm/.40/.45/10mm every day and twice on Sunday if I actually have to engage in a gunfight with a pistol, because I can put double or more the number of rounds down range in less time with greater accuracy.

And please, let's not get into extreme dichotomies of comparing needles with through penetration or other such silliness. No self defense firearm is expelling 18 gauge projectiles. For the purposes of these conversations, we're pretty well limited to the range of "normal" pistol bullets from .355" to .451", maybe going as far down as .30 cal and as high as .50.

 

[Valkman]

To me .45 just doesn't have much recoil, plus I've been shooting it a long time, and I reload for it. And I just plain like it. So whether I carry my XDs with 5 shots or a 1911 or a XD with a 13 rd mag I feel comfortable with it. Everyone should just carry what they like, be it .25 or whatever.

 

[1911 guy]

And just to keep handguns in perspective, the antiquated .30-30 has a whole heap more energy than even the .44 magnum from a revolver. There has yet to be a handgun or handgun ammunition made that is lightning from on high and a 100 percent fight stopper.

 

[shooter1]

True .045 is not much, but it is a difference. That's my point. It's fashionable to tout a smaller lighter bullet with no velocity advantage over a heavier, marginally larger one, as being more effective. I don't buy it.
str1

 

[C0untZer0]

Seriously though.. why is caliber always such a controversial subject?

There is evidently some strongly held and differing opinions on the subject.

 

[shooter1]

Not a big deal for me. My carry guns are from .380 to .45. Only carry the .380 as backup. Rarely carry the Glock 36 or the Kimber Ultra (Both .45.) Mostly carry a Glock 26 or 27, the 27 or a 23 gets the most carry time.
str1

 

[Traffer]

I think the only reason people prefer a 45 is the same reason they want a huge engine in a car that has to be driven at a restricted speed limit. <deleted>

 

[200Apples]

I think the only reason people prefer a 45 is the same reason they want a huge engine in a car that has to be driven at a restricted speed limit.

Heehaw. That is such a poor analogy it is nonsense.

A little history for you:

Chris Kyle, from his book American Gun, Page 157

In World War I, the [M1911 pistol] was used by many American troops in close-quarter battles in the trenches, forests, and fields of Western Europe. "The bottom line was that when Americans shot Germans with Colt .45 automatics, the Germans tended to fall down and die", wrote historian Massad Ayoob. "When Germans shot Americans with their 9mm Luger pistols, the Americans tended to become indignant and kill the Germans who shot them, and then walk to an aid station to either die a lingering death or recover completely. Thus was born the reputation of the .45 automatic as a 'legendary man-stopper,' and the long-standing Amiercan conviction that the 9mm automatic was an impotent wimp thing that would make your wife a widow if you trusted your life to it."

And as is noted earlier in his book, earlier in the chapter discussing the M1911, the .45ACP rounds' development was influenced by certain factors. .38 caliber revolvers and .30 Krag rifles proved ineffective against hopped-up Moro tribesmen deep in the jungles of the Philippine Islands, which the U.S. inherited after the Spanish-American War.

American Gun, Page 149

Our soldiers were fighting a fierce counterinsurgency war against radical Islamist Moro tribesmen. The tribesmen had a habit of charging Americans with long knives while wearing wood-and-leather body armor. [These] fanatics supposedly fought under the influence of powerful narcotics, which made them almost immune to pain. Shoot them, and they just kept coming.
Humbled by the experience, the Army... decided that American soldiers needed a larger caliber weapon on the hip. What they wanted was something that would stop a horse.
Literally.
The cavalry doctrine of the day was if you could drop a horse in its tracks, you got rid of the rider as well...

And so on and so forth. Just so you know the reasons behind the development behind the .45ACP and in the M1911. And remember too that all this transpired long before any commercial availability of JHP rounds.

 

[showmebob]

With all the talk about first shot accuracy and follow-up shot speeds, I feel first shot accuracy is the same regardless of caliber and follow up speed is variable by the shooter. Has anyone here tested how much longer it takes to make three accurate shots with a 45 caliber or 40 caliber as compared to a nine millimeter? Is this difference in time really detrimental in a defensive situation?

 

[.452]

I love my PPK/S 9mm. It's power is enough for me.

 

[LeonCarr]

With modern JHP ammunition built to FBI Wound Ballistics Penetration Standards, IME/IMO either 9mm, .40, or .45 will work if placed properly.

With that being said, can we talk about something new, like maybe .223 vs. .308?

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[adcoch1]

With all the talk about first shot accuracy and follow-up shot speeds, I feel first shot accuracy is the same regardless of caliber and follow up speed is variable by the shooter. Has anyone here tested how much longer it takes to make three accurate shots with a 45 caliber or 40 caliber as compared to a nine millimeter? Is this difference in time really detrimental in a defensive situation?

After EXTENSIVE practice with a s&w 29 I could shoot that 44mag faster than any handgun I had tried except for a 22 target pistol that produced no recoil. Shooting fast requires practice, but hitting the target first shot is better than a fast follow up shot. In my opinion anyway....

 

[Thompsoncustom]

I have guns from .22lr to 500S&W and calibers in between. To me personally it makes no difference what so ever. Bullets kill/stop things with good hits and bad shots are bad shots regradeless or caliber. Practice is the key.

 

[FireInCairo]

Unless you're talking .357 sig or 10mm, 9mm is the best viable option considering the quality of personal protection ammo available these days.

 

[FireInCairo]

9mm wins because of capacity, concealment, and chronograph tests (I had to use another "c" term, though it seems to support the argument). They're making some hot +P+ 9mm ammo these days!

 

[Warp]

Unless you're talking .357 sig or 10mm, 9mm is the best viable option considering the quality of personal protection ammo available these days.

There is nothing special about 357 sig.

 

[Bama Drifter]

In a FMJ only situation...

.45ACP beats the crap out of 9mm Luger.
HOWEVER, as 200Apples stated, that was before the advent of RA9T, 9BPLE, etc. When you ask the question of guys who are under 40, there is more acceptance of the 9mm reality. Baby Boomers, et al have a tendency to revere what they trained with and depended on (.45 Automatic), not to mention we can all be a bit defensive to justify whatever we spent $500+ on whether it is guns, tires, fancy boots, ad infinitum. As long as everyone agrees the .40S&W is a total waste of time.....

FWIW, I collect 1911s but carry a G19

 

[FireInCairo]

There is nothing special about 357 sig.

Really? I just did some research and they say it was developed off the .40 S&W cartridge, so I suppose you're correct.

 

[TRX]

A friend called last night and told me he had a gap in his caliber lineup, so he was looking to buy something in 10mm.

I told him I thought 10mm AMT Magnum was a fine cartridge, and he'd probably be very happy with it.

After a bit of confusion, it turned out he was talking about some lesser "10mm", which he'd suddenly decided wasn't nearly as desirable has it had been a few minutes before...

 

[shooter1]

Yeah, the 10mm AMT Mag is to the 10mm Mag as the 10mm Mag is to the .40 S&W and then some. Not practical for those of us requiring a practical sized pistol and readily available brass.
Wonder how many of the AMT pistols chambered for that round still exist------------.
str1

 

[grter]

Would this be a good place to discuss special ninja techniques matched with ones elite and distinguished chi of the highest authority and honor to help propel bullets faster.

 

[.452]

Some technical points just for fun:

1)Since this thread is located in TOOL:HANDGUNS and not SELF DEFENSE AGAINST HUMANS, the reader can assume that the HANDGUNS in question can and are being used in a multitude of roles from punching paper to putting meat on the table to self defense against dangerous wild animals.

2) 9mm is a caliber or diameter of a projectile, sometimes called bore. It is not a cartridge. If you mean 9X19, please say 9X19, otherwise 9mm is simply a 36 caliber bullet, which includes among many others the .380ACP, .357ACP .38 Special etc. "Big Bore" handgun calibers stated in millimeters are 9mm (all the 36 caliber bullets), 10mm (10mm Auto, .40 S&W etc), 11.5mm (all the .45 caliber bullets).

3) Since all "9mm" projectiles are roughly the same diameter, the differences between performance can only be; Bullet Design, Speed of the Bullet, Weight of the Bullet.

4) Speed of the bullet is determined by the physics of the cartridge peak pressure and gun design, while the design of the gun is what determines how much pressure the ammunition can produce and still be safe.

5) For simplicity let's compare the "lowly" .380, the .38 Special and the .357 Magnum platforms with the 9X19. For simplicity assume the exact same weight bullet.

by SAAMI specs maximum pressures are listed as:

.38 S&W 14,500 p.s.i.
.38 Special 17,000 p.s.i.
.380 21,500 p.s.i.
9X19 35,000 p.s.i.
.357 Magnum 35,000 p.s.i.
.357 Rem Max 40,000 p.s.i.

These SAMMI specs are often exceeded by +P, +P+, and wildcat loadings. Obviously if one wants to propel a 36 caliber bullet, there is a platform out there that will fit the bill. Ditto for .45 caliber and to a lesser extent the .44 caliber
The old fashioned black powder cartridges like .38 S&W, .45 Colt have much larger cases so when used with modern propellants can drive a given bullet faster than can the Auto versions, plus can make use of much heavier bullets.


6) RUF- Rules of Use of Force. I personally am a firm believer in RUF. Before it had such a catchy name I called it Graduated Force. Basically, don't take a.22 or a 9X19 on a Kodiak Bear hunt, but also don't hunt rabbits with a 12 ga. slug. An example of this is when I'm prospecting in the deep woods, I'm packing a .454 Casull. In civilized areas, it's a .380 auto.

 

[Warp]

.452, you're life will be much easier when you accept that, barring some kind of explicit statement or context saying otherwise, "9mm" = 9mm parabellum = 9mm luger = 9mm nato = 9x19 = "9mm". That's just the way it is you may as well get used to it. Also, ".45", without some kind of explicit statement or context dictating otherwise, = .45 auto = .45 ACP. "10mm" = 10mm auto. ".40" = .40 S&W. ".22"= .22lr. ".38" = .38spl or more likely for modern pistols .38spl +P.

 

[.452]

"Also, ".45", without some kind of explicit statement or context dictating otherwise, = .45 auto = .45 ACP."

An interesting statement considering a hobby that depends on precision. I guess it depends on which crowd you hang with.

 

[Warp]

"Also, ".45", without some kind of explicit statement or context dictating otherwise, = .45 auto = .45 ACP."

An interesting statement considering a hobby that depends on precision. I guess it depends on which crowd you hang with.

You are in "Handguns: Autoloaders" right now. As am I. As will be everybody who reads this. That's the "crowd"

.45 = .45 auto = .45 ACP