Loading holy black 45 colt. Questions and recomendations

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

Couldn't one just trim 45 Colt brass to hold the powder load desired and bypass the extra work of the filler?

 

[Ugly Sauce]

One could. Be like, "45 Russian"!!

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

What is the cost of 45 Schofield cases vs 45 Colt cases? Which doesn't really matter now as I have well over 1000 45 Colt cases and zero 45 Schofield cases, so purchasing more cases, no matter how economical, would add to the bottom line whilst my 45 Colt cases would collect dust.

Now, if I had a neighbour with a bunch of 45 Schofield cases, perhaps we could make a trade. Except my neighbours are not very pro 2A, which is a great reason not to have neighbours to begin with!

About the same cost and many of us knowing we are going to be shooting BP start out with Schofield cases and use the Colt cases for the full power loads or smokeless powder loads. I just bought another 1000 Schofield cases and personally have a 1000 or so 45 Colt cases collecting dust but with the status of todays world I don't consider that a problem.

By the way Starline has 45 Schofield cases available right now and no 45 Colt so there's that for anyone looking for 45 cases to load black powder.

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

Couldn't one just trim 45 Colt brass to hold the powder load desired and bypass the extra work of the filler?

Yes you could but personally I would not go through the trouble of turning them down. I'd sell the Colt cases and just buy Schofield cases if I wanted shorter cases. Or a person can even go shorter and go with the 45 Cowboy cases unless in situations like mine we are not allowed to use them in our CAS event because we have to use something that was available prior to the year 1900.

There are many options without having to use filler in 45. Only time I've used filler is in 44-40 cases when I wanted a reduced load because of a bad shoulder.

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

+1 to Driftwood. I don't currently own any rifles chambered in 45Colt either for the very same reasons. My WCF caliber rifles shoot cleaner with black powder than some 45 chambered rifles I've had in the past shooting smokeless. I can shoot black powder though a rifle all season in CAS and tear the action down in the winter to clean and wonder why I bothered. Just a couple wet patches down the barrel followed up by a shot of Ballistol and clean patch and that's all it takes to clean my rifles. Literally all of five to ten minutes. As Driftwood said the revolvers are a bit different story and since I do shoot 45 revolvers (mostly using 45 Schofield) I do have a bit more cleanup on those.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Couldn't one just trim 45 Colt brass to hold the powder load desired and bypass the extra work of the filler?

The rim configuration of Schofield brass is different than 45 Colt brass. This stems from the fact that the Single Action Army used an ejector rod to punch out spent brass from the inside. Originally, the rims of 45 Colt were very small, because all they had to do was prevent the cartridge from being shoved into the chamber when the firing pin smacked the primer.

Schofield cases have always had a larger diameter rim than 45 Colt cases because the S&W Top Break revolvers such as the Schofield model and others had an extractor that pulled the spent rounds out by the rim. So the rim had to be sizeable to prevent the extractor from slipping over the rims of the cartridges.

This photo shows a bunch of old 45 Colt cartridges. Notice how tiny the rim is on most of them. The one all the way on the left is a Benet primed, copper cased round. Second from the right is a 45 Colt round for the Model 1909 double action Colt. Notice the rim is very wide for the extractor star of that revolver. All the way on right is a modern 45 Colt round.






Several 45 caliber cartridges. Left to right, 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 45 Cowboy Special, 45 Auto Rim, and 45 ACP. The Scofield round has always had a rim diameter of about .520, so an extractor will not slip off. The modern standard for 45 Colt rim diameter is .512.






The rear of the cylinder or a Schofield revolver showing the extractor






This is not a Schofield, it is a New Model Number Three. The extractor is halfway up, pulling the empties out. These are 44 Russian cartridges, not Schofield cartridges. But I can tell you it is a real pain if one of the rounds slips under the extractor. Unlike a modern revolver, there is a spring that pulls the extractor down against the camming action of the extractor. If a rim slips under the extractor, it can often involve losing some skin on the fingers pulling the extractor up to wiggle an errant round out. Trust me on this. That is why the cartridges for these revolvers had a larger rim than the 45 Colt.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Great photography.

 

[DocRock]

If one wishes sub 35 grs loads in 45 Colt, one need only drop a vegetable fiber wad over the powder charge one wishes to use. Available from multiple sources at nominal cost, they can be segmented to achieve one's desired charge and depth. No corn meal or COW required.

I am in the LPP camp for 45 Colt BP loads. And even that is more than is needed. I use LPP for 45-70 loads and in my 9.5x47R (sort of a German 38-50) with Black Powder. It ignites easily, and combusts to the best of its limited ability once ignited. See no reason for Magnum primers whatsoever burning a tube through the middle of the powder column, but I have not argument with those who prefer them.

As to the 45 Colt in rifles, while utterly anachronistic, it's a handy round in a rifle. Shoot the same load in my 24" Marlin 1894 as in my revolvers. And I thank Senor Marlin for his design every time I have to clean it up. John Moses Browning was a genius, but his lever guns were not designed with ease of cleaning BP fouling near the front of considerations. With the 45 Colt, full power BP loads are your friend in a rifle. They tend to expand your case mouth more effectively, though not as well as the 44-40, which helps with clean up. With 3Fffg powder and DJ's 200 grs Big Lube design bullet, I can get through a full match without having to clean but by about Stage 5, I'm appreciative of the targets not being very far away

There isn't much to loading BP 45 Colt. Use the amount of powder you want, compress it a little bit, and make sure the powder (and wad, if desired) column is in contact with the bullet base. Soft bullet, lots of lube. Loads of fun ensues

 

[rodwha]

The rim configuration of Schofield brass is different than 45 Colt brass. This stems from the fact that the Single Action Army used an ejector rod to punch out spent brass from the inside. Originally, the rims of 45 Colt were very small, because all they had to do was prevent the cartridge from being shoved into the chamber when the firing pin smacked the primer.

Schofield cases have always had a larger diameter rim than 45 Colt cases because the S&W Top Break revolvers such as the Schofield model and others had an extractor that pulled the spent rounds out by the rim. So the rim had to be sizeable to prevent the extractor from slipping over the rims of the cartridges.

This photo shows a bunch of old 45 Colt cartridges. Notice how tiny the rim is on most of them. The one all the way on the left is a Benet primed, copper cased round. Second from the right is a 45 Colt round for the Model 1909 double action Colt. Notice the rim is very wide for the extractor star of that revolver. All the way on right is a modern 45 Colt round.

View attachment 963504




Several 45 caliber cartridges. Left to right, 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 45 Cowboy Special, 45 Auto Rim, and 45 ACP. The Scofield round has always had a rim diameter of about .520, so an extractor will not slip off. The modern standard for 45 Colt rim diameter is .512.

View attachment 963505




The rear of the cylinder or a Schofield revolver showing the extractor

View attachment 963506




This is not a Schofield, it is a New Model Number Three. The extractor is halfway up, pulling the empties out. These are 44 Russian cartridges, not Schofield cartridges. But I can tell you it is a real pain if one of the rounds slips under the extractor. Unlike a modern revolver, there is a spring that pulls the extractor down against the camming action of the extractor. If a rim slips under the extractor, it can often involve losing some skin on the fingers pulling the extractor up to wiggle an errant round out. Trust me on this. That is why the cartridges for these revolvers had a larger rim than the 45 Colt.

View attachment 963507

In your picture showing the various .45 caliber bullets the Schofield’s bullet is barely sticking out of the case. Is this the typical 230 grn bullet and were they just seated deeper?

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

In your picture showing the various .45 caliber bullets the Schofield’s bullet is barely sticking out of the case. Is this the typical 230 grn bullet and were they just seated deeper?

Good Eye and an excellent question. That is the Big Lube 200 grain J/P 45-200 bullet that I designed a number of years ago. At the time, the only 45 caliber Big Lube bullet available was the 250 grain PRS bullet. I wanted a lighter bullet to shoot in my Schofield loads that I usually shoot in my Remington 1858 Cap & Ball revolvers with their 45 Colt conversion cylinders. So another CAS guy and I designed that bullet. It became one of the standard Big Lube designs that molds are available for.

This is a photo of all the bullets I use when I load my Black Powder cartridges. The first four on the left are all Big Lube bullets. Left to right they are the 180 grain bullet I use for 38-40, the 44 caliber 200 grain Mav-Dutchman I use for both 44 Russian and 44-40, my J/P 45-200 design, and the original 250 grain 45 caliber PRS bullet. The big 405 grain bullet is the one I use in my 45-70 loads. It is not a big lube design, it is a more traditional deign with lots of small lube grooves, and on the far right is one of my old Pan Lubed, Hard Cast 250 grain bullets that I used to load in 45 Colt before I discovered the Big Lube bullets. By the way, my original design of my J/P 45-200 bullet has been changed slightly over the years. They are not quite so flat these days. But that is the way they came out of the molds I had Lee Precision cut for me when I designed the bulelt.







Here is the ammo I load with these bullets, left to right: 44 Russian, 45 Schofield, 38-40, 44-40, 45 Colt, and 45-70.






For comparison, the two rounds on the left in this photo are both 45 Colts, the two on the right are both 45 Schofields. The two copper cased rounds are the original folded copper, Benet primed rounds , the two on the outside are my reloads.






This is what goes into my 45 Schofield rounds.






This photo is to illustrate some of the differences between the 1860 Colt Army and the 1858 Remington. The two bullets shown are the 45 Caliber, 250 grain PRS Big Lube and my 200 grain J/P 45-200. The lube has been stripped out of the lube grooves to illustrate what they look like when not filled up with lube.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

If one wishes sub 35 grs loads in 45 Colt, one need only drop a vegetable fiber wad over the powder charge one wishes to use. Available from multiple sources at nominal cost, they can be segmented to achieve one's desired charge and depth. No corn meal or COW required.

I am in the LPP camp for 45 Colt BP loads. And even that is more than is needed. I use LPP for 45-70 loads and in my 9.5x47R (sort of a German 38-50) with Black Powder. It ignites easily, and combusts to the best of its limited ability once ignited. See no reason for Magnum primers whatsoever burning a tube through the middle of the powder column, but I have not argument with those who prefer them.

As to the 45 Colt in rifles, while utterly anachronistic, it's a handy round in a rifle. Shoot the same load in my 24" Marlin 1894 as in my revolvers. And I thank Senor Marlin for his design every time I have to clean it up. John Moses Browning was a genius, but his lever guns were not designed with ease of cleaning BP fouling near the front of considerations. With the 45 Colt, full power BP loads are your friend in a rifle. They tend to expand your case mouth more effectively, though not as well as the 44-40, which helps with clean up. With 3Fffg powder and DJ's 200 grs Big Lube design bullet, I can get through a full match without having to clean but by about Stage 5, I'm appreciative of the targets not being very far away

There isn't much to loading BP 45 Colt. Use the amount of powder you want, compress it a little bit, and make sure the powder (and wad, if desired) column is in contact with the bullet base. Soft bullet, lots of lube. Loads of fun ensues

That's right, you can stack wads, or use thick wads to adjust seating depth. Easy peasy. If I compress a load a bit more than intended, happens sometimes, I just add an extra wad. Does not effect velocity/pressure/whatever as far as I can tell.

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

I don't have a J/P big lube mold but I shoot a bunch of them I get from springfield slim and they do look a bit different than those in Driftwoods picture. They are still pretty stubby though. They shoot great in my 45colt revolvers over 28 grains of 2f in Schofield brass.

 

[Blackpowderwarrior]

Howdy

First of all, please refrain from using the term holy black. I first saw that term on the SASS Wire years ago, and I have always thought it was silly. Black Powder is just a very old form of propellant, there is nothing holy about it.

Second, I generally shoot my Black Powder 45 Colt cartridges in cartridge revolvers. The only Cap & Ball revolvers I have with conversion cylinders are Remington 1858s with 45 Colt conversion cylinders. I generally shoot 45 Schofield ammunition in those revolvers because the grip shape of the Remington is different than the grip shape of a Colt Single Action Army or its replicas. The different shape of the grip on the Remington makes the recoil of a full house BP 45 Colt load uncomfortable.

Lastly, I am not a hunter, so I have no comment on what may or may not be acceptable ammunition for any particular animal.

OK, having said all that, I have been loading Black Powder in cartridges for about 20 years now. The cartridges I load with Black Powder are 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian, and 38-40. I also load 45-70 with Black Powder for my Trapdoor Springfield and Sharps rifles.

45 Colt. I will pretty much echo what MEHavey said.

"1. Full case (+) of Black.
2. Bullet has to have wide grease groove
3. Bullet need to be SOFT... pure lead isn't too soft
3. You need to use very soft BP lube...not more modern harder lubes

Expect to have to clean the face of the cylinder every loadout."

The only thing I will disagree with is having to clean the cylinder frequently. Any revolver with a decent cylinder bushing standing proud of the cylinder face will not need the cylinder cleaned frequently if enough soft BP compatible bullet lube is used on the bullet. Since the 1860 C&B Colt has no bushing on the front of the cylinder, you may need to wipe off the front face of the cylinder more often than with a revolver that has a bushing on the front of the cylinder.

As can be seen in this photo, both the Colt 1860 Army cylinder on the left and the Remington 1858 cylinder on the right lack a bushing on the front face of the cylinder. This allows fouling expelled from the barrel/cylinder gap to be blasted directly onto the cylinder pin of the Remington or the cylinder arbor of the Colt. That is the main cause of binding when shooting Black Powder, fouling blasted onto the cylinder pin. The Colt (actually a Pietta) 1860 Army cylinder arbor has a helical groove cut along the arbor which creates clearance for fouling to accumulate. This and the slightly larger diameter of the Colt cylinder arbor makes the Colt slightly better at resisting the cylinder binding when shooting Black Powder. When I fire BP cartridges out of the Remington with its lack of a bushing and narrower pin, I truly have to wipe off the cylinder face after every cylinder full of ammo, or the cylinder will start to bind.

View attachment 962525




Left to right, these cylinders are from an Uberti Cattleman, a Ruger 'original model' Vaquero, and a 2nd Gen Colt Single Action Army. The bushing on the front face of each cylinder shields the underlying cylinder pin from fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap. With Black Powder ammunition using bullets with plenty of soft, BP compatible bullet lube, I can shoot these revolvers all day and not have to stop to wipe off the cylinders.

View attachment 962526




This is a photo of what goes into my Black Powder 45 Colt ammunition. I use standard Large Pistol primers in my Black Powder 45 Colt cartridges. The bullet is the Big Lube 250 grain PRS bullet already referred to by another poster. I have stripped the lube out of the bullet on the left to illustrate how large the lube groove is. My usual load for 45 Colt is about 33.5 grains of Schuetzen FFg. However, you need to realize that different brands of Black Powder weigh different amounts. The best advice I can give you is the correct amount of powder in any Black Powder cartridge will be compressed by 1/16" - 1/8" when the bullet is seated. 33.5 grains of Schuetzen FFg does that for me with the Big Lube PRS bullet. Slightly different grain weights of different brands of powder will do the same. The reason the 2.2CC Lee dipper is in the photo is because that dipper provides the correct volume of powder with that particular bullet in a 45 Colt case.

View attachment 962527




When using a dipper like this, pour about 1/2 pound of powder into a ceramic cup and use the dipper like an ice cream scoop. Scoop it through the powder with a consistent motion, and use a piece of card stock to scrape off the excess. Using this technique you will consistently dip the correct amount of powder for this bullet in a 45 Colt cartridge.

View attachment 962528




This photo shows a 45 Colt round on the left and a 44-40 round on the right. The Big Lube 250 grain PRS bullet is pictured with the 45 Colt round, the Big Lube Mav-Dutchman bullet is pictured with the 44-40 round. I have removed the lube from one of each bullet, demonstrating how much lube each bullet carries. This is the secret to keeping a Black Powder revolver functioning for a long time without binding, lots of soft BP compatible lube in the lube groove. The soft lube keeps the fouling soft, preventing it from binding the face of a revolver cylinder, and preventing hard fouling from building up in the bore which can destroy accuracy and is difficult to remove.

View attachment 962529




I used to cast my own bullets, but the lead content in my blood is too high now, so I buy all my Big Lube BP bullets from Whyte Leatherworks these days.

http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/BigLube.html

When I was casting my own bullets I was using SPG lube. Mark uses his own home made bullet lube which works just as well as SPG.

Any questions?


View attachment 962530

Howdy

First of all, please refrain from using the term holy black. I first saw that term on the SASS Wire years ago, and I have always thought it was silly. Black Powder is just a very old form of propellant, there is nothing holy about it.

Second, I generally shoot my Black Powder 45 Colt cartridges in cartridge revolvers. The only Cap & Ball revolvers I have with conversion cylinders are Remington 1858s with 45 Colt conversion cylinders. I generally shoot 45 Schofield ammunition in those revolvers because the grip shape of the Remington is different than the grip shape of a Colt Single Action Army or its replicas. The different shape of the grip on the Remington makes the recoil of a full house BP 45 Colt load uncomfortable.

Lastly, I am not a hunter, so I have no comment on what may or may not be acceptable ammunition for any particular animal.

OK, having said all that, I have been loading Black Powder in cartridges for about 20 years now. The cartridges I load with Black Powder are 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian, and 38-40. I also load 45-70 with Black Powder for my Trapdoor Springfield and Sharps rifles.

45 Colt. I will pretty much echo what MEHavey said.

"1. Full case (+) of Black.
2. Bullet has to have wide grease groove
3. Bullet need to be SOFT... pure lead isn't too soft
3. You need to use very soft BP lube...not more modern harder lubes

Expect to have to clean the face of the cylinder every loadout."

The only thing I will disagree with is having to clean the cylinder frequently. Any revolver with a decent cylinder bushing standing proud of the cylinder face will not need the cylinder cleaned frequently if enough soft BP compatible bullet lube is used on the bullet. Since the 1860 C&B Colt has no bushing on the front of the cylinder, you may need to wipe off the front face of the cylinder more often than with a revolver that has a bushing on the front of the cylinder.

As can be seen in this photo, both the Colt 1860 Army cylinder on the left and the Remington 1858 cylinder on the right lack a bushing on the front face of the cylinder. This allows fouling expelled from the barrel/cylinder gap to be blasted directly onto the cylinder pin of the Remington or the cylinder arbor of the Colt. That is the main cause of binding when shooting Black Powder, fouling blasted onto the cylinder pin. The Colt (actually a Pietta) 1860 Army cylinder arbor has a helical groove cut along the arbor which creates clearance for fouling to accumulate. This and the slightly larger diameter of the Colt cylinder arbor makes the Colt slightly better at resisting the cylinder binding when shooting Black Powder. When I fire BP cartridges out of the Remington with its lack of a bushing and narrower pin, I truly have to wipe off the cylinder face after every cylinder full of ammo, or the cylinder will start to bind.

View attachment 962525




Left to right, these cylinders are from an Uberti Cattleman, a Ruger 'original model' Vaquero, and a 2nd Gen Colt Single Action Army. The bushing on the front face of each cylinder shields the underlying cylinder pin from fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap. With Black Powder ammunition using bullets with plenty of soft, BP compatible bullet lube, I can shoot these revolvers all day and not have to stop to wipe off the cylinders.

View attachment 962526




This is a photo of what goes into my Black Powder 45 Colt ammunition. I use standard Large Pistol primers in my Black Powder 45 Colt cartridges. The bullet is the Big Lube 250 grain PRS bullet already referred to by another poster. I have stripped the lube out of the bullet on the left to illustrate how large the lube groove is. My usual load for 45 Colt is about 33.5 grains of Schuetzen FFg. However, you need to realize that different brands of Black Powder weigh different amounts. The best advice I can give you is the correct amount of powder in any Black Powder cartridge will be compressed by 1/16" - 1/8" when the bullet is seated. 33.5 grains of Schuetzen FFg does that for me with the Big Lube PRS bullet. Slightly different grain weights of different brands of powder will do the same. The reason the 2.2CC Lee dipper is in the photo is because that dipper provides the correct volume of powder with that particular bullet in a 45 Colt case.

View attachment 962527




When using a dipper like this, pour about 1/2 pound of powder into a ceramic cup and use the dipper like an ice cream scoop. Scoop it through the powder with a consistent motion, and use a piece of card stock to scrape off the excess. Using this technique you will consistently dip the correct amount of powder for this bullet in a 45 Colt cartridge.

View attachment 962528




This photo shows a 45 Colt round on the left and a 44-40 round on the right. The Big Lube 250 grain PRS bullet is pictured with the 45 Colt round, the Big Lube Mav-Dutchman bullet is pictured with the 44-40 round. I have removed the lube from one of each bullet, demonstrating how much lube each bullet carries. This is the secret to keeping a Black Powder revolver functioning for a long time without binding, lots of soft BP compatible lube in the lube groove. The soft lube keeps the fouling soft, preventing it from binding the face of a revolver cylinder, and preventing hard fouling from building up in the bore which can destroy accuracy and is difficult to remove.

View attachment 962529




I used to cast my own bullets, but the lead content in my blood is too high now, so I buy all my Big Lube BP bullets from Whyte Leatherworks these days.

http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/BigLube.html

When I was casting my own bullets I was using SPG lube. Mark uses his own home made bullet lube which works just as well as SPG.

Any questions?


View attachment 962530

I contacted mark and have a order in with him. Thanks for the information Driftwood i banged out around 100 rounds of 45 colt with 38 grains BP and a 250 rnfp bullet. Pretty darn mpressive load

 

[Dave Markowitz]

to recreate the proper full power black powder loads, one needs to find old style balloon cases that had a higher capacity.

View attachment 962962

Yes and no.

In order to get a full 40 grains of BP into the case, you need the old balloon head cases.

However, to duplicate the original ballistics of .44 WCF, you can load 2.2cc (~35 grains) of Swiss 3Fg. That powder charge will propel a 219 grain bullet cast from an Accurate Molds 43-215C mold at over 1,300 FPS from my Cimarron 1873 Sporting Rifle, as I measured with a chronograph. Apparently, the high quality of the Swiss powder combined with the reduced volume of Starline brass results in performance equivalent to the original full BP load.

FWIW, I use the same basic technique as Driftwood Johnson when loading my .44-40s, except for using a different bullet.

I also load some reduced BP loads, roughly equivalent to .44 Henry Flat. These have 30 grains of 3Fg powder, a 1/8" thick nitro card to ensure there's no air space, and the same 43-215C bullet. These are primarily for use in my Uberti Bisley because they kick less than full house loads, or in my 1860 Henry, just to give ballistics closer to the original rimfire round the Henry used in the 19th Century.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

It is absolutely easy to get 40 grains of 3f in a modern case. Period.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

It is absolutely easy to get 40 grains of 3f in a modern case. Period.

So please share how you do so.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I pour 40 grains of 3fg into the case, either by weight or volume. I start by weight, then make a volume measure to throw that weight. From that point on, I use only the measure. Then I add a thin fiber wad, and compress the powder until the bullet has enough space to seat against the wad and powder. Then seat the bullet. Then crimp.

Compressing the powder, and seating the bullet are two different steps. Compressing the powder with the bullet will result in a very deformed bullet, and possibly not being to seat the bullet all the way. I think this is where many are led to believe that you "can't" get 40 grains into a modern case. Or "need" a balloon head case to do so.

Loading black powder cartridges, and smokeless cartridges, are two different animals. I think that is where the confusion lies. With smokeless, add powder, seat bullet...done. With black, add powder, compress powder to specific amount or measurement, then seat bullet.

With black you CAN just seat the bullet to where it barely compresses the powder, or just touches it, without leaving any air-space. However, a compressed load will be much cleaner burning. On of course, a compressed load of 40 grains will be a very powerful load, if that is what one wants.

 

[MEHavey]

You can compress BP to the point that it's effectively a monolithic "pellet"
https://www.buffaloarms.com/reloading-supplies-accessories/powder-compression-plugs
Most of the time w/ big BPCRs it's only 1/8"- 1/5", though, for best accuracy

 

[Jim Watson]

Mike Venturino once wrote that he was the only one in his acquaintance who used a compression die on .44-40. He also said he was the only one in his acquaintance who did not have to clean his basepin or squirt moose milk on it during a CAS match.


I load Swiss 1 1/2 in .38-55 and .40-65, die compressed only about the thickness of the card wad.
I once compressed Goex FFFg a quarter inch looking for more velocity in the .38-55 for better metallic silhouette knockdown. I got the velocity but accuracy fell off.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Mike Venturino once wrote that he was the only one in his acquaintance who used a compression die on .44-40. He also said he was the only one in his acquaintance who did not have to clean his basepin or squirt moose milk on it during a CAS match.

I have read almost everything Mike Venturino wrote over the years, in fact I used his books as my primers when I first started loading Black Powder in cartridges. I must say I have never come across that particular comment. I just dug out three of his books, Shooting Sixguns of the Old West, Shooting Colt Single Actions, and Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West. I went to the 44-40 section in each book and did not see anything about using a compression die and not having to clean his basepin.

Not saying he did not say it in a publication somewhere, just saying I did not come across it in those three books.

More to the point, the three books I refer to were all published in 1995, 1997, and 1999. The Big Lube bullets did not exist yet at that time, or if they did they were not commonly being used. I can honestly say that with Big Lube bullets, with their huge lube grooves, I can shoot a 2 day CAS match, consisting of five stages per day, without experiencing any binding at all with my revolvers, and I do not clean them at the end of the first day, they do not get cleaned until the end of the second day.

Just saying there is more than one way to skin a cat. Mike also suggests using a drop tube and magnum primers, neither of which I do when loading 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian, or 38-40 with Black Powder.

 

[Dave T]

40g of FFFg in a modern case is certainly doable with a compression die but is not a duplication of the original full power BP load for the 45 Colt. It will result in velocities at or exceeding (depending on barrel length) 1000 fps. The original load was 40g of FFg in a balloon head case (the military used folded copper cases at first) behind a 255g bullet. Velocity from the cavalry's 7-1/2" SAA was 910 fps. By 1874 the Ordnance Dept had already reduced the load to 30g FFg behind a 250g bullet. The heavier loads remained available to civilians.

Dave

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Original loads were compressed. Perhaps not/probably not as compressed as mine. My 40 grain loads, in modern cases, run around 940fps in a 5.5" barrel. I saw a youtube video (so it HAS to be true) where they were just cracking 1000fps with a 7.5" barrel, with 40 grains in modern cases. So yes, one probably can exceed original velocities a bit. I think that's a good thing, as picking up 50fps or so with black powder certainly is not stressing things.

Yep, Elmer called, or referred to the Remington 40 grain black powder load as the "civilian load". He said it would shoot right through a large bull's skull. !!!

At any rate, for sure not a "duplication", and my purpose was never to duplicate the original load, just to get 40 grains in there!

My only argument is with those who say you "can't" get 40 grains in the case, under a 250 or 255 grain bullet, and that you "need" the balloon head case to do it. I think we agree that it's "doable". And that's why I do it.

On the other hand, sometimes just because you can do something, does not mean you should do something. But for me, and my El Patron, 40 grains is accurate and powerful, and I'd rather push the power envelope with black powder, rather than stuffing the case with Unique.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I have read almost everything Mike Venturino wrote over the years, in fact I used his books as my primers when I first started loading Black Powder in cartridges. I must say I have never come across that particular comment. I just dug out three of his books, Shooting Sixguns of the Old West, Shooting Colt Single Actions, and Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West. I went to the 44-40 section in each book and did not see anything about using a compression die and not having to clean his basepin.

Not saying he did not say it in a publication somewhere, just saying I did not come across it in those three books.

More to the point, the three books I refer to were all published in 1995, 1997, and 1999. The Big Lube bullets did not exist yet at that time, or if they did they were not commonly being used. I can honestly say that with Big Lube bullets, with their huge lube grooves, I can shoot a 2 day CAS match, consisting of five stages per day, without experiencing any binding at all with my revolvers, and I do not clean them at the end of the first day, they do not get cleaned until the end of the second day.

Just saying there is more than one way to skin a cat. Mike also suggests using a drop tube and magnum primers, neither of which I do when loading 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian, or 38-40 with Black Powder.

Mike V used to write quite extensively for the magazines, most likely that's where it be.