the gritty truth about accuracy...

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Just b/c non infantry soldier's don't learn how to shoot iron sights, doesn't mean the REAL soldiers on the ground who do 90+% of the fighting don't still train it. We taught iron sights, zero them, and shoot them as well as shooting optics. The emphasis now is definitely on the optics and for good reason. 99% of the time your optics are working and they're what you're using, not the back up iron sight.

Look up squad designated marksman(SDM) school. We taught students to shoot M4's to 600 yards shooting iron sights with regular FMJ ammo. Once they can do that we moved on to optics.

Every squad in the 82nd ABN infantry should have at least one SDM qualified person.
 
If someone is planning to be a long term precision shooter, mastering iron sights teaches a lot.

The Army doesn't have the time, money, or manpower to waste. It's red dots from here on out. They DO work better. Taking a new shooter who never handled a firearm and make them a qualified shooter in a few short days on the range is what happens. Basic Training has to deal with the most untrained soldier and getting them up to a minimum standard.

They have done the same for the drivers - all automatic transmissions. No time to take a urban transit rider and teach them all the finesse of double clutching a diesel transmission over rough terrain.

Asking a new shooter to learn iron sights is like asking a new driver to learn driving without power steering, brakes, or automatic. It makes the learning curve very steep - and taxpayer dollars finance it. No thanks. It's a wasted effort, especially if it's not their primary occupation.

What we would like to do and what we can afford to do affects us all.
This is why I chose the Marine Corps (one of 100's of reasons) over the ever declining standards of the Army.
 
So the Army has skipped iron sight training altogether?

Please do not tell me that the Marine Corps has also done so.

If the Marine Corps now skips iron sights, I don't even want to know. It would sicken me.
The Marine Corps has not skipped their traditional iron sight marksmanship in boot and never will, the marksmanship training of the Marine Corps is far supior (TODAY) than any other branch of the U.S. Military. This is a fact, not an opinion.
 
As a branch I wouldn't argue that in the slightest. For marksmanship, Marine Infantry vs Army Infantry I think you'd be quite surprised. :) Would be interesting to see a comparison done.
 
posted by ar27 " The Marine Corps has not skipped their traditional iron sight marksmanship in boot and never will, the marksmanship training of the Marine Corps is far supior (TODAY) than any other branch of the U.S. Military. This is a fact, not an opinion. "

Could you provide a source for this fact please?
 
posted by ar27 " The Marine Corps has not skipped their traditional iron sight marksmanship in boot and never will, the marksmanship training of the Marine Corps is far supior (TODAY) than any other branch of the U.S. Military. This is a fact, not an opinion. "

Could you provide a source for this fact please?
Look up the rifle qualifications for each service. I am speaking of qualification at boot were you learn marksmanship. It is blatantly obvious. Most know this as a fact, the Marine Corps' standards are higher.
 
Look up the rifle qualifications for each service. I am speaking of qualification at boot were you learn marksmanship. It is blatantly obvious. Most know this as a fact, the Marine Corps' standards are higher.
See the issue is, if you are going to post something and claim it as "fact" then YOU have to prove said "fact". It is not on other members to prove your point. That is your responsibility.
 
Oh we're just talking boot. I didn't realize that, thanks. I would dispute that the measure of a service probably isn't contained to just their basic training standards, but I was just curious if you had some other information.

I'm off topic for the OP anyway :)

Thanks
 
The qualifications are NOT comparable in the slightest. The style of "qualifications" are apples to oranges.
 
The Marines still use iron sights out to 500 yards in basic. The US Army infantry does not shoot past 300 meters.

The Marines use paper targets that don't lie. The Army uses falling targets that fall if hit anywhere and sometimes they fall if they are not even hit. They re-qualify at 25 meters.

Anyone claiming the Marines don't have the edge in real shooting skills is an idiot.
 
I can take almost anyone and teach them to qualify "expert" in the US Army in a day or two.

Not that way in the Marines. A Marine that qualifies as expert is close or as good as a good NRA highpower shooter.
 
Now back to the real subject. Until you accept the fact that bench shooting teaches you almost nothing about real world shooting and you forget that a bench even exists you will never learn to shoot.

If all you know is bench shooting you know almost nothing about real shooting.
 
mythbuster (with respect):

are you suggesting that every marine out there is better than any member of any other branch based solely on the standards and techniques presented in basic training?

It may be possible to say they have a better program than other services, but it must be nearly impossible to make a realistic assesment of an entire fighting forces accuracy.

If you have the resources, I'd be interested in cited answers to the following in regards to marines vs whoever:

1. Number of personnel whose primary occupation is rifleman
-Those peoples accuracy with a variety of weapons at a variety of distances on a variety of targets (meets standards doesn't work for an answer)

2. Number of specially designated marksmen
-Those peoples accuracy with a variety of weapons at a variety of distances on a variety of targets (meets standards doesn't work for an answer)

3. Number, type and wins of shooting competitions entered into by each service.

I'm not suggesting these statistics exist anywhere or that any of them would translate into combat accuracy. What I am suggesting is calling other people idiots when your own conclusion is founded on one, maybe two pieces of information is likely presumptuous.

off topic, so I'll be done here. probably needs to be its own thread if this is to continue.
 
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Since we have taken a stroll down military lane, in our quest for an answer to accuracy, I feel a need to show some pride in my young Marine's shooting prowess.

My son has shot "Expert" in both pistol and rifle in every qual to date. This is no small achievement, since Marine quals are indeed harder than other military branches, as has been mentioned. I don't want to defame any of our soldiers, sailors or airmen, but the Marines simply do have stiffer marksmanship requirements.

2xexpert.jpg


Signed,

Proud Marine Dad
 
Now back to the real subject. Until you accept the fact that bench shooting teaches you almost nothing about real world shooting and you forget that a bench even exists you will never learn to shoot.

If all you know is bench shooting you know almost nothing about real shooting.

Not all of us are shooting to defend our country, some of us do other things for a living;) Shooting is a sport in this country, and there are many different forms of it, to each his own. Benchrest shooting where the guy oils up the forend, and the 20+lb gun slides like its on a rail, may not be for some of us, but its still shooting. The OP is a young kid, learning the frustration of inconsistant shooting techniques, but is still a shooter, enjoying the good that comes with the bad.

saxrulez,
Great timing:D
 
the truth for me is i probably average 3"-4" groups at 100yds. standing, iron sights, surplus ammo in my 2 m1a's & mini 14. i just recently decided to get some optics, so i look forward to seeing what she will do with a scope. most of the guys at work golf, and enjoy the challenge of trying to get better. me i do the same only with rifles. this is my first year really starting to learn how to be a rifleman and although challenging its very enjoyable. i do have a long way to go.
 
I think some issue people have with accuracy isn't always the fundamentals of shooting.
I have some guns that do not get cleaned until they show signs of accuracy deteriorating. My .25-06 for instance. It shoots good groups clean, but around 15 shots it starts to tighten up really nice. It goes great for about another 200 or so rounds. Then the groups start to open back up again. I use coated bullets with this rifle. Cleaning it just takes away from its accuracy.

I also have a 30-30 Marlin. It doesn't shoot worth a crap clean. I never clean it, and it shoots awesome.

I also have other rifles and pistols that like to be clean, and start to wander after several shots. You have to get to know your guns as well as know how to shoot them.
 
Wow, I cant wait until Im 18, so I can go into the "easy" army, and the also "easy" ranger introduction program, thanks for clearing it up Mythbuster. But I dont care what you think about how good the marines are and how "easy" the army is.
Maybe you could take me and show me how to qualify expert.. Or maybe you could realize your shooting your mouth off and pissing off a few people.
And I would bet cold cash alot of the shooters in the AMU or just really good Infantry could shoot better than you.
 
Wow, I cant wait until Im 18, so I can go into the "easy" army, and the also "easy" ranger introduction program, thanks for clearing it up Mythbuster. But I dont care what you think about how good the marines are and how "easy" the army is.
Maybe you could take me and show me how to qualify expert.. Or maybe you could realize your shooting your mouth off and pissing off a few people.
And I would bet cold cash alot of the shooters in the AMU or just really good Infantry could shoot better than you.
Sorry you got all mad that someone posted facts. I regret to inform you that the Army is ever declining all of its standards. Just visit a Army recruiter when your of age and you will get a pretty good idea. I always wanted to enlist in the Corps but visited an Army recruiter once (thats all it took) to see what their about. All they did was say how much crap they will GIVE, it was all about I and none of WE as in the branch. I asked about Airborne and Rangers and he said yep, we can get those for you, right in the contract after boot or ait or whatever. That alone says something, how special is it if anyone can get a chance automatically to do it, and everybody is walking around with jump wings? I know you want to be a sniper as well and that can be put in a contract also according to the recruiter i talked to, i know in the corps you actually have to earn that, at least 1 combat tour and must qualify as expert.

I knew a guy from high school that had three felonies of violent and drug crimes. He went to the USMC recruiter and was told to leave. He went down the hall to Army recruiter and they pulled some strings to get his record cleared and was reffered to army infantry by the recruiter. Doesnt that say something?

On the news the other day Sal Giunta was being interviewed about his medal of honor, and he was wearing F**king Army ACU's, same stuff they were in the field, IN THE WHITE HOUSE. Nothing against Sal Giunta he is an american hero, thats just the Armys standards and i believe it has something to say about discipline as well.

As for the guy who posted the Sniper Competition, notice its all special forces and the amu who spend every waking minute and tons of funds on sniper training? They were competing against battalion level snipers from the Corps, ie sta platoons, i know it says with held but the corps rarely if ever sends marsoc/force recon to those events, i know from first hand experience in the present day marine corps. Also no one is shooting back. So your little competion means moot.

I seem to remember in 2004 investigators were called into Fallujah to see if the marines were executing people. The reason they thought this was because of the HUGE numbers of headshots on the enemy. Turns out its just exceptional marksmanship. This is REAL combat, not a on base competition.

Also future army ranger you are displaying your age by saying you bet someone you dont know can shoot better than someone else you dont know.

Now all that being said, I mean no dis-respect to the soldiers of army as they are still an exceptional group of men who defends the nation just like the marine corps does. Its just that the Armys current policies and standards leave something to be desired, they have reverted from past traditions.

Also I want to add that I hear alot of guys your age who all want to be this special forces/scout sniper commando. The current influx of tv shows (like surviving the cut), internet videos, and video games are showing all this training and make it look badass, they show combat videos with patriotic music and people waveing the flag supporting them. This is the big motivation for most guys your age who want to be some commando. (I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS YOU, I DONT KNOW YOU PERSONALLY.) The truth is war is not like that, there are no patriotc songs and badass zip line commando type crap going on like you see in the media. It is HELL. Many people seem to think its badass and cool to kill someone to, well its not, its awfull and nothing to be desired. You WILL remember that for your entire life, worse yet is when your buddy gets his head blown off in front of your eyes, its horrific and no one who has experienced this thinks its cool anymore. Also when i got home there was no parade, no flag wavers, no thank yous, just same old people living their lives, no one gave two s**ts about it.

You seem like a really cool kid for your age and remind me alot of my 17 year old brother from what i can tell of your posts, i think its great you want to serve, just make damn sure its for the right reasons. Also good luck with your howa groups, i know you like em tight. :)
 
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Well this thread if anything has covered a lot of ground from fliers to reticles to unadulterated military branch bashing.

Now far from me to advocate Gestapo like moderation but honestly I'm rather surprised this thread has remained unlocked cause if ever a thread deserved to be beaten liberally with the moderator lock stick it's this one in it's current state.

In other words IBTL!!
 
FWIW, The competitors in the Army Marksmanship Unit consistently take top honors at a lot of practical 3gun matches and, as I understand it, High Power as well.

I'm, frankly, hard pressed to think of even a single time when Daniel Horner of the AMU didn't take first place at some of the most difficult and prestigious 3gun matches held in this country, so clearly there are Army shooters who know what they're doing.
 
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