Loading holy black 45 colt. Questions and recomendations

[Ugly Sauce]

Haven't looked lately, but around four-five years ago one could still pick up good, shootable Trapdoors for around $600-$700. I have a rifle and carbine. My carbine, the one in the pic, is not an original carbine, but it's an old conversion from a rifle, done back in the day when places like Bannerman's were buying them from Sam, and making carbines out of them because they sold better. It's a very nice conversion, not a hack-job. And as you can see, she's very accurate, they don't require a pristine bore to spin a bullet. I hate to admit it, but I believe my carbine is a little more accurate than my rifle. Anyhow, the trapdoors rule, in my rifle I can get 80 grains of fffg under a 400 grain bullet. The carbine I just shoot with "only" 70 grains.

 

[rodwha]

Holy smokes! What a silly thing to complain about!

I thought that at first when I read it, but after he explained it was a term used to look down on non purists I fully understand and agree for the most part. I don’t take offense and try to assume the best if it’s not obvious. I typically see it in conjunction with those who use substitutes. I see it a lot, among other things, on the traditional forum.

 

[barnetmill]

to recreate the proper full power black powder loads, one needs to find old style balloon cases that had a higher capacity.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

to recreate the proper full power black powder loads, one needs to find old style balloon cases that had a higher capacity.

Good luck with that. Boxes of the old balloon head cases are not exactly falling out of trees.

I have a box of old Remington-UMC balloon head 45 Colt cases. I even cut one in half to compare the powder capacity to modern solid head brass. Yup, no question the old balloon head brass has more powder capacity. One of my projects is to load up a few rounds of the old balloon head cases with powder and see how much more it can actually hold. As I believe I stated earlier in this thread, my standard 45 Colt powder charge is about 35 grains of Schuetzen FFg under a 250 grain Big Lube bullet with about 1/16" - 1/8" of compression. I would be surprised if more than 38 grains fit into these balloon head cases with the same amount of compression. Do you really think you are going to notice the difference between 35 grains of FFg and 38 grains of FFg?

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I have no problem getting 40 grains into a modern case, under a 250 grain bullet. I've never measured the amount of compression, but it's not an "insane" or "crazy" amount. With a 255 grain bullet I cast, which is kind of short and squat, I get 900fps from a 5.5" barrel. I saw a video on u-toob once where they were cracking 1000fps out of a 7.5" barrel, with 250's and 40 grains of powder.

Looks to me like that extra space around the primer, on the balloon case would not amount to many grains. Considering that the old loads were compressed loads, not loaded with loose powder, up to the base of the bullet, I don't think the capacity, or volume of the case has that much to do as far as how much powder it will hold. How much compression is more of a determining factor, methinks. But I suppose, the less case volume, the more you have to compress the charge, up to the point where you couldn't compress it anymore.

I like them big-lube bullets, but they are longer than typical "little-lube" bullets, and I imagine those reduce how much powder you can get in the case. They might require "too much" compression to get 40 grains under them. ?

However, for sure, the difference between 35 grains and 38 would be hard to determine. Probably less than the normal velocity variations from shot to shot.

 

[orpington]

Driftwood,

In your discussion, why no mention of a filler? Cream of Wheat is definitely less per pound than is Goex.

 

[TheOutlawKid]

Im guessing you can get just as much fffg in the newer cases as you can ffg in the older ballon head cases...that is by weight not volume. I have always been a weight kinda guy...never did like using volume measures. When i make my paper cartridges i always use my digital grain scale to make sure every load matches...definately cuts down on deviation and helps with accuracy.

 

[MIOkie]

Blackpowderwarrior...

For use with the little Lee Classic Loader, I strongly recommend getting the Auto-Prime hand tool for priming your cases.

It speeds up the process greatly... and avoids soiling your shorts when a primer goes off while seating it with the supplied steel rod.

As for the Holy Black... I always thought it’s main purpose was in charging The Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch.

 

[DocRock]

Im guessing you can get just as much fffg in the newer cases as you can ffg in the older ballon head cases...that is by weight not volume. I have always been a weight kinda guy...never did like using volume measures. When i make my paper cartridges i always use my digital grain scale to make sure every load matches...definately cuts down on deviation and helps with accuracy.

I use exact weight in long range rifle cases, but for 45LC, or cap and ball cartridges? Seems excessive. I have done a good bit of chronographing of BP loads and SD with Lee dipper volume throws of 3Fffg Olde Eynsford has consistently been below 25 fps, which is absolutely good enough for BP revolver loads. Obviously, to each his own, but for me, weighing each individual load for 45LC falls squarely in the gilding the lily category.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Well, if one is going to use a good amount of compression in a cartridge case, it's important to use volume to get a consistent amount of compression each time. More importantly, to get consistent compression from batch to batch of powder. My 40 grain volume of powder, in my 45LC loads, actually weighs out to 42 grains. Changing powder, to a new batch or lot, or brand, or going from fffg to ffg, (just as a for instance) might be...39 grains by weight, but, at the same volume I don't have to change my home made "gauges" to measure the volume I want, or I don't have to start all over and change weights, to get the volume I want. ? Hope that made sense. In compressed loads, volume is more important than weight. A consistent amount of "crush" is more important than one or two, or three grains in weight.

And that's why, if you dissect an old cartridge, let's say an ancient .44-40, the powder charge may indeed only weigh out to 37, 39, 36, 42, whatever grains, because it was loaded by volume. The original measure used to create the load, was made from a weighed charge. It's always funny to hear of someone pulling the bullet off an antique black powder cartridge, and observing: "the powder was so old, that it had turned into a solid pellet". Well no, it was compressed into a "pellet' when it was originally loaded.

I use quite a bit of compression, and compress the powder in a separate step from seating the bullet. More than a small amount of compression usually results in a deformed bullet, if you try to compress the powder with the bullet.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

In your discussion, why no mention of a filler? Cream of Wheat is definitely less per pound than is Goex.

I never use filler in my BP loads. Just powder. It is not a matter of cost. I tried using some corn meal as filler many years ago. It worked OK, but it was more trouble than it was worth. I am not interested in lighter loads, so I have no need for filler. Adding filler just adds to the complexity of loading BP. I like to keep it simple. I dump in the powder, seat and crimp the bullet, that's it.

 

[Jamesomeara]

Wow, let me please say thank you to every single contributor in this series. I read it twice just cause. I have two Army and two Navy c&p pistols (new to me .44) for cowboy action shooting plans. I'm a green horn for sure but can handle good instruction. Is there a "must have" book/bible I can get to learn from and would any of you be willing to message me a "do THIS" to get started. I'm In Minnesota and winter will be long, good learning time I figure. Thank you in advance,

 

[orpington]

I never use filler in my BP loads. Just powder. It is not a matter of cost. I tried using some corn meal as filler many years ago. It worked OK, but it was more trouble than it was worth. I am not interested in lighter loads, so I have no need for filler. Adding filler just adds to the complexity of loading BP. I like to keep it simple. I dump in the powder, seat and crimp the bullet, that's it.

That's a good response.

I find that there is plenty of punch in my .45 Colt blackpowder reloads, even with filler. YMMV

A .45 Colt blackpowder round is a formidable foe. Don't let it fool you!

 

[arcticap]

Wow, let me please say thank you to every single contributor in this series. I read it twice just cause. I have two Army and two Navy c&p pistols (new to me .44) for cowboy action shooting plans. I'm a green horn for sure but can handle good instruction. Is there a "must have" book/bible I can get to learn from and would any of you be willing to message me a "do THIS" to get started. I'm In Minnesota and winter will be long, good learning time I figure. Thank you in advance,

Driftwood Johnson mentioned a book by Mike Venturino in this post: --->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/reloading-45lc-with-bp.695886/#post-8651024

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

2.2 cc dipper in 45 colt case (2f or 3f). I use the big lube 200 gr for my 24" rifles (like the extra lube groove size) and a normal 200 gr Missouri Bullet Co with BP lube for the Ruger OMV's (enough lube for a 5.5" barrel)

Good way to do it. You wind up with around 35 grains of powder that way and a good strong load. Especially with 3f.

I generally keep some of both loaded and us 2f for main match and have some 3f loads for any longer range side matches. I shoot 44-40 in rifles though but same load and bullet weight.

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

There is no reason to use filler in a 45 colt if shooting from a revolver. Just use 45 Schofield brass. Most rifles will even cycle 45 Schofield but since I would never shoot 45 colt black powder in a rifle I personally have never tried.

 

[orpington]

There is no reason to use filler in a 45 colt if shooting from a revolver. Just use 45 Schofield brass. Most rifles will even cycle 45 Schofield but since I would never shoot 45 colt black powder in a rifle I personally have never tried.

Why would that be so? Less punch, and wear & tear, on my nearly 140 year old revolver. Plus Cream of Wheat is both cheaper and more readily available than Goex. A rationing of sorts.

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

Why would that be so? Less punch, and wear & tear, on my nearly 140 year old revolver. Plus Cream of Wheat is both cheaper and more readily available than Goex. A rationing of sorts.

I agree with the lighter load in many applications. My point was it's just easier to use the shorter Schofield case and not need to bother with filler. I shoot 45 Schofield cases with 28 grains of black powder for a reduced black powder load. Still plenty of punch but more pleasant to shoot and more economical.

Actually I seldom ever load 45 Colt cases with black powder.

Think of it as 44 special vs 44 mag or 38 vs 357.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Wow, let me please say thank you to every single contributor in this series. I read it twice just cause. I have two Army and two Navy c&p pistols (new to me .44) for cowboy action shooting plans. I'm a green horn for sure but can handle good instruction. Is there a "must have" book/bible I can get to learn from and would any of you be willing to message me a "do THIS" to get started. I'm In Minnesota and winter will be long, good learning time I figure. Thank you in advance,

Howdy

First off, Cap & Ball revolvers are not ideal for the new CAS shooter. Shooting in a competitive sport, no matter how 'non-competitive' you want to be, is a learning experience. It is confusing enough to get started with cartridge revolvers, much less to start with the added complexity of Cap & Ball.

I do understand from a cost standpoint it is less expensive to start with two C&B revolvers instead of 2 cartridge revolvers, but the added complexity of loading C&B instead of cartridges is one more thing to have to contend with at your first match.

So my advice to you is to get thoroughly familiar with your C&B pistols before you show up for a CAS match.

Mike Venturino wrote 4 books a number of years ago, and when I first dipped my toe into putting Black Powder into cartridges, they were my Bibles for shooting BP in cartridges.

Here are the four books. As you can see, my copies are well worn, I have referred to them a lot over the years. The Buffalo Rifles book is strictly about the old single shot rifles, so it will not be of much use to the budding CAS shooter. The other three have sections about loading all of the guns with Smokeless powder as well as Black Powder. I have been shooting Black Powder for many years, and I have found these to be the best books on the market, bar none. For Cap & Ball revolvers, the Colt Single Actions book has the most extensive information about Cap & Ball revolvers, although Mike confines himself to the Colt C&B revolvers only. Nothing in there about Remingtons or any other C&B revolvers. I just checked and all four books are available on Amazon. By the way, the only thing I disagree with Mike on in his books is he says Magnum primers are needed for Black Powder cartridges. Black Powder is easier to ignite than Smokeless powder, and Magnum primers are not needed. Mike also shows dropping powder into cartridges using a drop tube. In my humble opinion this is also unnecessary except for precision accuracy when shooting a Buffalo rifle at targets a few hundred yards away.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

There is no reason to use filler in a 45 colt if shooting from a revolver. Just use 45 Schofield brass. Most rifles will even cycle 45 Schofield but since I would never shoot 45 colt black powder in a rifle I personally have never tried.

Nice thing about shooting black in rifles, is that it's a really easy clean-up. Just clean the bore. Little if any fouling gets in the action, as the case expands and seals the chamber. I shoot black powder loads exclusively in my .45-70's, including my Marlin. Have also shot it in the .30-30. I have not shot pistol cartridges loaded with black in a rifle, but it should be the same deal. Easy-peasy clean up.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

That's a good response.

I find that there is plenty of punch in my .45 Colt blackpowder reloads, even with filler. YMMV

A .45 Colt blackpowder round is a formidable foe. Don't let it fool you!

Yep, Elmer Keith used to say that the "civilian load", 40 grains in the 45 Colt, would "punch" through a bull's (cow) skull just fine, where many other pistol calibers would not.

 

[orpington]

I agree with the lighter load in many applications. My point was it's just easier to use the shorter Schofield case and not need to bother with filler. I shoot 45 Schofield cases with 28 grains of black powder for a reduced black powder load. Still plenty of punch but more pleasant to shoot and more economical.

Actually I seldom ever load 45 Colt cases with black powder.

Think of it as 44 special vs 44 mag or 38 vs 357.

What is the cost of 45 Schofield cases vs 45 Colt cases? Which doesn't really matter now as I have well over 1000 45 Colt cases and zero 45 Schofield cases, so purchasing more cases, no matter how economical, would add to the bottom line whilst my 45 Colt cases would collect dust.

Now, if I had a neighbour with a bunch of 45 Schofield cases, perhaps we could make a trade. Except my neighbours are not very pro 2A, which is a great reason not to have neighbours to begin with!

 

[.38 Special]

By the way, the only thing I disagree with Mike on in his books is he says Magnum primers are needed for Black Powder cartridges. Black Powder is easier to ignite than Smokeless powder, and Magnum primers are not needed. Mike also shows dropping powder into cartridges using a drop tube. In my humble opinion this is also unnecessary except for precision accuracy when shooting a Buffalo rifle at targets a few hundred yards away.

I agree with you about drop tubes. I use one for handgun cartridges only because it is attached to my one BP measure, which is also used for rifle cartridges, and I'm too lazy to remove it for handgun loading. I suppose it allows me to get slightly more powder into a handgun case, but I don't really care about that.

Chronograph testing, though, shows that magnum primers give more uniform velocities in both my rifle and handgun loads. I'm honestly not sure it makes any difference on the target with my handguns, but I will take it just the same.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

What is the cost of 45 Schofield cases vs 45 Colt cases? Which doesn't really matter now as I have well over 1000 45 Colt cases and zero 45 Schofield cases, so purchasing more cases, no matter how economical, would add to the bottom line whilst my 45 Colt cases would collect dust.

Howdy

Starline, is currently charging $115/500 for 45 Colt brass, $198.50/1000

Starline is the only company I am aware of that makes 45 Schofield brass. They are currently charging $121.50/500 and $202.50/1000.

I only buy from Starline these days, so I have no idea what other companies are charging for 45 Colt. I do know that Starline always has brass for both cartridges in stock, that is one reason I always buy from them. I buy all my 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian, and 38-40 brass from Starline. They usually have all of these in stock.

https://www.starlinebrass.com/

Starline only sells their brass in lots of 500 or 1000. Midway USA often has smaller quantities available slightly more expensive per piece. They currently list 100 pieces of Starline 45 Schofield brass for $24.99 but say it is out of stock and no back order.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Nice thing about shooting black in rifles, is that it's a really easy clean-up. Just clean the bore. Little if any fouling gets in the action, as the case expands and seals the chamber. I shoot black powder loads exclusively in my .45-70's, including my Marlin. Have also shot it in the .30-30. I have not shot pistol cartridges loaded with black in a rifle, but it should be the same deal. Easy-peasy clean up.

This is particularly true of the WCF cases when fired with Black Powder in a rifle. 44-40, and 38-40 expand beautifully in the chamber, because of the thinner brass at the neck, and pretty much keep 95% of the fouling in the bore. Very little gets past the case and into the mechanism. It only takes me about 5 minutes to clean my rifles with my favorite water based BP solvent. I don't own any rifles chambered for 45 Colt, but because the brass is thicker it will not expand quite so well as the WCF cases, and a bit more fouling will blow back past the case in the chamber into the mechanism.

Revolvers are a bit different because fouling blasts out of the barrel/cylinder gap and gets everywhere. It takes me a few minutes more to clean a cartridge revolver after firing it with Black Powder.

But clean up of a cartridge revolver fired with Black Powder is quicker and easier than with a C&B revolver because the chambers can be quickly and easily scrubbed from rear to front with a standard bore brush. No little nooks and crannies to clean like there are in a C&B cylinder. One of the reasons I much prefer shooting BP in a cartridge revolver as opposed to a C&B revolver.