Debunked: Limp wristing is a valid excuse for malfunctions

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These "limp wrist" threads pop up with some degree of regularity.

I'm with Sturmgewehr for all practical purposes. I don't maintain that it can't or hasn't happened, only that it's a misdiagnosis in the majority of cases.

My personal estimate is that's it's misdiagnosed close to 100% of the time when the diagnostician is a dealer or manufacturer with a vested interest in the sale staying final.

One local dealer, evidently looking to add a "Cynicism" category to the Guinness book of records, actually stocked various grip-enhancing pieces of gymnasium equipment as a secondary profit center.

The credibility of diagnostics is several orders of magnitude better when the individual claiming limp-wrist has no commercial interest in the outcome but, even here, I've seen it applied incorrectly no small number of times. Not all user induced grip related malfs are properly termed "limp wrist". As example, if someone in one of your classes needs to be bandaged after the first round from slide-bite, that's not limp-wrist. Neither would be any other grip-related issue that inhibits slide movemont. It's easy to lump it into "limp wrist" but I submit it's confusing and complicates remedial measures when misidentified.

But we'll probably be laboring under the haze for some time to come. In a recent "limp wrist" thread, one poster actually reported on a lack of "limp wrist" failure in the context of "no wrist".
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=3810920&postcount=53

My personal surmise is that, at least in some rare cases, those claiming the ability to limp-wrist at will are much like old time motorcycle riders that were never aware that they were using countersteering inputs - like as not, there's some degree of "slide drag" or some other unconscious sleight of hand at work other than simply breaking one's wrist. Otherwise, the "zip tie through the lanyard loop" should have produced a "limp wrist" malf.

I'll even grant that some semis might be subject to such shenanigans. Be assured I'll stay well clear of any that exhibit such tendencies.
 
Intresting thread. I could shoot my G19, with slightly down powerd handloads, and the gun would run 100%, with the empties landing a few feet to my right. I hand the gun to my 10yr old son, using the same ammo, and got stovepipe after stovepipe, the empies that did eject, fall on his feet. Its all in the way you hold the gun. If you dont lock your elbow, than your arm acts like a shock absorber, causing malfunctions. All steel guns seem to have less issues. But this is just my observations.(YMMV):)
 
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Outstanding post Hawk.

I'm inspired. If the weather holds out next weekend I'm going to do the ultimate limp wrist test by recreating the experiment you linked to and video tape the results. I will also use several popular makes in the test and we'll see how it goes.
 
IMO

The good news is that you don't know how to limpwrist. That's a good thing. Likely because you DO shoot a lot. You certainly demonstrated a loose grip tho. To visualize limpwristing, lock your arm and shake hands with someone. That would be the motion, and it isn't exagerated in your video (slightly there)

I'm not sure I could either, but I think starting with the gun loosely canted down (as was suggested) might be the way to see. Also, the suggestion that you prove that you can limpwrist any gun is good science (your experiments only proved that you couldn't limpwrist, need further input to say the gun can't).

To all those with skepticism, To debunk the debunking, I'd say all that is needed is for someone to limpwrist a 226, XD, 92 or a TRP basically on command (so that it's not shown to be ammo or ??? related problems).

My personal belief (with a certain amount of experience watching others) is that guns can be made to limpwrist. I've not really studied it too much, but likely isn't a black and white issue. Life rarely is. We probably are looking for the rate that pistols tend to FTF given a limpwrist. Likely a function of mass, caliber, grip/angle, etc and a host of shooter variables. Valid experiments could involve a lot of shooters (yours had one), a lot of guns (yours had 4) and a lot of rounds (sounds like you have a good start on it). Or, look to a large diverse population of shooters (the experiences on a gun board, an SO's experience for a shooting sport, etc) and you can come away with some conclusions too, some of which has been offered in this thread.

Why subscribe that a quality made gun can't be limpwristed? Glocks (yech) are quality firearms and most certainly can. thus, they need a shooter who isn't likely to limp wrist it.

Maybe you'd prefer we call your models beginners models because they are less likely to be limpwristed by new shooters?

But I appreciate your post and WILL think twice about recommending a Glock to newbies unless I know they will train, or at least test drive them to see if thier are problems.
 
Does not look like limp-wristing to me. Furthermore, those guns looked pretty darn clean and 50 rounds is not that much. There are other factors that go into it like the gun being dirty, the gun being over-sprung, the ammunition being weak, etc.

Sorry, it doesn't prove a thing, and I've seen limp-wristing cause malfunctions myself.
 
Someone on a previous page said they know someone that can make any gun malfunction just by the way they hold it...I'm not saying it isn't true by any means, but I would love to see him/her cause a CZ 75B to malf by the way they hold it...I use this pistol as an example because it is one of my handguns(IMVH collection) that has never malfunctioned and will not malfunction if I try and it's never malfunctioned for any of my friends...The same friends that do get my 1911 to malfunction.





Man, thats a lot of "malfunctions" for one paragraph :)
 
Does not look like limp-wristing to me. Furthermore, those guns looked pretty darn clean and 50 rounds is not that much. There are other factors that go into it like the gun being dirty, the gun being over-sprung, the ammunition being weak, etc.
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Perhaps the "myth" vs. "real" crowd could find some area of agreement if certain terms and definitions were shared.

Can we agree that a "limp wrist" malfunction, to be considered "real" must be due solely to the behavior of one's wrist / grip on the weapon?

In other words, a malf due to a dirty or unlubricated firearm is due to it being dirty or unlubricated and not limp wrist?

Similarly, "oversprung" or "out of spec ammo" are malfs onto themselves and not related to limp wrist?

I suppose one could strike a balance where a firearm is just dirty, under-lubed or oversprung enough that a weak grip could induce a malf where it would run with a better grip, but then we'd get mired in which condition contributed more and little would be learned.

So, in an effort to define a "real" limp-wrist malf, is it reasonable to grant that the weapon will be clean, properly sprung, with correct ammo and that it should occur with regularity? 50 rounds should be more than enough - most claims of "limp wrist" that I've seen involved one or more malfs per magazine, not per box of ammo.
 
I just think there are a lot of factors that go into most given malfunctions rather than always ascribing them to a single cause. You could have a dirty, over-sprung gun with target ammo that does not malfunction in a firm-wristed shooters hand but will malfunction in a limp-wrister's hand. To me, that is enough to say that limp-wristing can cause a malfunction. It is a variable that can be changed that can induce a problem.

That scenario typifies my shooting. I shoot primarily lead reloads in a 1911 with an 18.5 lb spring. I shoot both starting target and hotrod hardball loads with the same spring, and for me, it'll go boom every time. If I've brought novice shooters along, that's not necessarily the case. The only thing that changed was the shooter and his/her grip.
 
I'd like to see someone who's bashing this guy's videos to post up a video of THEM limpwristing...
 
My only story or reason for thinking that limpwristing exists is this:

When I was a teen (before I could buy a gun) my family went shooting with a guy who had just bought a couple of brand new guns. One of them was one of the cheap chinese 1911 clones you could buy back then. Brand new, he'd never fired it... and he was pissed by the end of the second magazine. It was constantly jamming. When it didn't jam he couldn't hit within a mile of the target. Cheap chinese junk! He was going to take it back it was so bad. Well, I said how I'd never fired a 1911 before and I know it's jamming and all but gee I'd sure like to try it. He reluctantly handed me a loaded magazine and I proceeded to fire the magazine load without any problems (and hit where I was wanted to once I realized that the fixed sights were pointing low). He tried it again and it stovepiped several times. My father tried it and it worked fine. The guy went back to his lever-action and his revolver at that point.
 
Limpwristing is real. A couple weeks ago, I wittnessed it first hand at the range. Somebody was letting a young kid ~11ish shoot a 1911 with a Ciener kit. While the kid was shooting the pistol, it was consistantly jamming in cycling after every shot. When the adult shot the pistol, to function check it, it was shooting VERY reliably. The little kid's hands weren't big enough to get a good grasp on the grip, and he didn't have enough strength in his wrists either.
 
The guy who owns the gun range I shoot at sold me a Springfield Champion years ago, and it kept failing to eject. He told me that it must be my grip! After trying the thing several times and it doing the same thing, it turned out that it was the spring. I've never had another 1911 do that. I tend to agre that it is the gun and not the user. Any number of things could go wrong, but for a more accurate test, find a flamer that likes guns and give him 100 rounds. Make sure he's a real girly man!!!lol

Disclaimer: This is not to offend any men who may like men!!!!
 
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Sorry, it doesn't prove a thing, and I've seen limp-wristing cause malfunctions myself.
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It helps to read the thread before posting. I've said several times no one is denying it can't happen. What I'm saying is that it's not a valid excuse for a malfunction given there are plenty of weapons that won't malfunction regardless of how you hold them.

As Hawk posted, there has been tests done by members of this forum where they laid a pistol unsupported on a sandbag and give it several inches of slack before capturing it thereby preventing it from falling to the ground.

Unless you're calling that poster a liar, then you have to assume his tests were real as were the results. No human can limp wrist a gun worse than it not being held at all.

I plan on conducting similar tests my next time out. The guns will be completely unsupported.

Shall we take bets? :)
 
If you've ever watched someone fire a gun in slow motion limp-wristed, some shooters actually "wag" the gun more than once, ie. they basically shake it up and down twice. There was a slow motion video not long ago of guys shooting a .500 S&W and doing it. I can't tell you for sure if that is something that is more likely to induce a malfunction or not, but I can tell you that is something a completely unsupported pistol will not do.

The nature of logic is that it takes a great deal of testing to prove something beyond a reasonable doubt, but it only takes a single success to disprove something said to be impossible. I've seen plenty of guns that are otherwise entirely reliable in multiple shooters hands malfunction when used by a inexperienced shooter.
 
Every so often a thread comes up about brass hitting the shooter in the head. This happens as a result of a mechanic problem or a limp wrist-related problem. After firing, the muzzle is allowed to jump high enough and the gun to toque in the hands such that the case that usually would eject out to the side and back ends up ejecting into the shooter's head.

You can see it in this thread on TFL...
http://208.67.249.138/forums/showthread.php?t=167755&highlight=brass+hit+face

So the image shows a good limp wrist result where the gun has rocked back, pivoting at the wrist, muzzle pointed skyward. Of course, it has also torqued over to the left as well.

Note that sturmgewehr's vids don't show this sort of muzzle rise. He is dampening the muzzle rise during recoil by absorbing it through his elbows and shoulders as evidence by the gun and hand positions seem moving backwards (toward his body) a few inches.
 
If you've ever watched someone fire a gun in slow motion limp-wristed, some shooters actually "wag" the gun more than once, ie. they basically shake it up and down twice.
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You mean like this:

th_sig_slow_motion.jpg
 
The nature of logic is that it takes a great deal of testing to prove something beyond a reasonable doubt, but it only takes a single success to disprove something said to be impossible. I've seen plenty of guns that are otherwise entirely reliable in multiple shooters hands malfunction when used by a inexperienced shooter.
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Nobody's saying a limp-wrist malf is impossible.

What some of us are saying is that "limp wrist" is like bigfoot - it's possible he's out there but we've seen far too many cases where something else has been mis-identified as bigfoot to take it as seriously as some others.

Personally, I'm very uncomfortable with granting a diagnosis of "limp wrist" with firearms that are unlubricated, mis-sprung or fed goofy ammo. Eliminate the root cause and the "limp wrist" doesn't happen, n'cest pas?

I've seen plenty, if fact too many, guns diagnosed as being "limp wristed" start running when the firearm is fixed. Anecdotes don't count.
 
So the image shows a good limp wrist result where the gun has rocked back, pivoting at the wrist, muzzle pointed skyward. Of course, it has also torqued over to the left as well.

Note that sturmgewehr's vids don't show this sort of muzzle rise. He is dampening the muzzle rise during recoil by absorbing it through his elbows and shoulders as evidence by the gun and hand positions seem moving backwards (toward his body) a few inches.
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ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!? (EDIT: I don't mean this to be an angry question :))That's a .50 AE and by the looks of it, the gun cycled just fine. But I've seen people that weighed 150lbs shooting the .50 AE and that gun turns them inside-out. If you look at the kid, his elbows are locked and his shoulders are firm, two things I've been told several times here are critical to limp wristing (elbows unlocked and shoulders relaxed).

Which is it?

But to show a 130lbs kid shooting a .50 AE which would cause anyone his size to do the exact same thing, and show pics of the gun actually cycling as it should, then claim that's an example of a limp wrist is kind of funny. :)
 
Nobody's saying a limp-wrist malf is impossible.
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Hawk, I'm convinced half of the people responding don't bother to even read the thread. Several times people have said "I know guns can be limp wristed because I've seen it" and several times they've been reminded no one is saying it can't happen.

What can ya do? :p
 
All I know is that one local match a range-owned XD9 was part of the stage - everyone had to shoot a few rounds through it. For one shooter, the thing would jam every round, but would not do so for anyone else. I don't know what to call that other than limpwristing, seeing as she has caused that to happen on polymer pistols before.
 
All I know is that one local match a range-owned XD9 was part of the stage - everyone had to shoot a few rounds through it. For one shooter, the thing would jam every round, but would not do so for anyone else. I don't know what to call that other than limpwristing, seeing as she has caused that to happen on polymer pistols before.
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May very well have been limp wrist.

Might have been thumb-riding the slide. I've been quite amazed by how that can happen without one's hide being immediately sand-papered.

Fact is, nobody knows if nobody took the time to properly diagnose and correct the shooter's issue. I once saw a polymer pistol with an apparent limp-wrist actually be a "cup and saucer" grip that pushed the magazine farther up than designed which evidently put some drag on the system - I don't know this for certain but the same shooter could one-hand the thing without incident.
 
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!? That's a .50 AE and by the looks of it, the gun cycled just fine.
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Umm... sturm... you do realize that the DE is one of the very few semi-automatic pistols that absolutely meets your definition of "quality" because it is gas operated, right? You could dangle it by strings and it would cycle because it doesn't use recoil to cycle the action.
 
Umm, yes I do know it's gas operated. So are you saying the few gas operated pistols out there are limp wrist proof? Cool, got any proof?

How about gas delayed like the P7? Are they limp wrist proof or more prone to limp wristing in your expert opinion (I'm sure you have done your own tests to confirm your statements either way)? :D
 
Umm... sturm... you do realize that the DE is one of the very few semi-automatic pistols that absolutely meets your definition of "quality" because it is gas operated, right? You could dangle it by strings and it would cycle because it doesn't use recoil to cycle the action.
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Time to resurrect another thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=266825

While I agree with Mr. Ames I sure couldn't say that my take on the DE was accepted as though I was the keeper of the revealed word. Too bad, I rather liked this:
Hawk said:
I generally turn curmudgeon when I hear "limp wrist" in general. The Desert Eagle would invoke the demon-curmudgeon faster than most. It's gas operated - if you can limp-wrist a DE, you can probably limp wrist an M-4 carbine.
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Magnum Research doesn't offer much comfort:
http://www.magnumresearch.com/FAQ_deserteagle.asp
Particularly the "how to shoot" doc file.

But, as one of the curmudgeons in residence, I really don't believe any manufacturer in re: limp wrist anyway.

I am chagrined to note that my correspondent noted that holding up the mag generally causes malfs. Like they say on NPR, "this I believe".
 
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