Lets talk about ARs

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kwelz said:
Ok 1858 I am not really sure what your problem is but this thread has been pretty civil and on course up till now.

I think my post is civil but I apologize if it's not. I asked you if your choice of AR is a life and death decision for you since you implied that it is. It's not for me because I'm not a contractor, police officer or in the military serving in Afghanistan. In fact, how many police officers have shot an AR in order to protect themselves or others? The vast majority of police officers haven't even used a handgun in that role. As for home defense, can you direct me to any articles describing the use of an AR15 by a civilian in defense of their life or the lives of others? There seem to be so many better choices for the vast majority of us that live in urban areas.

What it comes down to then is that a government issued Colt M4 has proven to be sufficient for some of the worst real-world crap anyone could find themselves in. That should be the point of reference for anyone thinking of buying an AR.
 
What it comes down to then is that a government issued Colt M4 has proven to be sufficient for some of the worst real-world crap anyone could find themselves in. That should be the point of reference for anyone thinking of buying an AR.

No it still depends on the use of the rifle. Do you think a Colt 6920 should be what someone should pick out of the bunch for varminting?

It always seems that when someone wants an AR, even when the parameters and use has been decided everyone suggests a mil-spec M4 clone.

I think the point of this thread was to differentiate between users and display that the one size fit all mil-spec AR is not for every shooter.
 
What it comes down to then is that a government issued Colt M4 has proven to be sufficient for some of the worst real-world crap anyone could find themselves in. That should be the point of reference for anyone thinking of buying an AR.

I agree with this statement 100%. I see the 6920 as the absolute minimum I will accept in an AR. However a lot of people obviously don't agree with this. They feel that saving 150 and getting a DPMS or bushmaster is a better choice. If their needs are not life and death then I guess this is ok.

There seem to be so many better choices for the vast majority of us that live in urban areas.

I would disagree here. 5.56 using the correct bullet is probably the best round for home defense. It has more stopping power than a handgun but less penetration through building material.
 
I bought mine for target at close to medium range and for home defense. I bought 2. One for myself and one for my gal who wanted to shoot with me and did not want to share guns. LOL

I did not spend a ton but, I feel my choice is of good quality and fits my needs well.

One is setup with MOE hand guard and a CTR stock with a Primary Arms Red Dot.

The other has MOE hand guard and ACS stock with a 1-4x GRSC Combat Rifle Scope and a Primary Ams Reflex Green Dot sight.

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Looks like common sense is out the window and this is yet again about AR m4 variants. I guess 16 inch combat styled ARs are the only ones ever made.
:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:
 
I would disagree here. 5.56 using the correct bullet is probably the best round for home defense. It has more stopping power than a handgun but less penetration through building material.

5.56 can go through a number of sheets of drywall before stopping. I have shot right through a steel fire extinguisher with standard 55g FMJ's.

A shotgun load would be a better choice in a populated area IMO.
 
5.56 can go through a number of sheets of drywall before stopping. I have shot right through a steel fire extinguisher with standard 55g FMJ's.
Go figure since FMJs are designed for penetration!
This thread looks like it is devolving into the usual AR run around. Next we will bring up piston systems, AKs and Minis.
 
Go figure since FMJs are designed for penetration!
This thread looks like it is devolving into the usual AR run around. Next we will bring up piston systems, AKs and Minis.

I am well aware what FMJ's are for! A 5.56 round regardless of it's bullet is still a high velocity round and even a 55g Vmax can punch through the same steel. Go figure!
 
Isn't anyone going to mention that if you promote anything other than a milspec M4 clone you obviously shoot from a bench? And also obviously shoot 200 rounds per year?

My gosh how many times have I read that.

Those are the two sayings that frost me the most.

I don't want a M4 clone. IMO the gas system is wrong, the barrel is too short, the sight radius is too short, the stock is cheesey, the cut in the barrel is rediculous on a privately owned gun, and the trigger sucks. But a MPI bolt and pressure proof tested barrel is supposed to make all that irrelevant... because as we know the "low teir" guns are all at serious risk of barrel and bolt failures, needlessly putting the lives of the owners in jepardy should they be caught carrying only their AR while on a trip to the range when an apocolyptic scenario breaks out.

Good grief.

OK I am funning just a bit above. But the accusation of "bench shooter" thing is a complete crock. Who the hell takes a bench with them out to go shooting. Even on a range there is no need to believe a guy is stuck to a bench because he prefers a 20" A2 or whatever.

I think the term "AR" has a generational conotation. I don't know when the M4 hit the streets, but I never saw one in the Army, or remember even hearing about one. To me "AR" means a 20" A1 or A2. To me it seems odd when someone asks about an "AR" and the responses are about "the best" carbine to buy.
 
i am getting an upper with the longest bull barrel i can find, putting a gas block near the muzzle and installing a a front sight there so i can have a really long sight picture..

EXTREME iron sight shooting!!

see, you can do just about anything you want with them...


(oh and my lower isnt milspec)
 
Mags said:
No it still depends on the use of the rifle. Do you think a Colt 6920 should be what someone should pick out of the bunch for varminting?

It always seems that when someone wants an AR, even when the parameters and use has been decided everyone suggests a mil-spec M4 clone.

I think the point of this thread was to differentiate between users and display that the one size fit all mil-spec AR is not for every shooter.

Mags, I said "point of reference", not choice. The reason I say that is simple. The amount of data available for the Colt M4 is unsurpassed by any other AR15 variant. You can do a little research and find standards pertaining to accuracy, barrel life, rate of fire, dust tests, field tests, general reliability,breakages, maintenance and service guidelines etc. When you consider that any database for the M4 is based on a huge data set, the numbers become more meaningful. Each of us can then decide how our intended use(s) relates to how the Colt M4 is or has been used and make an informed decision. I have four ARs set up the way I like/need. They're all different in some way or another.
 
5.56 can go through a number of sheets of drywall before stopping.
So will 9mm JHP, but .223 jacketed hollowpoints or softpoints in the 55- to 62-grain weight range will generally penetrate fewer of them than 9mm will. Check out the performance of the 55gr SP here:

http://www.how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html

My own preference is Federal T223E 55gr JHP, which is on the less-penetration end of the spectrum.

I think the term "AR" has a generational conotation. I don't know when the M4 hit the streets, but I never saw one in the Army, or remember even hearing about one. To me "AR" means a 20" A1 or A2. To me it seems odd when someone asks about an "AR" and the responses are about "the best" carbine to buy.
Well, this is an AR carbine, but not an M4gery:

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16" barrel, midlength gas system, heavy barrel profile without M203 cuts, Vortex flash suppressor, commercial receiver extension, Hogue grip, civilian charging handle (BCM Gunfighter), civilian rail setup, etc. That's no M4 clone, but it is an "AR", e.g. an AR-15 type rifle.

The problem with using "M4" as a designation for civilian carbines is that "M4" generally refers to a fairly specific configuration that's less popular now than it used to be (government profile barrel with M203 cuts, carbine length gas system, etc.). Most 16" barreled AR's aren't M4gerys.
 
i am getting an upper with the longest bull barrel i can find, putting a gas block near the muzzle and installing a a front sight there so i can have a really long sight picture..

EXTREME iron sight shooting!!

see, you can do just about anything you want with them...


(oh and my lower isnt milspec)

Put a low pro gas block in the middy spot. Then put another gas block/sight at the tip of the barrel.

That way you have your sight out forward where you want it. But your gas port is where it belongs.

I think it's called a "Dissy", "Dissipator", or something.
 
I suppose I am closest to a semi-serious shooter, by your initial account.

But the real reason I have an AR is because I wanted an accurate & dependable rifle with easily replaced/repaired parts. (It replaced a bolt action in my line-up.) In my parlance, "accurate rifle" precludes carbines.
 
What most shooters miss is tailoring the gun to what they need to do.

Too often discussions deteriorate into milspec vs the world, Brand Name fanaticism, and whether the gun will help you survive Life and Death.

Well, step back from the keyboard, take a deep breath, and think about it - for once.

If you need Job X done, it has specific requirements. In guns, that is putting enough bullet on target. Still a big range of jobs with the AR, just as there are a wide range of them, from sub 10" pistols to 24" varmints in target calibers. Most discussions go astray because the task is not clearly delineated - nobody really knows what the OP plans to do with it. And, neither does he. It's that sad.

Once Job X is known, then you can start sorting out what is needed. This is the order to do it, barrel and caliber, upper, optic, furniture, trigger, whether it's an AR or not. Match them to the job, in that order, and you get a gun that will help you succeed, not hinder you. Unlike what we see on the net, which is frequently bass - ackwards.

For most AR shooters, the 5.56 does fine for most of the list, until you get to hunting. At that point, state regulations apply. You WILL use an alternate caliber, no choice of that, just which one. How far your target is does dictate barrel length. It's a matter of imparting the required amount of energy to reach the outer limit of the job. Too many shooters pick a barrel longer than they need just to have an edge. What they need to do is rethink what power level they really want as an answer. 100 fps plus or minus is the ragged edge of range, and their marksmanship is likely to make more difference.

Most of us now use the A3 flattop upper. It's versatility for optics should be obvious. If someone deliberately chooses and A1 upper, it's limitations should be obvious, too. Mounting optics on it is at best a secondary role, and not the best choice. It's a retro build, not a modern firearm. What optic should match 85% of what you could potentially encounter FOR JOB X, not a what-if scenario. Far too many shooters get large magnification, when in fact they rarely practice at the extreme range and can't calculate bullet drop or estimate windage. Too much scope also means not finding the target quickly, as the field of view is so narrow.

Furniture is a huge market, and largely a waste of money for most shooters. Adjustable stocks may be nice, but the right length of pull for Job X is what most set them at. And some judicious shopping, instead of following the herd, would get them that. Too many are riding the M4gery fad, and spending $250 on a free float, when in reality it cannot and will not make the gun shoot any better than the inherent accuracy of the barrel. If it's milspec, it's 2 MINUTES OF ANGLE. You don't make it 1/2 MOA screwing on a bunch of doodads, and it's deliberately misleading to suggest it.

Same for the trigger. We've gotten spoiled with civilian target gun triggers on our bolt actions, in reality, the AR is a military knock about gun, and it's pull is set at 6-8 pounds because of it. Nothing wrong with cleaning it up, and a simple overtravel screw, which most better triggers have used for 50 years, will accomplish that. Because of the design, you can't simply install lighter springs and get the same reliability. It's a trade off, and shooter's need to be aware that light triggers on the AR are potentially capable of not hitting the primer hard enough. So much so, most tactical triggers built redesign the leverage of the pivots to compensate. On a standard LPK, that disadvantage remains.

If more AR enthusiasts would look at what they plan to do with the gun, and then select barrel and caliber, upper, optic, furniture, and trigger with a bit more common sense, there would be more appreciation for how it does the job. You can still spend $2400 for a dirt plinker or pickup truck gun, at least it would be made for the job, not some of the cross bred dachshunds/german shepherds posted up in ignorance.

Me, I built mine for hunting medium North American game. The ranges are from 25 to 350m. A midlength 6.8SPC 16" barrel, A3 upper, red dot optic, A1 stock, TD battle grip, rifle length handguards, GI FSB at rifle length. Foliage green. I don't sling up for a shot.

Specify Job X, build to it. If you want the latest techno toy, I can imagineer that, too. 14.5" .300 BLK., carbine gas, CMMG side plate upper with dual FA, Trigicon optic, Emod 5 stock, MIAD, KAC quad rail, Surefire suppressor and light. Don't forget the 100 round quad stack mags.

Easy when you do it right.
 
There are a few different thoughts on ARs.......

It may have been said somewhere above, but I think your classes of "AR owner" often blur. For instance, there are plenty of "serious shooters" who are also excellent competition shooters. And the very good ones are no less serious about that than their day jobs; equally some soldiers who enjoy going out plinking with their friends; it doesn't particularly make their requirements any less "serious". I think that no-one wants (or should be accepting of) an unreliable rifle, or a really inaccurate one - regardless of cost. Heck, even if I was a "safe queen" person, I'd personally want that rifle to be 100% should I need it. Yet more people will want perhaps their one and only rifle to do everything - serious when needed, fun when not, works for occasional competition but will also double as home defense.

Given that my BRD is quite advanced these days, I wouldn't dream of ever buying another fully assembled rifle, "top tier" or not, because I'd sooner trust myself to assemble it than anyone else. It is worth bearing in mind that most of your top tier AR15 companies are really only assemblers themselves.

I feel that what matters more than blind trust in any particular brand names is fully understanding how your rifle works, how to maintain it and and generally knowing how to make the best use of what you have got; which basically means going out and shooting your own individual rifles a lot - the only real true way of proving them regardless of brand name.
 
While I agree with Tirod that people would all do well to have a vision or plan in mind for their AR when they spec it out, I do think we sometimes give undue criticism when a poster is wanting a "do everything" gun.

The simple fact of the matter is that most firearms are capable of being used successfully in situations they have no business succeeding at. In fact, many gun owners take great pride in that. By way of example, hitting targets at 100 yards with J-Frames, 1000 yard shots with the .223, hunting Elk in wide open areas with short range cartridges, taking down large game with .22LR, etc.

The AR can be highly specialized, but there is an awful lot one can do with a simple milspec 16" gun. They excel in a defensive role, but with good ammo and a medium power scope, they are perfectly capable of short to midrange varminting and are excellent for plinking. Throw in heavier ammo on 1:7 twist and you gain even more versatility. Again, not ideal, but this setup is versatile enough to satisfy a large variety of needs as long is one is willing to accept the limitations.
 
I had no idea that if you don't have a purpose built AR you were looked at like a idiot?

I guess some people are who they are by no fault of their own!
 
I'm mostly utilitarian regarding "tools" at this stage of owning guns. Statistically, I may not ever need use it for SHTF, but it would be naive of me to take reckless comfort in that.

Secondly, I'd love multiple ARs for different functions and calibers. That's the collecting part of me. It's my hobby, and it protects me from one of the greatest foes of humanity...

...BOREDOM.
 
Lots of folks would be better off researching a proper diet than AR-15 accessories. I'd rather have a Colt 6520 with no modifications and be of proper weight than have a better rifle and be fat.

There's not much confusion in my mind about what rifle to buy. Everybody should just buy a Colt, or better. They're not very expensive relative to other brands even. It's not like a Ferrari vs. Corvette situation.
 
"Colt only" can satisfy a lot of needs, but it's a major FAIL when hunting in a 5.56 restricted state.

Goes to my point - choose a brand name first, you cannot always get a tool that meets the needs. A 6920 is a good, versatile gun, but in an illegal caliber in some states for hunting. It's way too big as a PDW, that's a less than 14.5" role, and won't reach out and set 600m records for accuracy. The 6.5G or 6mm PPC calibers do that in 20'+ precision guns. A 6920 won't get very far doing that.

Let's get specific - if Job X is an all around gun for use by any shooter in America, the 6920 remains out of the game. Not even counting the AWB stupidity, the caliber won't pass muster for hunting in all 50 states. Do you care, maybe not, but 75 million tags are sold annually, hunting IS the gun users market. If it's an all around gun, it hunts.

Most hunters use scopes, that means an A3 flattop. All around, for plinking, etc, a scope is better, and back up iron sights make it even more all around. A fixed front sight base on the AR is the most reliable and cheapest to use, especially if it's pinned. A carry handle rear sight will not accomodate an optic. Wrong rear sight on the 6920.

You don't need a free float on an all around gun, and a fixed stock will do.

M203 barrel cuts? NO LONGER MILSPEC on the newest model. They were a compromise from day one and a committee decision, not the greatest improvement ever. On a 16" barrel, carbine gas is NOT the answer, that's for military 14.5" and shorter issue guns. 16's need midlength - which reduces stress on the BCG and bolt, has less bolt bounce, and feeds more reliably as demonstrated in high speed video. Shooters use the softer recoil impulse to get back on target quicker, and make more hits. That's superior for all around work.

Meaning, the 6920 has a number of shortcomings just looking at all around use. It's not built with the optimum features - it's just a compromise of issue parts and civilian marketing demand. Doesn't make it junk at all, but for the purposes of this example, it's not at the top of the list of all around. Not hardly.

What makes it nice is that it can still do most of the job, just accept the limitations and stay in it's lane.

Define what you want the gun to do, then get the barrel and caliber, upper, optic, furniture, and trigger you need to execute the task. No one gun will Rule Them All, each is tailored to something, it might as well be what YOU do with it, not the Marketing Department's latest ad campaign to move a bunch of high profit fashion toys.
 
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