Stevie-Ray
Member
I'll agree with the AMT crap. But not so the Taurus PT-22. Mine has been ultra-reliable and quality-wise, it's way above my KelTec P-32.
List of handgun models that are "Lemons"
- Thread starter firestar
- Start date
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Like I said before, this is not my list of guns to avoid, it is from what others have posted and from I have gleaned from reading many posts on the net. I never said it was going to be totally accurate, it is just a guide on what guns to avoid if you don't want to risk getting a lemon.
The Kimber guns I am talking about are the POLY framed versions ONLY, I have nothing against Kimber but those guns DO have a ton of problems with them. I don't really care if you have one that worked or if you have a Sigma that was 100% reliable and accurate, it is about letting people know what guns you are more likely to have problems with. I don't think anyone will argue that you are more likely to have problems with a S&W Sigma than you are to have problems with a Glock or a Ruger.
Don't get hung up on the fact that a pistol that you like is on the list, it just means that some people have the opinion that, that gun particular gun is a dog. It is not the end all and be all of lists. It is just a road map to newbies on a few pot holes to avoid. If they want to buy a gun that is on the list, that is fine with me but I wish I had a list of guns to avoid years ago. I hope this helps someone avoid wasting their money on a gun that is not up to standards.
I admit that I don't have any first hand experience with many of the guns on the list, I am taking your words for it on many guns.
The Kimber guns I am talking about are the POLY framed versions ONLY, I have nothing against Kimber but those guns DO have a ton of problems with them. I don't really care if you have one that worked or if you have a Sigma that was 100% reliable and accurate, it is about letting people know what guns you are more likely to have problems with. I don't think anyone will argue that you are more likely to have problems with a S&W Sigma than you are to have problems with a Glock or a Ruger.
Don't get hung up on the fact that a pistol that you like is on the list, it just means that some people have the opinion that, that gun particular gun is a dog. It is not the end all and be all of lists. It is just a road map to newbies on a few pot holes to avoid. If they want to buy a gun that is on the list, that is fine with me but I wish I had a list of guns to avoid years ago. I hope this helps someone avoid wasting their money on a gun that is not up to standards.
I admit that I don't have any first hand experience with many of the guns on the list, I am taking your words for it on many guns.
longbeard
Member
Israel Arms Int. (IAI) .45ACP, total P.O.S.
Mannlicher
Member
Firestar states:"My intent is not to any particular gun but to provide a reasonable list of guns that should be avoided unless you know what you are doing or are prepared to take the risk in buying something with questionable a reputation"
I have owned several of the guns on your list. I do not agree with your conclusions.
One of the WORST handguns I ever owned was a HK .40 USP Compact. They generally have a pretty good rep. Mine was awful. My Sigma, on the other hand, is a jewel.
I have owned several of the guns on your list. I do not agree with your conclusions.
One of the WORST handguns I ever owned was a HK .40 USP Compact. They generally have a pretty good rep. Mine was awful. My Sigma, on the other hand, is a jewel.
I don't think it is possible to put together a list like this. Especially when you try to compile such a list from reading Internet posts. You know neither the bona fides nor the integrity of the person making the post.
Of the firearms you list, I have owned AMT, Rossi and Llama and found them to be reliable and reasonably accurate. Several of my friends have owned others from your list and found them to be accurate and reliable.
I, for one, would never recommend a Glock to anyone. But then again, I would recommend the Charles Daly line but numerous people here would disagree. Redhawk1 is a good example (not slamming you personally, just an example). He states unequivocally that Hi-Point firearms are junk. But yet there are a number of people who post here that have indicated the Hi-Points are reliable and reasonably accurate for what they cost.
Of the firearms you list, I have owned AMT, Rossi and Llama and found them to be reliable and reasonably accurate. Several of my friends have owned others from your list and found them to be accurate and reliable.
I, for one, would never recommend a Glock to anyone. But then again, I would recommend the Charles Daly line but numerous people here would disagree. Redhawk1 is a good example (not slamming you personally, just an example). He states unequivocally that Hi-Point firearms are junk. But yet there are a number of people who post here that have indicated the Hi-Points are reliable and reasonably accurate for what they cost.
standingbear
Member
i remember 1 .22 i just looked at
was at a gunshop and lookibng at a intratec,the 22 that used 10/22 mags..anyhow,the gunshop owner raved about how fun it was and even went as far as loading it up and taking me outback to his range to test it.i told him"you can go ahead and show me how it works". he tried and tried to get it to fire in a semi mode and not single shot,clear,load and fire mode.i told him i was just curious anyways.he said musta been the ammo and ill knock 50 off the price.ill pass i said and his face turned a red of embarrassment(or anger).i left,he was still trying to clear the jam.
was at a gunshop and lookibng at a intratec,the 22 that used 10/22 mags..anyhow,the gunshop owner raved about how fun it was and even went as far as loading it up and taking me outback to his range to test it.i told him"you can go ahead and show me how it works". he tried and tried to get it to fire in a semi mode and not single shot,clear,load and fire mode.i told him i was just curious anyways.he said musta been the ammo and ill knock 50 off the price.ill pass i said and his face turned a red of embarrassment(or anger).i left,he was still trying to clear the jam.
Edward429451
member
I'll second this one. Mine wont get a full mag out of it before it blows the extractor off. Been fixed lots of times, 1st mag kills it again, everytime.
Brad Johnson
Member
Agree some. Disagree some.
I agree on some and disagree. Here goes
1. S&W Sigma
-agree
2. All Jennings products
-agree
3. All Bryco products
-disagree. I have a Bryco 380 that's clunky and cobby, but it's never missed a lick.
4. Taurus PT145 (I think that is the model that is considered bad)
-disagree. The problem with the early guns was corrected (and the early frames will be replaced at no cost). The later models are worth considering.
5. AMT Hardballer (all AMT guns)
-agree
6. Vector
-disagree. I've shot several different Vektor models, and they all seemed to function fine.
7. Davis
-agree
8. Grendal
-agree
9. All Lorcin products
-agree
10. Taurus PT-22
-disagree. Not a bad choice for a low-cost garden pistol
11. Kel-Tec P-40
-disagree. Unrefined, but not junk.
12. All RG revolvers
-agree
13. All Talon products
-no opinion
14. All Intratec products esp., Tec-9, AB-10 (same gun)
-disagree. Cheap, clunky, and magnets for bad press, but not bad for a fun plinker.
15. Egyptian Helwan 9mm
-no opinion
16. Para-Ordanance P13 P14
-disagree. Maintenance intensive, but very nice to shoot.
17. Kimber II Series 1911s (poly frame guns only)
-disagree. Some models had problems, but they were resolved and Kimber will make it right if you own an earlier model.
18. Rossi Revolvers
-agree
19. All Standard Arms products
-no opinion
20. Llama
-disagree. Some Llama products aren't bad when you consider the price.
21. Accu-Tec BL-9
-agree
I agree on some and disagree. Here goes
1. S&W Sigma
-agree
2. All Jennings products
-agree
3. All Bryco products
-disagree. I have a Bryco 380 that's clunky and cobby, but it's never missed a lick.
4. Taurus PT145 (I think that is the model that is considered bad)
-disagree. The problem with the early guns was corrected (and the early frames will be replaced at no cost). The later models are worth considering.
5. AMT Hardballer (all AMT guns)
-agree
6. Vector
-disagree. I've shot several different Vektor models, and they all seemed to function fine.
7. Davis
-agree
8. Grendal
-agree
9. All Lorcin products
-agree
10. Taurus PT-22
-disagree. Not a bad choice for a low-cost garden pistol
11. Kel-Tec P-40
-disagree. Unrefined, but not junk.
12. All RG revolvers
-agree
13. All Talon products
-no opinion
14. All Intratec products esp., Tec-9, AB-10 (same gun)
-disagree. Cheap, clunky, and magnets for bad press, but not bad for a fun plinker.
15. Egyptian Helwan 9mm
-no opinion
16. Para-Ordanance P13 P14
-disagree. Maintenance intensive, but very nice to shoot.
17. Kimber II Series 1911s (poly frame guns only)
-disagree. Some models had problems, but they were resolved and Kimber will make it right if you own an earlier model.
18. Rossi Revolvers
-agree
19. All Standard Arms products
-no opinion
20. Llama
-disagree. Some Llama products aren't bad when you consider the price.
21. Accu-Tec BL-9
-agree
cratz2
Member
Seems to me the creator of this list has done a lot more reading than shooting. 
Maybe it's just a question of semantics, but perhaps if the thread had to do with: 'guns you might not want as your first' or something like that but I've owned several guns listed and have shot several guns listed with relatively few issues. Hi Points are generally quite reliable with ball ammo, I have a P14/45 that's never failed, and a unreliable Rossi revolver? News to me!
Just my opinion... YMMV as they say.
Maybe it's just a question of semantics, but perhaps if the thread had to do with: 'guns you might not want as your first' or something like that but I've owned several guns listed and have shot several guns listed with relatively few issues. Hi Points are generally quite reliable with ball ammo, I have a P14/45 that's never failed, and a unreliable Rossi revolver? News to me!
Just my opinion... YMMV as they say.
Maybe you should do a little more reading cratz2.
Try reading the entire thread and not just the first and last post. Read what I wrote. It is not just my list, it is the collective list of many many experienced shooters.When one guy has a problem with a gun that does not make that model a lemon, just that particular gun is a lemon. When MANY people complain about the same gun over several years, that gun starts to get a bad rep. All I am doing is trying to group the guns with bad reps. I don't make any claims that those reps are deserved but I would be extra carefull about buying a gun with a bad rep if it was my hard earned money. Some guns with bad reps can be good guns when you get one that doesn't suffer from the problems that it is supposed to have.
Most guns are going to be pretty good, even the ones that are considered lemons. Most of the guns in the lemon catagory are probably good guns but they may have a higher chance of being messed up than a gun that is on a "greatest hits" type of list.
How can a gun model be a lemon if you have one that works? Well, I'm sure that there are a lot Jenning's pistols out there that work, does that mean that Jenning's doesn't deserve the bad rep because YOU have a good one? NO! Think about it! It is not about YOUR gun, it is about the intangable point of view of many people that have had experience with those guns.
cratz2
Member
But when you post that certain guns are lemons, whether your own ideas or regurgitating those of others, it is your post.
I can name several people with KelTec P40s that work just fine, how many can you name, by name, that have P40s that will not feed reliably? I have a Para P14/45 Ltd that has never jammed using ball ammo and the supposedly difficult to feed 200 Gr LSWC handloads and know several others (including LEOs that carry them) that have minimal issues. How many folks do you personally know that have a full size Para 1911 that doesn't run right with known good ammo?
And I assure you I read the entire thread... but you suggesting that makes one think that you usually don't.
This is almost laughable.
If I had $1 for every time someone that had never shot a Hi Point said they 'were junk' or that you 'can't get through a mag without a jam' I could pretty much buy any damn gun I wanted! This is the jist of what I was saying in my previous post. I understand your intention in trying to save some folks some money on junk guns but to have a post rehashing other people's claims, not backed up by your own personal experience is almost libelous.Guns like the PT145, Sigmas, Llamas and Kimber poly guns have spotty reputation at worst. Though 'many people' have had bad experiences with them, many more, I would imagine, have had minimal issues. Sort of like the guy that will swear up and down to me that my Chevy truck (with 213,000 miles on it) isn't as good as a Ford as his 2 month old F250 is in the shop getting the differential replaced. Neither of these may be indicative of the product, but most folks just don't truly have the experience with them to make such accusations, esp in writing, no less! As I said, they are more than likely re-stating what they have heard others say who, as likely as not, have no actual experience with them anyway!
Anyway... good luck with your list.
As I have said, this is not a scientific thread, it is just a bunch of people's opinions. I don't agree with all the lemons either but there are guns that seem to have a bad rap so I included them.
I only know one person with a Kel-Tec P-40 and his gun did not work so based on my experience, 100% of Kel-Tec P-40 don't work. Does that mean that 100% of Kel-Tec P-40s don't work? No. All it means is, out of the people that I know who have that gun, I have gleaned one small bit of info, it is not about one gun, it is about the group opinion of them. From what I understand, the group opinion on many of these guns is that you are more likely to get a lemon if you buy one of these as opposed to buying a gun that does not have a bad rep.
The idea is, you will be safer if you buy a gun with a known quality reputation than a gun with a known bad rep. I can't say if the reps are true but if a Sigma is considered by most people to be a hit or miss gun and a Glock 17 is considered to be a reliable gun by most, which is a safer bet?
You forget that not everyone is a "gun nut" a lot of peole are not that interested or gun savy as some of the folks here. Some are just getting into guns and they are looking for a cunsumer reports sort of list to help them avoid making a mistake. I am not out to flame a gun, I am out to give people some info that I never had. I had to learn the hard way. People that have more experience don't need lists like this because they have the info they need. Not everyone wants to devote a lifetime to trial and error to find out what some good guns are.
I only know one person with a Kel-Tec P-40 and his gun did not work so based on my experience, 100% of Kel-Tec P-40 don't work. Does that mean that 100% of Kel-Tec P-40s don't work? No. All it means is, out of the people that I know who have that gun, I have gleaned one small bit of info, it is not about one gun, it is about the group opinion of them. From what I understand, the group opinion on many of these guns is that you are more likely to get a lemon if you buy one of these as opposed to buying a gun that does not have a bad rep.
The idea is, you will be safer if you buy a gun with a known quality reputation than a gun with a known bad rep. I can't say if the reps are true but if a Sigma is considered by most people to be a hit or miss gun and a Glock 17 is considered to be a reliable gun by most, which is a safer bet?
You forget that not everyone is a "gun nut" a lot of peole are not that interested or gun savy as some of the folks here. Some are just getting into guns and they are looking for a cunsumer reports sort of list to help them avoid making a mistake. I am not out to flame a gun, I am out to give people some info that I never had. I had to learn the hard way. People that have more experience don't need lists like this because they have the info they need. Not everyone wants to devote a lifetime to trial and error to find out what some good guns are.
makdaddy03
member
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2003
- Messages
- 638
Lemons that come to my mind are :
Llama MiniMax .45acp
EAA Witness .40S&W
FMJ Cobray Derringer type handgun.
Oh Yes What Jeff said Ramline.
Llama MiniMax .45acp
EAA Witness .40S&W
FMJ Cobray Derringer type handgun.
Oh Yes What Jeff said Ramline.
Last edited:
makdaddy03
member
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2003
- Messages
- 638
Had to put on my shades for that one.
""what I've delt with over the years:
Star
AMT
Iver Johnson
Carbon 15""
Star? Your kidding? I've never had any problems with my "model A" in 9mm Largo, nor has my Dad, who has owned several Star pistols over the years... I wouldn't call it a great gun, but is sure isn't a lemon if you ask me...
Star
AMT
Iver Johnson
Carbon 15""
Star? Your kidding? I've never had any problems with my "model A" in 9mm Largo, nor has my Dad, who has owned several Star pistols over the years... I wouldn't call it a great gun, but is sure isn't a lemon if you ask me...
Jim March
Member
Charter Arms/Charco/Charter2000 revolvers:
The design is actually quite good, both on the smaller 38Spls (Undercover and Off Duty) and larger 44Spl/357 5-shot (Bulldog) types. Like a Ruger SA, there's no sideplates, the action, triggerguard and grip frame "fork up" into the primary cylinder frame. All use transfer bars. (The designer worked on several Blackhawk variants for Ruger, and it shows!)
Quality control on the early Charter Arms variants varied between good and fair, with some lemons. If it has an exposed ejector rod and case-hardened hammer, and it says "Charter Arms", it may be OK (check it out in detail, see also the "revolver checkout procedure", first post in the revolver forum here on THR). But finding a gunsmith that will wrench on it may be trouble; they're rather..."weird" inside.
The design was later bought by Charco. Quality varied between "barely acceptable" and "DEAR GOD" (as in spitting the barrel 10ft downrange during a factory demo!).
The design is now owned by Charter 2000. By all reports, they're rough-looking but with surprisingly few lemons - in other words, precision machine made but zero hand-fitting or cleanup.
The 44Spls are the smallest revos of that caliber made, and will fit in most S&W J-frame leather holsters. Buffallo Bore ammo has a "warm 44Spl" that clearly says: "works OK in any 44Spl gun in good condition EXCEPT Charter Arms/Charco/Charter2000 series".
That said, the 44 Charter worked just fine for the "Son Of Sam" mass murderer.
Short form: I *love* my very early Undercover 38, but it was carefully hand-picked, I don't feed it much 38+P and unless you're willing to seriously research/handpick, AVOID the whole breed.
The design is actually quite good, both on the smaller 38Spls (Undercover and Off Duty) and larger 44Spl/357 5-shot (Bulldog) types. Like a Ruger SA, there's no sideplates, the action, triggerguard and grip frame "fork up" into the primary cylinder frame. All use transfer bars. (The designer worked on several Blackhawk variants for Ruger, and it shows!)
Quality control on the early Charter Arms variants varied between good and fair, with some lemons. If it has an exposed ejector rod and case-hardened hammer, and it says "Charter Arms", it may be OK (check it out in detail, see also the "revolver checkout procedure", first post in the revolver forum here on THR). But finding a gunsmith that will wrench on it may be trouble; they're rather..."weird" inside.
The design was later bought by Charco. Quality varied between "barely acceptable" and "DEAR GOD" (as in spitting the barrel 10ft downrange during a factory demo!).
The design is now owned by Charter 2000. By all reports, they're rough-looking but with surprisingly few lemons - in other words, precision machine made but zero hand-fitting or cleanup.
The 44Spls are the smallest revos of that caliber made, and will fit in most S&W J-frame leather holsters. Buffallo Bore ammo has a "warm 44Spl" that clearly says: "works OK in any 44Spl gun in good condition EXCEPT Charter Arms/Charco/Charter2000 series".
That said, the 44 Charter worked just fine for the "Son Of Sam" mass murderer
.Short form: I *love* my very early Undercover 38, but it was carefully hand-picked, I don't feed it much 38+P and unless you're willing to seriously research/handpick, AVOID the whole breed.
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