the gritty truth about accuracy...

[unwise11]

when we go to the range we usually get there in a good mood, setting up our sandbags, our bipods, and taking our targets down to the line.
We get back, and look through our bags and wonder what ammo to try first, and wait for everyone to get back to the firing line or such.
we look over our rifle, and fiddle with the action some.
once everyone is back at the line and it's called hot. we get our ears on, and get in firing position.
your breathing right, your cheek weld is good, perfect scope picture, you get to the point where you are ready. we load our rifles, and get steady enough to fire, and that first shot hit 2" above bullseye, If you feel like it, some of us will dry fire practice between shots.
once you get ready to take the next shot, we steady again.
fire. but the shot hit 3" to the left. why?
you start to go over it in your head. why? how? was it me? gun? ammo?
and feel yourself a bit frustrated. I know I do.
and I do things a bit faster.
load the second shot, steady, fire.
bullseye.
you have a bad group in front of you. but what do you do? panic? no..
just get up, let the rifle cool, and grab another box of ammo.
we repeat this throughout the time there. and leave happy sometimes. but sometimes not.
you look over your targets, and see the 2" and 3" groups that were a good bit of the day. but see that .5" group you shot at 100 yards. and maybe that 1.5" at 200.
you smile, its great. good shots.
when we arrive home, or at least when I do, I clean my guns thoroughly, and then post on THR about my day.. but we dont always tell about the 2" and 3" groups. just the good ones. right? I have done that before.
So when a new member and shooter sees nothing but good groups, but can't get them every try, he thinks something is wrong.
but he has a false sence about accuracy, Its not always there.
so he goes home and gets on THR, and only posts the good groups.
for another new shooter to see, and possibly be discouraged by..
thats the truth in most cases.. about accuracy..

I wrote this because of a range experience yesterday where I felt the truth needed to be told.. I have posted some good groups. and some bad. but when it all comes down to it thats how it is for most of us. some good, some bad..
that is all. and my opinion. please share yours.

 

[22-rimfire]

A lot of factors impact your ability to shoot well on a given day. There is truth in what you state. One day you shoot well and the next day you don't. One-hole groups at whatever range are always something to strive for. Honestly, the only one-hole groups I shoot are with a 22LR rifle, or a 22 handgun at close range.

 

[sarduy]

4.5'' group at 100 yards with my ak yesterday using surplus ammo... yeag i know it sucks

 

[R.W.Dale]

Not to be confrontational but you currently have a match going where you allow folks to discount one "flier" out of every group.

If that isn't enabling a false sense of accuracy I don't know what is

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=415997&highlight=reporting

wait for everyone to get back to the firing line or such.
we look over our rifle, and fiddle with the action some.
once everyone is back at the line and it's called hot. we get our ears on, and get in firing position.

please tell me you're NOT messing with your firearms while folks are downrange

 

[jon86]

Thanks for the honesty. I don't have a "tack-driver" rifle, but with my AR and iron sights I can hit a 6 inch plate pretty consistently at 125 yards... I can't make a group tighter than 3 inches to save my life though.

Krochus, that line stood out to me as well.

 

[Walkalong]

Everyone has good and bad days, along with average days. That is one reason I just shake my head (and sometimes want to bang it on the wall) when someone posts four groups shot with four loads and pronounces one better than the other. It's one group. Gimme a break. Start shooting some aggregates and get back with us.

Yep, I can take my Bench gun, in good conditions, using wind flags, with a known good load, and positively stink it up. No problem at all.

But some days, I can look like a big dog.

Same with stock rifles and pistols.

Some days I discount all my accuracy testing in pistols (offhand) because I just plain stunk that day. :banghead:

When things are too easy, there is no fun in succeeding. Like Tom Hanks said, "It's the hard that makes it great!" Of course he was talking about baseball, but one the point is similar.

 

[BrocLuno]

I agree whole-heartedly. That's a typical range session. But I'm a senior citizen (barely ) and I'm tickled pink with 2" groups. 3" and above makes me slow down. I'm looking for hunting accuracy, not high score target stuff. I'm not doing much hunting right now, but I don't like to loose an animal because I goofed

Flyers happen - who knows? Only guy I ever met who never missed was my step father (now 91) and he was/is a magician with a rifle or shotgun. One deer died this fall - one shot. You do not want to shoot against him whether it's clays or real pigeons, deer or milk bottles. He seconded a lot of guys - always bet that if a follow-up shot was needed, he'd do it and the meat was his. He got a fair bit ONLY accuracy he was interested in - period - was cold barrel first round.

 

[Sebastian the Ibis]

If you want to make some money. Practice with an ugly beat up, but accurate, AK and practice with it so that you know exactly where your zero is and how much to compensate at close range. Then look for suckers arriving at the range with tricked out AR's and a mess of other guns - esp. pretty 1911's and revolvers with laser sights. And bet them that your AK will outshoot their $2,500.00 prancing pony/fancy optic setup, before they start shooting with their AR. You will win with the iron sighted AK 9 times out of 10, because based upon my humble observation only about 10% of optics being taken out of range bags are properly sighted in. Most people arriving a the range fire off a box of ammo re-acquiring their zero, then count what they are shooting. If he brought bunch of guns, he probably cannot shoot any of them.

Conversely the old guy with only an iron sighted marlin .22 a worn shooting mat and notepad.... he can shoot. He'll shoot circles around your group figuratively, while the prancing pony will do it literally.

 

[Welding Rod]

When really scrutinizing accuracy, my experience is the randomness of results is due to 5 major factors:

!. The shooter: Skill limitations, eye sight limitations, and holding technique issues.

2. The wind: Shooting for consistant best small groups in even relatively light gusting conditions is folly.

3. The ammo: You can't determine the accuracy of a gun to a point any greater than the repeatability of the ammo. You can't determine the accuracy of the best gun with standard ammo. At best all you can determine is the accuracy level of the ammo.

4. Barrel heat: Barrels move as they heat and the shooter must control the heat to the point the gun will perform acceptably and consistantly.

5. The optic: Isn't capable of allowing shooter to see 1/4 MOA, or 1/8 MOA or to whatever level he expects to shoot repeatedly. If optic limitations only allows repeatability to say 1/2 MOA, the results with the best gun will be all over the place.


If a shooter does his part, doesn't shoot for groups during gusting wind, uses premium ammo with premium bullets, doesn't shoot for groups with massive variation in barrel heat, and uses an optic that is cabable well beyond the limits of the gun, the results should be close to the best the gun is capable of, and be repeatable.

If a shooter ignores any of those factors the groups will not be repeatable. However that does not necessarly indicate that the gun isn't capable of consistantly delivering the best group achieved on a "good" or "bad" day, only that the shooter decided to shoot under conditions when the gun's capablility could not be realized. It does NOT mean that the gun can only really be counted on to deliver whatever the worst group was.

If a shooter is attempting to shoot for small groups on paper and doesn't want to be disappointed, or wants to determine the real accuracy potential of a gun, they simply must observe the 5 items above.

If a shooter disregards the 5 items above and gets 1 good group and a day's worth of bad ones, the gun may well be capable of repeatedly delivering much better than his 1 good group of the day.

 

[Floppy_D]

please tell me you're NOT messing with your firearms while folks are downrange

Well, he was told not to play with 'em: click

 

[amlevin]

Shooting is a sport that you never truly master. Every day at the range is different and the results likewise. That's the very fact that keeps me coming back, year after year. Been trying to "perfect" my style and accuracy for over 61 years now. Who knows, maybe before I reach my "expiration date".

 

[Slamfire]

when we arrive home, or at least when I do, I clean my guns thoroughly, and then post on THR about my day.. but we dont always tell about the 2" and 3" groups. just the good ones. right? I have done that before.


and only posts the good groups for another new shooter to see, and possibly be discouraged by. thats the truth in most cases.. about accuracy..

That's what I do. Cherry pick the best, trash the rest. Can't brag about poor targets.

It has gotten so bad I post one shot targets. That way a second shot won't ruin the illusion of accuracy and precision.



The older I get, the better I was.....

 

[JDGray]

I wrote this because of a range experience yesterday where I felt the truth needed to be told.. I have posted some good groups. and some bad. but when it all comes down to it thats how it is for most of us. some good, some bad..

This is why I post all the shots in a particular range session. I pulled a group from your flier match that measured .204" for 5 shots. I was not able to ever repeat that tight of group again. The gun does average .5 moa groups however, and is why you have that target in your match. If it wasnt for the cold bore in the first group shot, it would have topped the .204" group And fliers count in my book!!

 

[unwise11]

this has gotten alot of reactions. I accidentally placed a period
"fiddle with the action some."<--- there. it should say
and fiddle with the action some once everyone is back at the line and it's called hot.
there, I apologize for the error. and this isnt about fliers.
If you dont want to call a flier in the match you dont have to.
I was just channeling an opinion.

 

[R.W.Dale]

In my view a good group without fliers is a good group, a bad group is a bad group and a good group with a flier is nothing more than a bad group.

Nowhere in the real world hunting, competition or martial will you get to discount a flier. In those applications they're called misses.

 

[Coal Dragger]

Yep, Krochus is right. A dropped point(s) or a miss are just that and nothing more. There are no Mulligans in competitive shooting, at least not after you declare that you are done taking sighting shots.

I wish I could have discounted some shots in competition, or course if that were possible a shooting match would never end. Everyone would be throwing out their bad shots until a perfect 200/20x score was obtained.

 

[unwise11]

im so sorry I allow a flier.
gosh. I'm ridiculous.

not.
Im not trying to say you are wrong. If you like not having a flier that is great. but some people appreciate it.

 

[dubbleA]

Well the truth is the internets has made alot of wizards of the accuracy game. I have been shooting for a long time and I just have to chuckle inside when I see a post like " I can shoot one holers through my_________ all day long" or posting a single 3 or 5 shot group can say this is how ______ shoots all the time. Like I said, been doing this a long time and will admit it's not easy getting great accuracy every single outing, there are just to many variables.
To get consistant accuracy you have to be consistant in every thing you do, from natural point of aim, cheek pressure , grip pressure, trigger control, follow through, having great ammo, known rifle accuracy etc.

A real good test to show others about your and your firearm's ability is to shoot 4-5 or 6 five shot groups, count every shot( no flyers allowed) on a single target face. No cherry picking on this one as you account for every hole. I have not seen this done alot other than a few folks like 1858 and JDGray. I wish more did this after all I see alot of claims that this can be done all day long.


Here's an example..... the target below I shot on 11/25/10 with 10-15 mph L-R winds at full value. I was trying a few different loads in my 204 Ruger after I posted a tiny group on jdmorris's contest . I did make a mistake by shooting at #1 instead of # 4 and the red arrow shows the shot. I included it in the measurement anyway, which actually made it bigger. Group 2 was shot with a .4gr more powder that my standard load and didnt do well.This did make #4 a 4 shot group but over all you can see what me and the rifle were capable of at least on that day. It shoot's .3's and .4's but overall averages .5's .

*** a note on flyers*** IMHO there is no such thing, I feel the same way on cold bore shots.
I have to ask this.... why are the "flyers" people call always the one(s) furtherest from the "group"??? Like I said I have been shooting paper a long time and know quite a few times that when I pulled the trigger I wasnt doing something right, whether trigger control, breathing etc and the shot should have went astray but it didnt. Are you supposed to count them as "flyers"? Again, why are the flyers always the ones outside the central group and not your fault?

 

[R.W.Dale]

Relax were not picking on you specifically. It's just that the allowance of fliers is just another small example of a much broader general dumbing down of rifle shooting that's been going on these past couple years.

When I did matches I started out requiring two groups to be averaged togeather. And nobody participated.

I then went to just one group, a few then participated

Then you allow the use of your best five, and a few more participated.

See where the trend is going?

Jerkface11 has a sig line claiming to be the best shot on THR for 2008 because he won an all summer long match by default. The requirement, shoot two groups back to back and average em

 

[dubbleA]

Jerkface11 has a sig line claiming to be the best shot on THR for 2008 because he won an all summer long match by default. The requirement, shoot two groups back to back and average em

Wow, I could have won many a shooting competitions if I was the only contestant. Maybe there should be a minimum # of playa's.

 

[rozziboy18]

man thats coming from the heart. it took me a long time to get were i am with accuracy.

not that far! i have shot my share of horrable targets in my short time here on earth. but

every now and then the stars a line and i get a awsome group. it not that rare out of my

8400 tactical but my m77, whole other ball game. when i started loading for it, holy crap!

4-5 inchs at 100! it took years for me to get it to all come together to get .5-1.0 insh

groups

 

[FlyinBryan]

as far as flyers,,,,from where i come from every round that exits the muzzle counts.

and never fiddle with your action while others are not back yet from checking, scoring, and posting targets.

 

[50caliber123]

Due to frustrations suchas the OP's with shooting paper targets, I've started to shoot at pop bottles and other small (under 4" wide) objects at a gravel pit. I figure if I can consistently hit a 2 liter bottle past 75 yards everytime, that pretty good. Almost every rifle can do that.

 

[W.E.G.]

Me and two of my kin having a rapid-fire contest with the AK.

That's my target on the left.
I whupped 'em.

We make up for accuracy with VOLUME of fire.

 

[JDGray]

^^^^Thats funny right there^^^^

Get that thing a new crown