Debunked: Limp wristing is a valid excuse for malfunctions

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ok girls.

it's the old limp wrist question.

have any of you shot there pistol out of a ransom rest???

the ransom rest is a true limp wrist design. when the pistol is fired it pivots from the lowest point on the weapon (ie: limp wrist) my ransom rest will allow a pistol to function as normal if it has a fast slide speed, as in most 9mm guns. it is a single shooter with 1911's of all flavors, it will take a pistol that is 100% reliable and due to the pivot point will either stove pipe the brass or not fully eject it. it will do the same with a browning highpower. if you put a walther pp, ppk, p-38, glock 19,22,23, ect,ect, a whole bunch of sigs in 9mm and 40 in it, it will allow the pistol to functions with out issue. it took me almost 6 months to get my girl friend to stop limp wristing her commander and now she has no problems with the gun. so limp wrists and firearm function, depending on the weapon, from my point of view is a real deal. :cool:
 
it took me almost 6 months to get my girl friend to stop limp wristing her commander and now she has no problems with the gun. so limp wrists and firearm function, depending on the weapon, from my point of view is a real deal.
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Really? You mean it does happen? Gee, and here we've been saying all along no gun in the world could ever be limp wristed. Darn it. :D

Again, it helps to read the thread before responding. :p
 
Someone bring this up on the mythbusters sight!!!lol Nobody is winning this argument, however fun it may be to read.
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I just tried and their site isn't allowing logins right now. ARGH! I'll try again later or tomorrow morning. I doubt they'll take it because no one outside of the firearms community will even know what we're talking about, but it's worth a try.
 
I'm not saying that ANYTHING is proof against bad technique. You can crash a Boeing 757 just as hard as a DC-10. That's why I think your whole premise is illogical. All guns require proper technique to use reliably. This includes knowing what ammo to load, knowing where the safety is and how to actuate it (and I'd bet that more people have died to do "failure to disengage safety" than "limp wristing due to injuries"), and knowing what you can and cannot do and still have the gun go off. You must also know to pull the trigger, how to aim, and the fact that guns fire projectiles out the front at high speed. Without a whole bunch of knowledge it's no more useful than a brick.

Example of required knowledge: Many pistols will NOT fire if you push them into or against someone and pull the trigger. This is because of a designed-in safety interlock on the slide and trigger to prevent firing out of battery. If you push the muzzle against someone (e.g. in a close-in fight) you may put the slide out of battery far enough that it won't fire. That may be a stopper or it may just prevent follow up shots. A knowledgeable person will know to pull the gun slightly away in such a circumstance.

Think that's a quality issue? It isn't. Just a design constraint.

Another example of required knowledge: Many pistols count on the mass of the shooter's arm to augment the mass of the frame and help control the action timing. Allowing the frame to accelerate backwards excessively when fired will change the action timing and may result in failures to eject or failures to feed.

Think that is a quality issue? It isn't. It's a designed in attribute to lighten the gun because one of the primary considerations in carry guns is hanging weight.

To describe those as quality (in the good/bad sense) attributes is incorrect. To say that passing or failing a non-quality-attribute test is an indication of quality is illogical.
 
sturmgewehr, I do not believe people are responding to everything that is said in the thread; I believe alot of people including myself are responding to the very matter-of-fact subtitle that says "Debunked: Limp wristing is a valid excuse for malfunctions." Regardless of what you've said in the thread, that statement alone has greater implications than your test can support. You may have changed your song through 5 pages of posts, but that statement still stands at the top of the thread.
 
What I don't get, Sturm, is why you have such an incredibly personal interest in arguing against limp wristing as a valid reason. You've made it your own quest in this thread to shoot down anyone who tries to claim that bad technique is an understandable reason for failure. And you've ignored every testimony, from numerous sources, that indicates that most brands of handguns can jam when held incorrectly. So once again I have to ask: what pistol out there DO you consider to be incapable of limp wristing (and therefore superior)?
 
All guns require proper technique to use reliably.
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Really? So there are no guns that will fire and work as designed regardless of how you hold them? Right. Deal in absolutes much? :p
 
Anyone post this yet?
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Interesting - the XD having no problem while the M9 did have issues would seem to be exactly backwards from what some would predict.

Hard to tell from the video but there may be thumb contact on the M9 - there's an apparent attempt to use a "high loose thumb" on all the products but it seemed to start earlier with the Beretta.
 
Many pistols will NOT fire if you push them into or against someone and pull the trigger.
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This isn't even close to being the same thing, but there are factory pistols designed to work in such a situation if you're goofy enough to pushing your pistol against someone. The Springfield XD series of pistols come to mind. :p
 
What I don't get, Sturm, is why you have such an incredibly personal interest in arguing against limp wristing as a valid reason. You've made it your own quest in this thread to shoot down anyone who tries to claim that bad technique is an understandable reason for failure. And you've ignored every testimony, from numerous sources, that indicates that most brands of handguns can jam when held incorrectly. So once again I have to ask: what pistol out there DO you consider to be incapable of limp wristing (and therefore superior)?
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Wow.

Well, first this is a discussion board. The concept is that you think of a topic and then discuss it. You draft an opinion, float it to the group and then defend your position. Is this a new concept to you? :)

As for the notion "most" brands of handguns will malfunction based upon the users grip... well, I disagree with you. What you've offered is second hand (3rd hand or even 4th hand) anecdotal comments whereas I've offered some video (with more to come).

I've never said that some handguns can't be limp wristed. To the contrary, I know some can be. My point is that if your gun fails to feed regularly or even semi-regularly on you, that trying to excuse it away as your fault and not the guns simply doesn't fly. For a defensive arm, your pistol should work in the most adverse conditions. If you're wounded, or awakened from a deep slumber, you need to be able to count on your weapon.

As for what handgun do I personally feel is exempt from the shooters hold? I can't speak for all handguns, but I can speak for the ones I've owned and tested for years. I've tried and tried to get my favorite handguns to fail to feed based upon my hold, the position of the gun (upside down, side ways, etc.) and I have not been successful.
 
Hawk, I was trying to stick my thumb out because I didn't want to hold the pistol with any lateral force so that it could torque and roll as needed. So I applied no force to the pistol at all, the only thing keeping it from flipping over the web of my hand was my finger in the trigger guard. I didn't have a death grip with that single finger either, I pulled the trigger and relaxed the finger.
 
I believe it can happen, in theory, to some guns. I do not accept it as an excuse for a malfunctioning gun. And if a given handgun is susceptible to this kind of problem, it is not fit to be a defensive sidearm. How good of a grip are you going to have if you've already been injured, for example, or have to shoot from an awkward position?
 
To describe those as quality (in the good/bad sense) attributes is incorrect. To say that passing or failing a non-quality-attribute test is an indication of quality is illogical.
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I never said it was purely an issue of "quality", I said design/quality issue. Either one can be at fault or a combination of both. A design might be sound but the execution may be flawed. To argue otherwise is illogical in my view.
 
I believe it can happen, in theory, to some guns. I do not accept it as an excuse for a malfunctioning gun. And if a given handgun is susceptible to this kind of problem, it is not fit to be a defensive sidearm. How good of a grip are you going to have if you've already been injured, for example, or have to shoot from an awkward position?
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BINGO!
 
I'm kind of surprised that so many people think that a man-made device, the handgun, should be one of the only such creations impervious to user error. It's a machine just like many other things in our lives.
 
I never said it was purely an issue of "quality", I said design/quality issue. Either one can be at fault or a combination of both. A design might be sound but the execution may be flawed. To argue otherwise is illogical in my view.
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By design issue you mean "Bad design." That is a qualitative conclusion not supported by your statements or videos.

You can't have everything. Want it lighter? Want it to cycle heaver loads without self-destructing or damaging your hand? Those requirements push the operational envelope around. If you take a design optimized for heavy (defensive) loads in a light (concealable) package the gun will be more sensitive to operator error. It's just physics. Have 100 olde worlde master gunsmiths build the highest quality pistol ever and it's still subject to the laws of physics. Spring/mass harmonics. Can't get around it. If the designer counted on the mass of the shooter for the timing of the gun to reach a design goal that's neither fault nor indication of quality. It's optimization. It's like a rudder control on an airplane... planes with rudder controls require more skill to fly but you can do more with them.

Take that optimized-for-concealed carry/combat gun and lighten the spring and you may make it totally reliable with lighter loads. Has that improved the design? By your standards the answer is yes because it is no longer limp-wristable. However, the gun may beat itself to death or fail to cycle after only a few hundred rounds of defensive ammo. Is it good design to accommodate a training deficit by limiting the ultimate effectiveness or longevity of the gun? Would the short lifespan indicate poor quality? The answer to both questions is No. A well designed defensive gun is designed for use in combat, not target shooting. It is designed for use with a certain level of training. Sacrificing ultimate effectiveness to make up for poor training or weak target ammo is bad design.

Another example might be found in aluminum framed ultralight revolvers. They have cut the longevity and controllability in order to increase the concealability. Is that bad design? No. It's real-world design where you can't have everything. Small and light means lighter materials and weaker frames and if you want that in a combat-effective cartridge you are going to reduce something. Physics. Material properties. Constants that cannot be wished around.

This has nothing to do with videos or the definition of limp wristing. It has to do with logic and the nature of design. Logically your assertions are incorrect because they insist that accommodating a particular corner case is essential to the definition of either design or quality when in fact it has nothing to do with either characteristic but instead was a considered choice on the part of a designer trying to reach certain performance goals (light weight, high power, whatever) in the real world.
 
I'm confused.. who is who?

Quote: from OP first page: Link provided for the/his carry guns of him shooting and no Limp-wrist affects with the 4 guns listed "in order" he shot.

Here are the results:

Springfield XD 9mm
Sig Sauer P226R
Springfield 1911 TRP
Beretta Model 92

That's all I took with me today, but as you can see these weapons function as designed regardless of how they're held - just as they should.
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Then this posters post from Lew; on the 5th page..

Quote: Anyone post this yet? (LINK provided to youtube)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyCiw9BX43o

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...

But it starts off with showing the same hand, field, guns, same video, except that the same shooter starts off laughing at what we give our service men, in an Entitled Video:

"How does the Beretta M9 handle limp wristing?"

After the Beretta M9 failures, then the "same order" and guns as the OP.

Then this video, then shows the OP's 4 guns that don't have any limp-wrist effect.. :uhoh:

What am I missing.. ??

Did the OP limp wrist the Beretta or not..?

IS this not the same video, same guns, with the exception of the M9 Beretta that fails because of limp-wristing?

And is this not the same hand, sleeve, background, same person as the OP?


My eyes must be going.. I swear I'm seeing double.. :scrutiny:



Ls
 
Ames, not to be rude but you're babbling on with circular logic that, much like what you're accusing me of, has no application here.

Simple fact: A defensive arm should work in the most adverse of conditions.

Period.

You can ramble on about trading frame life or weight for reliability but that's not the issue for me, the military or most people concerned with surviving a lethal encounter. What matters above all else is that your gun works when you pull the trigger. Are you upside down for some reason? Your gun should work. You've been shot in the shoulder and you can't maintain a firm grip? Your gun should work. You've fallen in some soupy goop and then fired your weapon? It should work.

You can try to excuse your favorite pistols poor performance by saying, "well technically the manufacturer conducted a GAP analysis and determined that shaving X off the weight of the pistol produced an acceptable result... blah blah blah".

That's double speak for politicians.

Men in the field need one thing and one thing only, a tool that works regardless of the environment.

Those tools exist.
 
Quote: The beauty of the M9 vid is that the shooter is thumbing the slide to induce failures.
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Yes, Ed, it is quite different than the OP's grip and results with the other Beretta 92.

And to quote the OP again:


"Here are the results:"

Springfield XD 9mm
Sig Sauer P226R
Springfield 1911 TRP
Beretta Model 92

*** "That's all I took with me today", ("but as you can see these weapons function as designed regardless of how they're held - just as they should.")
.........

*** But that statement in its-self, is NOT true, as he ALSO took, and SHOT a Beretta M9, and as you said, helped it fail..

Can the OP explain what actually happened that day?


Ls :scrutiny:
 
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