Another gun-toting liberal here. Except for my gun-rights stance, I am an ACLU-card carrying, environmentalist liberal right on down the line. Not that a belief in the right to bear arms is in any way contradictory with those positions, despite what you might read around here.
Liberal with guns.
- Thread starter doctorhumbert
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Mike Irwin
Member
"My definition of "liberal" includes support for all of the constitutional, and maybe a few more, human rights."
So, that would mean virtually no one associated with today's iteration of the Democratic Party, correct?
So, that would mean virtually no one associated with today's iteration of the Democratic Party, correct?
Malone LaVeigh
Member
Correct. Slightly more than the Republican, but we're talking about insignificant numbers, in any case.
only1asterisk
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Doc,
Listening to NPR doesn't make you a liberal; it just means you either have fine taste in music or that you like your news just as full of **** as anything FOX puts out. If you know much about guns and believe in your rights, how does it make you feel when NPR starts spouting lies, BS and nonsense about them (as they often do)?
Don't get me wrong, I have friends across the political continium, but I'm curious what aspects of the liberal ideology would make you vote for people that don't respect your basic human rights.
David
Listening to NPR doesn't make you a liberal; it just means you either have fine taste in music or that you like your news just as full of **** as anything FOX puts out. If you know much about guns and believe in your rights, how does it make you feel when NPR starts spouting lies, BS and nonsense about them (as they often do)?
Don't get me wrong, I have friends across the political continium, but I'm curious what aspects of the liberal ideology would make you vote for people that don't respect your basic human rights.
David
HBK
member
I don't know what I am any more. I KNOW I'm not a Democrat, I don't think anyone else should take care of me and I shouldn't have to take care of anyone else. I thought I was a Republican, but I voted for Bush to have LESS government, Less spending, and to preserve the RKBA, as well as undo all the riduiculous executive orders that Clinton signed. Now I guess I lean more toward the Libertarian point of view, but I supported the war. I believe Islamic fundamentalist terrorists should be exterminated like cockroaches. If Bush signs one piece of pro gun legislation, I will probably vote for him. I believe abortion to be wholesale legalized murder. I don't really know what that makes me, I guess independent.
only1asterisk
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HBK,
You don't know what you are? You're just like me! or maybe I'm just like you! I Imagine there are quite a few of us without a political shoe that fits. Good thing for the Democrats and Republicans!
David
You don't know what you are? You're just like me! or maybe I'm just like you! I Imagine there are quite a few of us without a political shoe that fits. Good thing for the Democrats and Republicans!
David
chaim
Member
With guns? You can say that. I have a few now (hmm, under 20 over a dozen).
Am I a liberal? I used to be. I now consider myself a moderate, leaning (sometimes) strongly to the left or right depending upon the particular issue (other than guns I tend to like to avoid conversatations here as to particulars). I do currently consider myself a conservative Democrat. Whether or not I stay that depends very strongly upon what happens in the upcoming primaries (after the way the conservative wing of the party was treated after the last midterm election then made even worse by selection of Palosi I'm not sure if I fit anymore). If Kerry wins the primary at all (the man is a traitor to the country for how he disgraced his Medal of Honor after Vietnam and doesn't deserve a job flipping burgers let alone the White House) I'm no longer a Democrat. I also may leave the Democratic party if we (conservative/moderate Democrats) are mistreated again like the last midterm- i.e. a liberal wins and we are completely bad mouthed or ignored.
Am I a liberal? I used to be. I now consider myself a moderate, leaning (sometimes) strongly to the left or right depending upon the particular issue (other than guns I tend to like to avoid conversatations here as to particulars). I do currently consider myself a conservative Democrat. Whether or not I stay that depends very strongly upon what happens in the upcoming primaries (after the way the conservative wing of the party was treated after the last midterm election then made even worse by selection of Palosi I'm not sure if I fit anymore). If Kerry wins the primary at all (the man is a traitor to the country for how he disgraced his Medal of Honor after Vietnam and doesn't deserve a job flipping burgers let alone the White House) I'm no longer a Democrat. I also may leave the Democratic party if we (conservative/moderate Democrats) are mistreated again like the last midterm- i.e. a liberal wins and we are completely bad mouthed or ignored.
Travis McGee
Member
Yes, you are a freak of nature.
10-Ring
Member
Liberals w/ guns...okay, so you're not all bad 
Mike Irwin
Member
Hum...
Maybe we need to develop some criteria...
Such as:
Socially Liberal, Constitutionally Liberal, Socially and Constitutionally Moderate, Socially and Constitutionally Conservative, etc.
Socially liberal would be the way many Democrats are right now -- large(ish or er) and more pervasive government-funded social services programs.
Constitutionally Liberal would be advocacy of large Federal governemnt, supportive of many of the new laws that have been enacted, and not necessarily a friend of all of the Amendments, while the farther toward the Constitutionally Conservative side you get the more true to the Framers original intentions the individual is.
Judging myself on those two criteria, I'd have to day that I'm Socially Conservative, and Constitutionally Moderate leaning into the Conservative camp.
The rest of you are just plain liberal.
Maybe we need to develop some criteria...
Such as:
Socially Liberal, Constitutionally Liberal, Socially and Constitutionally Moderate, Socially and Constitutionally Conservative, etc.
Socially liberal would be the way many Democrats are right now -- large(ish or er) and more pervasive government-funded social services programs.
Constitutionally Liberal would be advocacy of large Federal governemnt, supportive of many of the new laws that have been enacted, and not necessarily a friend of all of the Amendments, while the farther toward the Constitutionally Conservative side you get the more true to the Framers original intentions the individual is.
Judging myself on those two criteria, I'd have to day that I'm Socially Conservative, and Constitutionally Moderate leaning into the Conservative camp.
The rest of you are just plain liberal.
Keith
Member
Mike,
The problem is that we tend to think of politics in a very simplistic linear form; like this: left<----------->right
When in fact, political "leanings" are better thought of in terms of the face of a clock with the left-right component as above, but then the top and bottom filled by Authoritarian or Libertarian. In other words, a "liberal" with authoritarian leanings might have a lot more in common with a "conservative" with the same leanings, than with another liberal who has a libertarian outlook.
This link is to a political quiz using that model: http://www.lp.org/quiz/
Many people taking this quiz are surprised at where they fall. It's rather simplistic, but it forces you to examine your true idealogy.
Keith
The problem is that we tend to think of politics in a very simplistic linear form; like this: left<----------->right
When in fact, political "leanings" are better thought of in terms of the face of a clock with the left-right component as above, but then the top and bottom filled by Authoritarian or Libertarian. In other words, a "liberal" with authoritarian leanings might have a lot more in common with a "conservative" with the same leanings, than with another liberal who has a libertarian outlook.
This link is to a political quiz using that model: http://www.lp.org/quiz/
Many people taking this quiz are surprised at where they fall. It's rather simplistic, but it forces you to examine your true idealogy.
Keith
Mike Irwin
Member
Keith,
Yep, that's the short of it. I attribute that political lack of attention span is probably due in large part to the fact that we have a two party system, as opposed to say Germany or Israel, both of which have multiple political parties and which defy categorical descriptions.
I've taken that quiz.
For some reason every time I do, my computer says "Mein Furher!" and I hear its chips click...
Yep, that's the short of it. I attribute that political lack of attention span is probably due in large part to the fact that we have a two party system, as opposed to say Germany or Israel, both of which have multiple political parties and which defy categorical descriptions.
I've taken that quiz.
For some reason every time I do, my computer says "Mein Furher!" and I hear its chips click...
Keith
Member
The problem with multi-party systems is that they tend to form coalitions to gain a majority. You end up with the same compromises as our two party system.
Keith
Keith
Mike Irwin
Member
"The problem with multi-party systems is that they tend to form coalitions to gain a majority. You end up with the same compromises as our two party system."
That's why it's called a SYSTEM instead of a DICTATORSHIP.
Sometimes, reading some of these threads, it seems as if people tend to loose sight of that fact...
That's why it's called a SYSTEM instead of a DICTATORSHIP.
Sometimes, reading some of these threads, it seems as if people tend to loose sight of that fact...
MicroBalrog
member
Doctorhumbert? What a name... (I read Nabokov too much...)
No. You're not a freak of nature. I'm the freak of nature here.
I'm a pro-gun liberal too.
No. You're not a freak of nature. I'm the freak of nature here.
I'm a pro-gun liberal too.
doctorhumbert
Member
Heh, Heh, Aren't Nabokov books banned in Israel ?
You are the first to one to decipher my demented cognoman. Most of the folks here thinks that I am a Jewish Physician of some sort.
'Oh, how you have to cringe and hide! '
?You are the first to one to decipher my demented cognoman. Most of the folks here thinks that I am a Jewish Physician of some sort.
'Oh, how you have to cringe and hide! '
whoami
Member
I think a comedian I heard over the weekend on Comedy Central said it best:
"I don't know where I fit in, politically. I'm not a Democrat, because I want to be able to spend ALL the money I make. But I'm not a Republican, because I want to spend ALL the money I make on DRUGS and HOOKERS!"
"I don't know where I fit in, politically. I'm not a Democrat, because I want to be able to spend ALL the money I make. But I'm not a Republican, because I want to spend ALL the money I make on DRUGS and HOOKERS!"
doctorhumbert
Member
Well, like Clinton would say, I guess that depends on the definition of 'hate'.
Mark Tyson
Member
Monkeyleg, your quote is from Hubert Humphrey if I'm not mistaken.
Chaim, I believe you are thinking of the other Senator Joe Bob Kerry, the one from Nebraska. He's the SEAL who was awarded the Medal of Honor. The Kerry from Massachusetts was also Navy (not a SEAL), did not get the MOH, and became very anti-war after his return home. Both Kerrys are no friend to gun owners.
So, how many liberals do we have here besides me?
Doctorhumbert
Microbalrog
Roscoe
Who else? Labels aren't really that important, but I think it's safe to say you're a liberal if you support a majority of the following:
Some kind of welfare/social safety net
Environmental protection laws
Progressive taxation, where the wealthy pay more
Occupational health/safety laws
Clean food/drug laws
Consumer protection laws
Government involvement in the market
Gay or "alternative lifestyle" rights
Some form of drug decriminalization, or "harm reduction"
Chaim, I believe you are thinking of the other Senator Joe Bob Kerry, the one from Nebraska. He's the SEAL who was awarded the Medal of Honor. The Kerry from Massachusetts was also Navy (not a SEAL), did not get the MOH, and became very anti-war after his return home. Both Kerrys are no friend to gun owners.
So, how many liberals do we have here besides me?
Doctorhumbert
Microbalrog
Roscoe
Who else? Labels aren't really that important, but I think it's safe to say you're a liberal if you support a majority of the following:
Some kind of welfare/social safety net
Environmental protection laws
Progressive taxation, where the wealthy pay more
Occupational health/safety laws
Clean food/drug laws
Consumer protection laws
Government involvement in the market
Gay or "alternative lifestyle" rights
Some form of drug decriminalization, or "harm reduction"
Try the political compass...
Classical Liberalism is not what most Americans think its is.
http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
Classical Liberalism is not what most Americans think its is.
http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
MicroBalrog
member
Some kind of welfare/social safety net - Yes
Environmental protection laws - Yes, but keep it reasonable
Progressive taxation, where the wealthy pay more - NO
Occupational health/safety laws - Yes
Clean food/drug laws - Yes
Consumer protection laws - Yes
Government involvement in the market - Depends
Gay or "alternative lifestyle" rights - Yes
Some form of drug decriminalization, or "harm reduction" - Yes
Therefore, I'm are liberal.
Environmental protection laws - Yes, but keep it reasonable
Progressive taxation, where the wealthy pay more - NO
Occupational health/safety laws - Yes
Clean food/drug laws - Yes
Consumer protection laws - Yes
Government involvement in the market - Depends
Gay or "alternative lifestyle" rights - Yes
Some form of drug decriminalization, or "harm reduction" - Yes
Therefore, I'm are liberal.
Jerrywahid
Member
My beef here is that just because some people say something is conservative doesn't make it so. For example...the gay rights issue. I consider myself conservative and I look at it like this. Gay folks have the same rights as everyone else. Period. No more no less. When things become liberal is when priveleges are granted above and beyond the rights of everyone else. In my opinion that would be liberal.
Also, just to take another example. I consider myself conservative and I also believe that the nature of our society is such that waste production cannot be avoided. Any legislature implemented that is not unreasonable and does not violate any of my rights is just fine with me.
The problem is politics. In my opinion (I think it was a Douglas Adams Concept) the person who least wants to be in charge is the one who would do the best job.
Also, just to take another example. I consider myself conservative and I also believe that the nature of our society is such that waste production cannot be avoided. Any legislature implemented that is not unreasonable and does not violate any of my rights is just fine with me.
The problem is politics. In my opinion (I think it was a Douglas Adams Concept) the person who least wants to be in charge is the one who would do the best job.
chaim
Member
Yes, I know that Sen. Bob Kerry had the MOH. I remembered hearing on the news once that Sen. John Kerry did too (probably the reporter confused them) and I did remember that he served in Vietnam and was considered a decorated war hero so I believed the MOH for him too. I just looked him up and you are right, while he was fairly well decorated, he was not awarded the MOH. Still, he did disgrace his uniform and decorations after coming home and I still have absolutely no respect for him (though it isn't quite as bad since the MOH was not one of the awards he desecrated).
Oh BTW, his Vietnam service was as an officer on board one of the gunboats on the Mekong Delta (that he served on a gunboat I knew).
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