London bomber may have been a recently released Gitmo detainee!

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Beethoven

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If this turns out to be true......boy.....thank your local leftist for this!!!



Source: http://www.homelandsecurityus.com/


REPORT: One UK Bomber Was Recent GITMO Release

7 July 2005; 12:54 ET: Preliminary reports from a source inside the Pentagon indicate that one of the operatives involved in this morning's bombings in London was recently released from the prison at Guantanamo.

UPDATED 10:35 PM ET: A clarification was made by the source providing this information, noting that "one of the bombers who is believed to be involved in this attack was recently released from the prison at Guantanamo, Cuba." The source did not elaborate about how the suspect was reportedly identified so early, although suggested he was onboard bus 30 that exploded outside of the British Medical Association at 9:47 local time. We are continuing our investigation.
 
Perhaps THIS will silence the critics about the necessity of Gitmo, but they'll probably blame the Bush admin and military instead.
 
Blame leftists? Did we get a Democrat controlled whitehouse/senate when I wasnt looking?
 
Gitmo

I hesitate to respond to this because any questioning of the benefits of Gitmo will cause me to be labeled as a 'leftist' or whatever else comes to mind.

Whether he is from Gitmo or not, the person is a terrorist who bombs buses and subways.

But, Gitmo is a mistake. It is harming the USA. I have read that from ex-military, so it is not just a left winger saying it to discredit the USA. It violates everything our country claims to stand for, fair trial, etc.

http://www.fff.org/comment/com0507b.asp

Gitmo Threatens Us All
by Jacob G. Hornberger, July 6, 2005

It might be safe to say that Americans who have been supporting or pooh-poohing the torture, mistreatment, and sex abuse of detainees at the Pentagon’s infamous detention facility at Guantanamo Bay have been doing so because the detainees have been foreigners. What those Americans might not realize is that “Gitmo” is for Americans too, especially if the president and the Pentagon are able to convince the federal courts to adopt their “unlawful-combatant” theory in the “war on terrorism.”

Think about it: As a practical matter, is there any difference between a foreign terrorist and an American terrorist (e.g., Yaser Hamdi and Jose Padilla)? In fact, I’d be willing to bet that the president and the Pentagon would consider the American terrorist even worse than the foreign-born terrorist, given that the former has betrayed his own country.

Let’s analyze the power that the president assumed on 9/11. As a result of that attack, President Bush declared a “global war on terrorism” (or “GWOT,” as Washington bureaucrats term it) and suggested that such a war was akin to a real war, such as World War II. However, he sent the word down the military ranks that prisoners in the GWOT — unlike prisoners of war in World War II — would not be entitled to the protections of the Geneva Convention because they were “unlawful combatants,” presumably because they don’t wear uniforms and they attack civilian targets.

What other inference could U.S. soldiers troops have drawn from the president’s message except “take off the gloves”? Obviously, no officer — from general to lieutenant — is going to be stupid enough to issue an order to enlisted personnel that says, “What the president meant is that you are now authorized to torture, murder, mistreat, and sexually abuse the terrorists here at Gitmo, and, as your superior officer, I will take responsibility for your actions.”

Instead, here’s how the military system works: First, make certain the interrogators at the bottom receive the “Geneva Convention doesn’t apply” message. But just in case things go wrong and people find out, CYA by not issuing any specific orders, thereby preserving your deniability, innocence, and shock over any “revelations.” Second, whatever happens, protect the president, who will promote and reward those who are loyal, not only those within the military chain of command but also those legal advisors who gave him cover with appropriate legal opinions.

As our Founding Fathers understood so well — and as I detailed in my three-part series “Obedience to Orders” — one of the major drawbacks to a standing army is the propensity of professional officers to blindly obey orders or, in the absence of specific orders, to please their superiors, especially given that promotion and career advancement depend on favorable approval reports from their superiors. After all, does anyone honestly believe that the military officers stationed at Guantanamo Bay were simply sunbathing when enlisted personnel were torturing, mistreating, and sexually abusing detainees under their noses? Moreover, whatever happened to the military concept of holding officers responsible for the wrongful actions of their troops?

So what does all this have to do with American citizens? It’s very simple: In the GWOT, American terrorists are subject to the same treatment as foreign terrorists, including being sent to Guantanamo Bay. And there is little doubt that U.S. military personnel would be more than willing to treat an American terrorist at Gitmo the same way he treats a foreign terrorist, if not worse, especially if he believes that such treatment meets with the approval of his superiors. After all, don’t forget how they treated U.S. citizen John Walker Lindh, the “American Taliban.”

“But the Pentagon isn’t sending Americans to Gitmo, only foreigners.” That’s true but that’s only a political decision — one that can easily be rescinded, especially if the president and the Pentagon are able to achieve their goal of total independence at Gitmo — that is, no federal court interference with their “wartime” operations.

“But Gitmo would be limited only to genuine American terrorists.” Ah, but keep in mind an important question here: Who determines whether a particular American is a terrorist in the GWOT?

Under the Constitution, a jury makes the determination, both for foreigners and for Americans accused of terrorism. But under the “wartime” powers assumed by the President and the Pentagon, they make the determination. Under their theory, their decision is final and conclusive. No trial, or at best some kangaroo military tribunal. No Constitution. No Bill of Rights (whose protections expressly extend to all persons — that is, both Americans and foreigners accused of crimes by the federal government). No habeas corpus. No federal-court interference. No judicial review.

If the Supreme Court ultimately rules in favor of the president’s and Pentagon’s “GWOT unlawful-combatant” theory, any American — I repeat: any American (including dissidents and critics) — who is labeled a “terrorist” will be subject to be whisked away to Gitmo to receive “unlawful-combatant” treatment. And there will be nothing — I repeat: nothing — that he or his family or his friends could do about it.

And make no mistake about it: U.S. military personnel, from the Pentagon on down, will continue to disregard the Geneva Convention and the Constitution with respect to their treatment of prisoners at Gitmo, even if such prisoners are Americans, if they believe that by doing so they are either following orders or pleasing their commander-in-chief or their superior officers.

Therefore, Americans might want to think twice before cheering the Pentagon’s mistreatment of foreign detainees at Gitmo. They might well be cheering the torture, mistreatment, and sex abuse of their countrymen and perhaps even themselves.

Jacob Hornberger is founder and president of The Future of Freedom Foundation. Send him email.

Go to the guy's web site and read who this guy is before you scream lefties or commies. He was elected by his classmates to give the valedictory address at VMI in 1972.

http://www.fff.org/comment/com0303u.asp
 
I don't care. If this is true, the man should have been put on trial if he'd done something illegal. Either here or in the UK. Holding people without trial because you think they might do something is a hallmark of a tyrant state. I would rather see every man, woman, child and dog in the US slaughtered than see us cow-tow to a federal government that can hold individuals without trial without any judicial oversight or review.
 
Cosmoline said:
Holding people without trial because you think they might do something is a hallmark of a tyrant state.

You might want to put some qualifiers on that statement, as I seem to recall a few occasions where "Holding people without trial because you think they might do something" was common practice:

US Civil War
Union & Rebel gov't held captured soldiers of their enemies for the duration. Were both Union & Confederacy tryant states?

WWI
Axis & Allies also held enemy POWs for the duration. Some of the states could be easily described as tyrannies (Russia, Turkey, maybe Germany, maybe A-H Empire). But how about, say, Britain & France? The Brits still had the RKBA and more freedoms than they do today. How 'bout the USA?

WWII
Similar situation to WWI, with no question about Germany & Japan being tyrannical states. Heck the USA even btought POWs back over the Atlantic to Texas, where they worked on local farms & officers were given liberty to go to town on their own. We were so tyrannical that some of the German POWs elected to stay here in the US after the war.
 
Whatever good Gitmo's detention facility may have been has run its course. If they haven't talked by now, forget it. And, yes, it has become fuel for the Anti-American fire, calling for more to die in the name of Allah in the fight against the anti-Islamic Americans.

By the way, I personally hope that whoever did these bombings gets a personal demonstration of the SAS marksmanship training.
 
Regarding the original post... This report just does not look credible. That Web site is hardly a "research" agency. Perhaps when Keith Idema gets out of an Afghan prison, he can go work for them. :rolleyes:
 
--As far as POW's during the Civil War, they were held without the benefit of many rules of war we take for granted. Ask the folks at Andersonville or the many Union concentration camps. Lincoln did suspend habeus corpus and basically ignored the rule of law, which puts him high on the list of tyrant rulers in my book.

-- During WWII we held POW's under the strict rules of the Geneva Convention. The US at least treated the Axis prisoners from the Eruopean theater very well as you point out. The difference is the people at GITMO are not POW's. They are not fighting for any state, and the rules of war cannot apply to them. This means they're CIVILIANS and must be treated as such. They must be released unless charges can be brought and proven in a court of law against them.
 
The Geneva convention only covers enemy combatants... These guys are war criminals and as such are NOT covered... Go look it up... No uniform, no nation sponsoring them (apparantly)...

http://www.ccc.nps.navy.mil/si/aug02/law.asp


Good read on illegal combatants.. seems to look at both sides of the issue. I don't completely agree with his conclusions, but it's worth reading and thinking about...
 
But, Gitmo is a mistake. It is harming the USA.
:eek:

Silly, really, America is now and will always be hated, I seen it in the 60's
while in the military and it holds true today, if your on top(the boss) your
disliked, if you have money, it's called envy. If the right people have there way we will be on bottom, or at the very least take one heck of a hit
someday. The choice is yours protect your home, dont give it away
because you have more. Be fair, be kind, but carry a big stick.
 
Jacob G. Hornberger

What a great American, lying about and demonizing our military folks for the sake of scoring a few cheap political points for his joke of a "Libertarian" party.

:fire:

"some kangaroo military tribunal", indeed. This guy is really a veteran?

Unlawful combatants were executed immediately during WW2. Non-uniformed combatants place civilians in additional peril. To a real soldier, who wears a uniform to protect civilians at the risk of his own life, they are the very epitomy of low-file scum.

The "torture" at Gitmo consists of sleep-deprivation, harsh language and raised voices, extreme but not dangerous temperatures, scantily-clad but domineering female interrogators, and light shoving and chest poking with a finger. Hell, it sounds like a wild weekend in Paris to me. There are NO beatings, electrocutions, or sexual abuse. They are trained to claim abuse, it's in their little terrorist manuals under the "Use their liberal societies' moral qualms and bleeding hearts against them" chapter.

Mind you, these interrogations are not an everyday occurance, either. Mostly they are in their cells, well-fed and clothed, provided with Korans, beads, oils, and arrows pointing to Mecca, called to prayer over the loudspeakers, and generally engaged in trying to gouge out the eyes, break the fingers, and fling excrement on their guards (while they are not praying, that is).

If the GWOT ends up like Vietnam it will be for the exact same reason: the fifth column here at home and the chicken littles who buy their snake oil.
 
here is another one for you to rant about

What, another ex-military who understands what is going on? Can it really be?

You can write to Charley and tell him he is a traitor, ok?

Charley Reese [send him mail] has been a journalist for 49 years, reporting on everything from sports to politics. From 1969 to 1971, he worked as a campaign staffer for gubernatorial, senatorial and congressional races in several states. He was an editor, assistant to the publisher, and columnist for the Orlando Sentinel from 1971 to 2001. He now writes a syndicated column which is carried on LewRockwell.com. Reese served two years active duty in the U.S. Army as a tank gunner. Write to Charley Reese at P.O. Box 2446, Orlando, FL 32802.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/reese/reese200.html

American Gulag
by Charley Reese

In case you haven't noticed it, the Bush administration's standard response to any criticism is to attack the critic. Ad hominem attacks are designed, of course, to avoid the subject of the criticism. Such a tactic greatly appeals to armchair patriots with petrified brains.

The fact is, the Bush administration has created a gulag, as Amnesty International recently charged. Certainly it is not on the scale of Stalin's, but a series of prisons in Cuba, Iraq, Afghanistan and in other, hidden places where people are held indefinitely without charges and without access to even humanitarian organizations can be fairly called gulags.

This corruption of American moral standards begins, as most corrupt practices do, with an abuse of language. The phrase "enemy combatant" means simply a person who is fighting you. But, if you capture that person, he is no longer an enemy combatant. He is a prisoner of war.

But the Bush administration, not wishing to be bound by international law, claims that "enemy combatant" is a new classification. It means (to the Bush administration) a person who can be put in prison without charges for an indefinite period of time. This sleazy practice causes us far more damage than any benefit Bush imagines can be derived from it.

Look, we have laws against terrorism. If there are prisoners in Guantanamo who are guilty of terrorism, charge them, bring them to trial, convict them and put them away. If they are just prisoners of war, then obey the Geneva Conventions. I fail to see how this could possibly threaten our national security.

Even though Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, whose credibility is close to zero, says the people in Guantanamo are very, very bad and dangerous people, the fact is that in Afghanistan, we offered our warlord allies a bounty for any Taliban or al-Qaida guy who was turned over to us. Well, grow up, folks. That created a financial incentive for any gunman short on cash to snatch some poor soul off the street and sell him to the Americans. After all, how would we know if he was Taliban or al-Qaida? We wouldn't.

The CIA did the same thing in Vietnam. A friend of mine who ran a group of Nung mercenaries was authorized to pay them $5 for every Viet Cong head they brought in. Naturally, they always returned with several sacks full of Vietnamese heads, but were they Viet Cong or just innocent Vietnamese? No way to tell. When it comes to trying to play the imperialist game, we always seem to have more money than brains.

Another friend of mine from El Salvador used to laugh when we were financing that war against guerrillas. "My God, there are only 7,000 of them," he said with a smile, "and as long as you are paying us a million dollars a day to fight them, we can't afford to kill them."

But suppose some of the guys at Guantanamo really are very bad people. Well, try 'em, convict 'em and put them in an American prison. I'll bet our home-grown very bad people are more than a match for any al-Qaida or Taliban thug. You want to see some scary, dangerous people? Visit an American prison.

It should be obvious that we will never win the war on terrorism without winning the hearts and minds of the people, to use two clichés in one sentence. Obviously, by flouting international law and human-rights standards, we are going to lose the public-relations battle. Losing this battle will result in more real battle deaths for our troops overseas.

Our president, God bless him, seems to be under the delusion that whatever he says is so. In other words, he seems to believe he can alter reality with words. Well, that might work with the lap-dog press corps in Washington, but the rest of the world looks at facts, and the facts, in this case, are not on our side.

We are abusing human rights and international law at Guantanamo and in other hidden prisons, and we should stop it immediately. It is in our own self-interest to do so.


June 11, 2005
 
I wouldn't call him a traitor, just a fool.

A "gulag", eh? Don't you think that's a little demeaning to the millions who died in the real gulags? Where starvation and forced labor until death were the standard practices, where discipline consisted of a rifle butt to the head instead of a few days in solitary?

I take that back, he is a traitor. Military service is no excuse for comparing America to the Soviets and the Nazis. Benedict Arnold was a war hero, too.
 
Those detained in Gitmo are not simple criminals who have commited crimes, like typical US prisoners. They are prisoners captured in battles, fighting US troops. They are equivalent of prisoners of war. Prisoners of war are held during times of war. If they have been captured, fighting US troops, I have no problem holding them without a "trial". No trial is needed. These are not simple "criminals" caught robbing some 7-11. If they were fighting our troops and are captured, they should be held by the military, period not brought to our civil courts and tried.

Those yelling for trials, thinking these are just like US criminals, are totally off base.
 
Oh, and trying foreign jihadists in a civil court, aside from the fact that they don't have any such privilege during wartime, is a great way to blow the cover of all of our invaluable and irreplaceable undercover operatives when they come to testify (as they do before the military tribunals) in public. Good thinking there.
 
You boys are living in the past - all this talk about trials, warrants, tyrants, Bill of Rights, etc. is the old America. Wake up and stop living in the past. This is the new America and none of that old stuff is needed, George Bush will take care of us.
 
With this post, I will stop.

For me, this is the issue.

When Hackworth asks in his article, Was this war necessary?, just fill in the words, Is Gitmo necessary? It is the same issue, the right to dissent without being accused of being a traitor, a leftist, or whatever else.

And if you want to call David Hackworth a traitor or a fool, well, so be it.

http://www.hackworth.com/archive.html

You can find lots of good reading at that site.

http://www.sftt.us/cgi-bin/csNews/c...mand=viewone&op=t&id=21&rnd=943.2267413683611

By David H. Hackworth

My wife and I just returned from an eye-opening, two-week trip to Ireland, a lush island where everyone we encountered seems to love Yankee Doodle Dandies. You can still count on being welcomed by friendly faces and heart-warming hospitality, probably because Americans provided a safe harbor and shiploads of food during the 19th-century famines and have been there for these long-oppressed, freedom-loving people ever since.

But the folks we yarned with aren't keen on our government’s recent behavior – and it’s not about Bill Clinton’s Irish background as opposed to George Bush’s English genes. Our aggressive new “Pre-emptive First Strike” stance worries them as much as it does other “old” Europeans. The most frequent question we encountered – I kid you not – was “Do you think we'll be invaded next?”

My response: “North Korea and Iran lead the administration’s termination list. Relax. Ireland’s safe as long as it continues to export Guinness beer.”

But in Ireland, Bush is clearly out and those other Texans, the Dixie Chicks – who are big-time box office overseas – are in.

Like the Dixie Chicks, the Irish people aren’t afraid to sound off. Forever mindful of their hard fight for liberty, they don’t take freedom of speech for granted. And their stand-up-and-be-counted electronic media regularly – and righteously – go for their politicians’ jugular veins with a vengeance seldom seen in the USA these days. I suspect the reason for the difference is Corporate America’s control over our airways; the big guys are now shamelessly riding the same corrupting pork train as most Washington-based power players.

But what a price the Dixie Chicks have paid here in the USA for sounding off. They took the same terrible hit as many others for daring to ask how real a threat Iraq’s much-hyped Weapons of Mass Destruction posed and if it was smart to place our sons and daughters at risk in a fight that didn’t truly involve our national security.

It seems that in America it’s unpatriotic to ask, “Was this war necessary?” Today, a highly organized right-wing juggernaut is quick to attack anyone who protests Washington’s war plans, calling these truth-seekers un-American and traitorous.

Many of us have chosen to shut up and look the other way out of dread of being accused of not supporting our country and our troops. Anyone expressing the slightest dissent is warned: “It's our way or the highway. If you don't like where the country’s going, then move to Germany or France.”

Doubting Americans seem too cowed to sound off and question these self-proclaimed patriots – the majority of whom dodged combat service during past conflicts as diligently as most of us are avoiding Hong Kong and Toronto today.

In spite of their residence in a very hot place, demagogue Joe McCarthy and the rabid members of his Committee on Un-American Activities – which did such appalling damage to our country’s integrity in the 1950s – must be gloating over the Hawks Club following in their footsteps, wrapped as they were in the American flag.

Sadly, too many of us seem to have bought into the same sort of fear and base propaganda as the good people of Germany when Hitler was promoting his Sieg Heils in the mid-1930s: My country, right or wrong, my country.

Beginning with much of the media, we seem to have forgotten Mark Twain's sage comment: “Loyalty to the country always, loyalty to the government when it deserves it.”

Bet your boots that more than 200,000 American troops now stuck in the Middle Eastern deserts – many living in primitive conditions that we don’t tolerate for farm animals, dodging bullets that cut into American flesh almost daily – surely would appreciate more Americans standing tall and asking the billion-dollar question: Was the Iraq War critical to our country’s national interest, and is the occupation worth the bloody price our grunts continue to pay?

We need to remember that dissent is what America is all about. Wise men long ago guaranteed our freedom to attack city hall by the magic documents that a bunch of dedicated people have fought McCarthy-type gangs time and again over the years to keep alive: the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.


Http://www.hackworth.com is the address of David Hackworth's home page. Sign in for the free weekly Defending America column at his Web site. Send mail to P.O. Box 11179, Greenwich, CT 06831. His newest book is “Steel My Soldiers’ Hearts.”

© 2003 David H. Hackworth.
 
Hackworth's essay is fine with me. It's okay to say "was this necessary?" "is it worth it?".

It's not okay, in my book, to paint our soldiers as war criminals. Certainly some of them are, there's always a psycho or ten in any group of 200,000 people. But as Gulag guards? As institutionalized torturers and rapists after they just did away with a regime of real torturers and rapists at the cost their own lives and those of their buddies?

Hackworth would never do that...

And it makes me weep that so many of us are willing to believe it of our own fellows, or pretend to, in some kind of sick political posturing.

:(
 
You boys are living in the past - all this talk about trials, warrants, tyrants, Bill of Rights, etc. is the old America. Wake up and stop living in the past. This is the new America and none of that old stuff is needed, George Bush will take care of us.
Oh right, I'm sure Jefferson ensured that all of the captured Barbary pirates got a nice civil trial... and a free fuzzy teddy bear and rainbow unicorn T-shirts. Read a book.
 
Dixie Chicks?? When are people in this country going to stop paying so much attention to entertainers! If they want to entertain me, fine. But when they start getting political, I'm done with them.
 
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