"Liberals" and guns - stand up!

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Lefty Spin:

force religion on the nation.

Seems the only "religion" anyone is attempting to 'force" would be the humanist one that the Dems worship when they demand we approve(not merely accept or tolerate but approve, endorse) of every perversity and bizarre fringe behavior and moral alteration they can trot out.
 
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That issue was shot down in all 11 states where it appeared on the ballot in the Nov '04 election. Even in states where Kerry won.

40 years ago they would've voted to keep segregation and jim crow laws. 50 years before that they probably would've voted to make lynching blacks legal.

Just because the majority supports something (I'd even argue that a majority of people in the US support gun control) doesn't mean it's right. After all a majority of the German people supported Nazism.
 
That kind of comparison has its place, but also keep in mind that sometimes the majority is right and does have a reasonable moral center on issues. This is definitely one of those times.
 
if you made $1 million , you made it because large numbers of people drove on roads, used sewers, need police, medical , everything else.

morons can't figure out why we were stuck in the Dark Ages for hunderds of years?

the rich never gave one dime back to the poor, ever. finally the church sent the men to war, some of the money started trickling back down poor folks got a way to move up

Followed shortly by:

i dont expect anyone who votes for bush to understand anyone who doesnt when it comes to world economics,
The irony here is just delightful.

Thorn, I would seriously suggest that you learn to differentiate between economic systems based on feudalistic oppression and economic systems based on the mutually beneficial exchange of goods and services.

That you actually deign to accuse the Republicans of being a bunch of medieval-style money-grubbing oppressors whilst at the same time advocating obviously rapacious levels of taxation that King Henry would dig strikes me as one of the most fundamentally amusing things I've read in quite some time.

Quite frankly, I look at it this way: The left doesn't want me to have any money, and the right doesn't want me to have any fun. Though there seems to be a lot of cross-pollination of late.
 
Seems the only "religion" anyone is attempting to 'force" would be the humanist one that the Dems worship when they demand we approve(not merely accept or tolerate but approve, endorse) of every perversity and bizarre fringe behavior and moral alteration they can trot out.

this is what i dont get at all.
where does allowing certain things to happen that have n oimpact on you whatsoever fall into "force you to approve"
i keep hearing this , that certain things being legal = approve of it.
does alcohol being legal mean every American approves of it???
i sure hope not.
...they don't believe(supposedly) that Big Government has the right to redistribute income or demand everyone not merely accept but approve of social and moral items society normally finds abhorrent?

see again, i dont see how letting people do things that dont impact you directly forces you to approve of it.

now, some of this i see is aimed at welfare, and i hear you guys on that, welfare, i am not very supportive of. foodstamps, some assistance, but i am into work programs. think post depression. Tennesee valley, what was it called? stuff like that.

further, yep, redistribute some of that income. or whatever. you guys like it that 4% of US has as much capital as the bottom 40% put together, fine.
the worse things are in the world, the better they are for me. bring bac kthe depression. like i said, i dont expect people who vote for a math wiz like bush to understand complex world economics.

ha. you guys had me worried , i thought you had a real argument against me.
 
further, yep, redistribute some of that income. or whatever. you guys like it that 4% of US has as much capital as the bottom 40% put together, fine.

the worse things are in the world, the better they are for me. bring bac kthe depression. like i said, i dont expect people who vote for a math wiz like bush to understand complex world economics.

Um, evidently you haven't noticed, but economics is hardly a zero-sum game.
 
That you actually deign to accuse the Republicans of being a bunch of medieval-style money-grubbing oppressors whilst at the same time advocating obviously rapacious levels of taxation that King Henry would dig strikes me as one of the most fundamentally amusing things I've read in quite some time.

no see you got me wrong- first, remove the govt waste= the overpaying, the funneling of funds into subsidies for compaines that were making profit anyway (plastic anyone?)
taxes really shouldnt need to be all that much higher, and reality should be lower if we got more people paying , and if rich folks paid a more fair share, and i a mtalknig about RICH folks here, the multi millions, corpirations who pay NO US TAXES, things like that.

AND MOST impostantly, youre tlaking about king henry or whatever-
GET REAL- the HUGE differencve here is the return to the community=
ROADS get FIXED. people get paid by gOvT to fix roads. things like that.

as usual, small minds see a small picture. sure, taxes just go up in vapor, roads magically appear, the govt doenst pay one dime to anyone that isnt a corrupt politician. i dont get more work when other people have more work.

YOU have been Snowed. it is just so great, watching some of my poor friends
try to elect people who want ot make them poorer.
 
I have no problem with that 4%, because I have a pretty fair chunk of it myself. So do most people. They'd have a lot more of it if FedGov wasn't always at the front door with its left hand held out and its right hand on the butt of a gun.

Also, to this your question of "why do you mind if it doesn't affect you" would apply quite well. Someone being rich does not stop you from succeeding. If anything it may well improve your chances.

Redefining social conventions by legislation and frivilous lawsuits does affect "me". It affects where the tax dollars go, who can live off the government tit and what I and my children have to deal with on a personal and daily basis. Who you want to do in the privacy of your own home is none of my business. Approving of it or helping to fund it or accepting that it has the same "legitimacy" as hundreds or thousands of years of tradition and belief(that happen to work pretty well not meddled with by outside forces) is not your right to demand.

But you are right, there is no good argument against you because you haven't presented anything demanding a "good" argument.
 
Dude, seriously, you've been pwned. However, I'm bored, so for my own amusement I shall rebut:

no see you got me wrong- first, remove the govt waste= the overpaying, the funneling of funds into subsidies for compaines that were making profit anyway (plastic anyone?)
Where do you see me advocating government subsidies for industry? Feel free to use the search function to find that post.

taxes really shouldnt need to be all that much higher, and reality should be lower if we got more people paying ,
Last year, I paid just shy of 30% of my yearly income in taxes. Oh, yeah, and I made way less than $30K. But I guess I should be happy to pay a higher rate of taxes because the government provides one really useful services to me- it paves roads.

and if rich folks
Define "rich." You use the term ambiguously.
paid a more fair share,
There you go, being all ambiguous again. Define "fair share."
and i a mtalknig about RICH folks here, the multi millions, corpirations who pay NO US TAXES, things like that.
Ok, a couple of things:
1)If a person becomes wealthy because of their brains, hard work, talent, or even luck, should they be punished for it?
2)Please feel free to cite sources regarding US citizens or corporations that paid no taxes in the last fiscal year.

Cheers!
 
uh , you thought i was lying? thorn does not lie. Wrong, OFTEN!

1)If a person becomes wealthy because of their brains, hard work, talent, or even luck, should they be punished for it?
2)Please feel free to cite sources regarding US citizens or corporations that paid no taxes in the last fiscal year.

here you go=
Taking into account all companies, including small corporations--many of which may not have earned any profits--the GAO found that "in each year between 1989 and 1995, a majority of corporations, both foreign- and U.S.-controlled, paid no U.S. income tax." The GAO defined a company as large if in 1995 it had assets of at least $250 million or sales of at least $50 million.

The GAO report also found that large foreign-owned corporations operating in the United States are doing a much better job of evading taxes than U.S.-owned companies. In 1995, where large U.S. companies paid more than $15 in taxes for each $1,000 in sales, foreign-controlled companies paid barely half that.

The GAO offered some partial explanations for why foreign-controlled companies pay less in taxes on their U.S. operations: many are newer, and they are more concentrated in wholesaling and less concentrated in financial services than U.S. companies.

http://eatthestate.org/03-38/FocusOnCorporation.htm

and yeah, i realize i am way to vague here, i dont have the energy. ive read books on this stuff, im not completely retarded here.
1)If a person becomes wealthy because of their brains, hard work, talent, or even luck, should they be punished for it?


see that is the big debate, which i know i cant win. 1st, i dont see it as punishment. i pay taxes, there are roads for me to drive my truck on.
even i am making money off the backs of others, i have employees. they make much less than i do. they cnat afford a car, its good they can use a bus.

in a perfect world, people would just tithe and we would have no trouble,
but also what no one here seems to get at all is the money only exists because we have the govt.
how do we pay for military? by donations?

by going back to civil war method, fight or pay? send the people wh owork for you out to die protecting your land? ok guys i give up
 
Here's something you're not going to like:
the top 20% wage earners pay 80% of taxes, the top 50% wage earners pay 96% of income taxes. Here's the proof:
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdoc.cfm?index=5746&type=1

So, the rich pay more then their "fair share" as you like to call it. If you're really interested in people paying their fair share, you'd support a tax decrease for the rich.

Somehow, I don't think you will.
 
Thorn ~

You're not the only one -- Plenty of heated rhetoric on all sides.

:scrutiny:

pax
 
Taking into account all companies, including small corporations--many of which may not have earned any profits--the GAO found that "in each year between 1989 and 1995, a majority of corporations, both foreign- and U.S.-controlled, paid no U.S. income tax." The GAO defined a company as large if in 1995 it had assets of at least $250 million or sales of at least $50 million.
So, even if a company doesn't turn a profit, they should still have to pay income tax on...what? The profit they thought they would make? Let's say I come up with a business plan. We'll call it "Justin's Sweet Time Travel Delivery Service: Tomorrow's Packages Yesterday!" Now, let's pretend that I get a group of Angel Investors to drop several million dollars on my business idea, because I think it should make, like, a gajillion dollars. So we do the research, burn through the initial investment money, all to find out that the laws of physics preclude us from being able to deliver packages by using time travel. As a result, my company doesn't turn a profit, but according to you it should still pay taxes. Please explain.

The GAO report also found that large foreign-owned corporations operating in the United States are doing a much better job of evading taxes than U.S.-owned companies. In 1995, where large U.S. companies paid more than $15 in taxes for each $1,000 in sales, foreign-controlled companies paid barely half that.
Wait, I thought you said that they weren't paying any taxes?! I'm going to make a wild assumption here, and assume that this is with regard to taxes on corporate profit. Somehow I kind of doubt that any of these companies avoided paying taxes on capital expenditures for equipment, supplies, and services purchased within the United States. And even if they did, it gets back to the question of what constitutes a "fair share" of taxation.

Also, I will note that the source for your information has the following listed on their Tiny Print Section:
EAT THE STATE! is a shamelessly biased political journal. We want an end to poverty, exploitation, imperialism, militarism, racism, sexism, heterosexism, environmental destruction, television, and large ugly buildings, and we want it ????ing now. We are not affiliated with any political group or party. We publish EAT THE STATE! as a not-for-profit way of sharing information, resources, opinions, and hopefully inspiring ACTION in our community. Please help!
Hardly a neutral source.

see that is the big debate, which i know i cant win. 1st, i dont see it as punishment. i pay taxes, there are roads for me to drive my truck on.
You know, if we were all just equally sharing the burden of road construction, I seriously doubt that the taxation levels in this country would be anywhere as offensively high as they are.

n a perfect world, people would just tithe and we would have no trouble,
It's called the Free Market. There is no US Department of Buying Justin an xBox. There is no bureaucracy dedicated to making sure there's food in my fridge or a full tank of gas in my car. Yet somehow those things are there. Call me a wild-eyed dreamer, but people tend to pay for those goods and services that they want. Even in a totally unregulated system, it can quite rationally be argued that people would be willing and able to pay for road use as an out of pocket expense, and it would probably be cheaper than the current system. However, that's a tangent for another day.
but also what no one here seems to get at all is the money only exists because we have the govt.
Only partially right. Money exists as a way to easily facilitate the trade of goods and services among willing individuals and groups. Without money we'd be stuck back with the barter system. Somehow I kinda doubt that Dell wants me to pay for a new notebook computer with a bag full of chickens.

how do we pay for military? by donations?
Ok, so you've got the military, and roads. But as an openly avowed leftist, what are your views on the military? How do you feel about the invasion of Iraq? Or the fact that a B2 Stealth Bomber costs multiple tens of millions of dollars? Quite frankly, there are very, very few services that are so cost prohibitive that society as a whole must pay for them. However, the military, insofar as any nation needs one, is probably one of those costs.

Also, I will note that thus far in the debate, you've hardly addressed even 1/3 of the points I've brought up.
 
Hi All-

Without mentioning names, some people should compose their rants in MS Word so they can do a spelling and grammar check before posting. THR members should occasionally test their shift keys for proper function to ensure message clarity.

Thanks,

~ Blue Jays ~
 
If you self-described liberals so intently dislike having viewpoints ascribed to you that 99% of your fellow Liberals DO adhere to, wouldn't it be a lot easier for you to just call yourselves something else. Progressives maybe?

Somewhere around 99% of Liberals ARE pathologically in favor of anti-American items like: unconstitutional gun control, socialistic wealth redistribution, affirmative action, the religious mythology of global warming, and a plethora of other whacko hard-left views that the vast majority of normal, productive Americans rightly find to be detestable.

If you don't wish to have these types of negative labels applied to you, then reject Liberalism.

If you lay down with dogs, you wake up with fleas. It's that simple.

BTW- Bush won.:D :D :D Get over it.
 
uggg, guys , heard on the spelling i know that cna be annoying.
heheh im annoyed too.
all i want to respond to at this point is this-


Ok, so you've got the military, and roads. But as an openly avowed leftist, what are your views on the military? How do you feel about the invasion of Iraq?

openly avowed leftist? not so sure.

military= without the US mega superior military, we would have 100 million muslims killing what's left of 100 million chinese who already killed 50 million mexicans. OR = i love the military. really , it is what makes the US the US.

now Iraq= my only complaints about Iraq are these=
Bush is in charge. Bush lied to get us over there.

the US liberals didnt have enough nads to go in there and kick his butt the first time, so Bush HAD to do it. was i worried about Iraqi terrorists? NO.

do i think we should depose madmen, using our oil $$ (regardless of what he did with the oil, its a global market, prices ar affected,etc) to obliterate, oppress, and enrich himself???
i can't believe we didnt shoot him on sight.

I fully support the Iraqw war, and i value those guys the way i value the ones who went to Europe and saved not only us, but also the European towns, that those oppressed people in Iraq are worth fighting for.
some of you may not agree with that.
i put it sorta like this=
in 1860 whatever, it took almost 3 weeks to march to the South.
the war was fought in great part based on money, trade, etc.
it was far away, the rich didnt have to fight.

but i have to look at it and agree with the ultimate goal, the slaves were freed.

Iraq is the same in many ways.

as far as the rest of it , whatever guys.

if you dare, read a book called
America What went Wrong?

youll understand where im coming from then.
 
Here we go again, at the mere mention of liberal the stereotypes come out of the gates!

Translation: "boo hoo, 99% of liberals are rabidly in favor of gun confiscation, and when I call myself a Liberal, people start knocking Liberals for...er...being 99% rabidly in favor of gun confiscation..NO FAIR!"

Jeeez! Can't Liberals even take personal responsibility for one of their school of political thought's MAJOR TENETS???

If I professed to be a devout Catholic I wouldn't go on with some endless complaint whenever people questioned me about the RC Church's dogma.
 
Can't Liberals even take personal responsibility for one of their school of political thought's MAJOR TENETS???
Ducking personal responsibility IS one of the major tenets of liberalism.
 
Here's something you're not going to like:
the top 20% wage earners pay 80% of taxes, the top 50% wage earners pay 96% of income taxes. Here's the proof:
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdoc.cfm?index=5746&type=1

So, the rich pay more then their "fair share" as you like to call it. If you're really interested in people paying their fair share, you'd support a tax decrease for the rich.

Personally I don't think someone who can't afford to feed or clothe themselves or their children has any business paying income tax. If you're the type of scrooge who likes to take some of the little money they have, so be it.

Personally I think we should get rid of income tax altogether and institute a national VAT (Sales tax). Everyone would be taxed fairly under such a system. Make a sort of exemption card for verifiably poor people.
 
Translation: "boo hoo, 99% of liberals are rabidly in favor of gun confiscation, and when I call myself a Liberal, people start knocking Liberals for...er...being 99% rabidly in favor of gun confiscation..NO FAIR!"

well yeah, that is pretty true.

i still dont get how being liberal came to equal hating guns.
most of my friends hate the consrevative agenda, an love their guns.

i think a few liberals are making a huge amount of noise over issues most of us care much less about.
 
Translation: "boo hoo, 99% of liberals are rabidly in favor of gun confiscation, and when I call myself a Liberal, people start knocking Liberals for...er...being 99% rabidly in favor of gun confiscation..NO FAIR!"

Have you ever tried to get 99 out of 100 people to agree on anything? Good luck.


I am sort of a liberal. Well, conservatives call me a liberal. Liberals call me a conservative. I have my own views on many subjects. I'm "liberal" on some, "conservative" on others. It seems like people naturally need an opposition to blame all bad things on and duck responsibility. A large number of folks of any political type love to overlook the faults of their own party, and harp on the faults of others.

"Good, Bad... I'm the one with the gun." - Ash
 
I remember when Republican Bob Dole was the Minority Leader in the Senate, and chose not to fight or filibuster the assault weapons ban.

I remember when after Columbine, Congress wanted to close the federal gunshow sales "loophole", (I understand the political uncorrectness of the term) and Democrat John Dingell (Michigan) caste the deciding vote to kill the bill.

My Republican Congresswoman Nancy Johnson (Ways & Means Committee) is not a RBKA supporter and recently responded negatively to my inquiry.

Democrat Howard Dean didn't grab any guns that I'm aware of as Gov. of Vermont and they still don't require any form of CCW there.

Not all Democrats are gun grabbers and not all Republicans support RKBA.
 
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Labels - bah!

Democrat, Republican, liberal, conservative... Those labels are simplistic and meaningless. The beliefs that people hold span the spectrum from far left to far right. Very, very few people hold a narrow enough set of beliefs to be properly categorized with the labels that are being thrown around.

Regardless of the labels that others might want to hang around my neck, the only label that I will claim here is pro-RKBA. Isn't that enough on this forum?

BTW, Democrats are no longer 'liberals' - they are now 'progessives.'
 
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