Looking for 9mm for less than 600 dollars - leaning towards a Glock

[WVsig]

Most people will be severely limited in the guns they will be able to use if that were the case.

For a different perspective, Shannon Smith doing mag changes with a G17

At the 2:05 mark, "there is basically no gun on the planet that I can reach the mag release on without shifting the gun in my hand."

At the 7:45 mark he explains that he uses his support hand thumb to release the slide with the slide lock lever.



An alternate way to look at this is the things you need to reach to make the gun fire should be within reach of your strong hand in a firing grip, such as the trigger and a manual safety on a single action auto, while the things that could foul the gun, such as inadvertently dropping a mag (the mag release), or locking the slide back with rounds in the gun (slide lock), are often better when positioned out of the reach of your strong hand in a shooting grip. The need to move your hand to get to those items to avoid the possibility of fouling your gun while shooting could be seen as an advantage.

Another point from Larry Vickers on not using the strong hand thumb (right hander) for slide stop manipulation at the 1:20 mark.

What do those guys know. I saw on Youtube you have to use your strong thumb or your not a true operator or game gunnner.

 

[JTQ]

I'd like to see a poll on how many people can't actuate the magazine release button. My guess is that it would mostly be women and men with small hands.

Are you asking how many can't actuate the magazine release or are you asking how many can't actuate the magazine release without shifting the gun in their hand? I suspect the latter, but that's not what you typed. They are two different things.

Those that can't actuate the mag release without shifting the gun in their hand would include me, and in the two videos I linked above, the already mentioned Shannon Smith, and in the Larry Vickers video, Dave Royer. My guess is there are plenty of others. If you need it, I could find bunches of videos of professional trainers/shooters shifting the gun in their hands to operate the mag release.

 

[aaaaa]

I looked at a picture of a Kel Tec P32. It's mag release button is in nearly the same location as the P365. With your fingers wrapped around the pistol, how could the magazine release button get bumped? Or do you mean it was pressed by your finger or thumb?

It was my thumb on the P32. I remember when my son and I both got S&W SD9 VE pistols, he accidentally ejected the magazine a couple times when we were firing them at the range, but I didn't. So it depends on the gun and the size of the hand and how the hand holds it. Anyway, that is something to think about when checking out a pistol for potential purchase.

 

[Mark_Mark]

Did @Ellen Ripley get his glock yet?

 

[Alllen Bundy]

....or are you asking how many can't actuate the magazine release without shifting the gun in their hand?

I'm asking: "How many can't actuate the magazine release without shifting the gun in their hand?" (I corrected the post)

Those that can't actuate the mag release without shifting the gun in their hand would include me, and in the two videos I linked above, the already mentioned Shannon Smith, and in the Larry Vickers video, Dave Royer. My guess is there are plenty of others. If you need it, I could find bunches of videos of professional trainers/shooters shifting the gun in their hands to operated the mag release.

I'd be curious to see the answer. The tip of my thumb extends a full inch past the most forward part of the magazine release button on my P365X. I cant imagine that the average thumb isn't long enough to actuate the magazine release button. HOWEVER, I acknowledge that it may also be an issue of not being able to articulate the thumb sideways sufficiently to actuate the magazine release button. I need to use a very intentional and deliberate sideways motion of my thumb to to actuate the magazine release button. It's not a motion that I accidentally use when I clench my hand.

I've seen the Shannon Smith video before. His thumb appears to reach the magazine release button. But I can't see the magazine release button well enough to determine whether it's parallel with the gun or angled to it, which makes a huge difference.

The Larry Vickers video makes a great case for striker fired pistols! Vickers showed how easy it is to accidentally de-cock a pistol during a magazine swap. It's a non-issue with a striker fired pistol.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

It was my thumb on the P32. I remember when my son and I both got S&W SD9 VE pistols, he accidentally ejected the magazine a couple times when we were firing them at the range, but I didn't. So it depends on the gun and the size of the hand and how the hand holds it. Anyway, that is something to think about when checking out a pistol for potential purchase.

I completely agree. One size does NOT fit all. But also consider that making minor changes can sometimes produce significant improvements.

 

[JTQ]

I'd be curious to see the answer. The tip of my thumb extends a full inch past the most forward part of the magazine release button on my P365X.

If I recall from your previous posts, you are an adult male and your only pistol experience is with the SIG P365, which is a very small gun. Experiences limited to probably large hands and a small gun can skew your perceptions.

Some more examples of professional trainers that rotate the gun in their hand to activate the mag release ...

Doug Koenig



Hilton Yam



Larry Vickers



Robert Vogel



Tiger McKee



I could keep giving you examples, but hopefully you get the point.

 

[JTQ]

The Larry Vickers video makes a great case for striker fired pistols! Vickers showed how easy it is to accidentally de-cock a pistol during a magazine swap. It's a non-issue with a striker fired pistol.

There are Pro's and Con's to every pistol design. No gun is perfect. You get to decide what features you value.

Here is another video I post often, Ernest Langdon on the features of the Beretta 92 (since it was the gun in the video you commented on). You can skip to the 2:05 mark for a possible advantage over a striker fired gun.

 

[JTQ]

I'd be curious to see the answer.

I'm going way deep into this in a thread that really isn't about this subject.

All I'm really trying to do though, is correct the perception that has been put forward by a couple of forum members that you need to be able to activate the magazine release without shifting the gun in your hand. That is not true as can be seen in the video's I posted above.

 

[Ellen Ripley]

Did @Ellen Ripley get his glock yet?

Not yet.
I haven't picked out a local gun store yet.
I'll give an update when I make some further progress.

 

[Mark_Mark]

Not yet.
I haven't picked out a local gun store yet.
I'll give an update when I make some further progress.

Glock Procrastination

 

[Alllen Bundy]

All I'm really trying to do though, is correct the perception that has been put forward by a couple of forum members that you need to be able to activate the magazine release without shifting the gun in your hand.

In a self defense situation it is a serious detriment if you need to rotate the pistol in your hand, as you have less control of the pistol and could lose control of it in a scuffle or other unknown situation. It's better to not need to rotate the pistol to actuate the magazine release. It would be difficult to argue otherwise.

But we all have physical limitations and need to adapt to the gun as best we can. You wage war with the weapons at hand. But sometimes you have a choice in your weapons and/or can modify them to better fit your needs.

If I recall from your previous posts, you are an adult male and your only pistol experience is with the SIG P365, which is a very small gun. Experiences limited to probably large hands and a small gun can skew your perceptions.

I was just looking at the dimensions of a Sig P320-M17. The handgrip is thicker but about the same width front to back. Even after adding another 1/2" of width to the side of my P365X, my thumb can still easily reach and actuate the magazine release without rotating the pistol in my hand.

 

[JTQ]

I was just looking at the dimensions of a Sig P320-M17. The handgrip is thicker but about the same width front to back. Even after adding another 1/2" of width to the side of my P365X, my thumb can still easily reach and actuate the magazine release without rotating the pistol in my hand.

Max Michel, SIG Academy with a P320



Steve Gilcreast, SIG Academy with a P320



Dylan Kenneson, SIG Academy with a P320

It would be difficult to argue otherwise.

The thing that is difficult to argue, it that there is some requirement to find a gun that you can work the mag or slide release without changing your grip, since nearly everybody shifts their grip to work the mag release. I could probably show you over 100 videos of professional shooters shifting the gun in their hand to work the mag release and you would still hold to your position, so I'll just leave it here.

 

[aaaaa]

The Larry Vickers video makes a great case for striker fired pistols! Vickers showed how easy it is to accidentally de-cock a pistol during a magazine swap. It's a non-issue with a striker fired pistol.

I am not understanding this one. If you de-cock the pistol, and you changed the magazine you would need to rack a round, so would re-cock it. Or is this about at tactical reload where one gets a break in the action and reloads while the other magazine is not spent, so there already is a round in the chamber, in which case the de-cock would be an ugly surprise when the gunfight comes back on.

 

[gunmechanic]

My vote is for the GLOCK!

 

[Skylerbone]

As we have taken a side trip that still concerns choosing a pistol, I’ll chime in if I may. I have good size hands, a 2XL in gloves, and I’ve shrunk a bit with age but am still 6’ 2” tall.

I’ll let the pictures do the talking, couple of pistols I had out, took snapshots for this thread.


Starting big, I was cleaning up this Colt Govt model. With a CORRECT grip (knuckles centered and facing forward) I cannot reach the magazine catch. I would need a minimum of 1/2” more thumb length.


One-hand tension hold showing my hand size.


M&P 40 FS, angled catch. With CORRECT grip I can touch but cannot actuate the mag catch.


All heeled catches would be disqualified.


Switching to a more compact pistol, the Kahr K9, I can again touch but not actuate the mag catch with a CORRECT hold.


Still more compact, this copy of the classic Walther PPK would again require a longer thumb, sorry James Bond.

 

[Mark_Mark]

As we have taken a side trip that still concerns choosing a pistol, I’ll chime in if I may. I have good size hands, a 2XL in gloves, and I’ve shrunk a bit with age but am still 6’ 2” tall.

I’ll let the pictures do the talking, couple of pistols I had out, took snapshots for this thread.


Starting big, I was cleaning up this Colt Govt model. With a CORRECT grip (knuckles centered and facing forward) I cannot reach the magazine catch. I would need a minimum of 1/2” more thumb length.
View attachment 1082971

One-hand tension hold showing my hand size.
View attachment 1082972

M&P 40 FS, angled catch. With CORRECT grip I can touch but cannot actuate the mag catch.
View attachment 1082973

All heeled catches would be disqualified.
View attachment 1082974

Switching to a more compact pistol, the Kahr K9, I can again touch but not actuate the mag catch with a CORRECT hold.
View attachment 1082975

Still more compact, this copy of the classic Walther PPK would again require a longer thumb, sorry James Bond.
View attachment 1082976

Bro, You should start a YT channel!

Or are you already a Professional?

 

[Skylerbone]

Bro, You should start a YT channel!

Or are you already a Professional?

Im barely a duffer and generally camera shy. Apparently all young kids think I’m Markiplier though so maybe I’d do well on YouTube.

 

[Mark_Mark]

Im barely a duffer and generally camera shy. Apparently all young kids think I’m Markiplier though so maybe I’d do well on YouTube.

Do it man! you got a Guntuber face!

 

[Alllen Bundy]

....,With a CORRECT grip (knuckles centered and facing forward) I cannot reach the magazine catch. I would need a minimum of 1/2” more thumb length.....
M&P 40 FS, angled catch. With CORRECT grip I can touch but cannot actuate the mag catch......
Switching to a more compact pistol, the Kahr K9, I can again touch but not actuate the mag catch with a CORRECT hold......
Still more compact, this copy of the classic Walther PPK would again require a longer thumb, sorry James Bond.....

Are you unable to actuate the magazine release with the tip of your thumb, or the side of your thumb, or both, without rotating the pistol in your hand?

With my P365X, I push the magazine release button inward with the side of the thumb.

I hopefully will be making a trip to the gun shop and range next week. I'll have to see if my thumb can actuate the magazine releases on full size pistols without rotating the pistol in my hand.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

I am not understanding this one. If you de-cock the pistol, and you changed the magazine you would need to rack a round, so would re-cock it. Or is this about at tactical reload where one gets a break in the action and reloads while the other magazine is not spent, so there already is a round in the chamber, in which case the de-cock would be an ugly surprise when the gunfight comes back on.

I think with the hammer back, Larry is hitting the slide release and the decocker at the same time and when the slide comes forward the gun decocks at the same time. That's what I'm seeing anyways.

 

[JTQ]

I am not understanding this one. If you de-cock the pistol, and you changed the magazine you would need to rack a round, so would re-cock it. Or is this about at tactical reload where one gets a break in the action and reloads while the other magazine is not spent, so there already is a round in the chamber, in which case the de-cock would be an ugly surprise when the gunfight comes back on.

I think with the hammer back, Larry is hitting the slide release and the decocker at the same time and when the slide comes forward the gun decocks at the same time. That's what I'm seeing anyways.

No, it's not a decock issue, it is an issue of putting the gun on safe (the gun is decocked, but it is that it is on safe that is the issue), accidentally, when you rack the slide.

The gun in the video is a a Beretta 92FS/M9 that has a safety/decocker. If you put the gun on safe (decocked, the lever stays down and the hammer stays down and the gun is on safe), you have a dead trigger and you can't fire the gun.

 

[defjon]

What is a gun tuber face

 

[Skylerbone]

Are you unable to actuate the magazine release with the tip of your thumb, or the side of your thumb, or both, without rotating the pistol in your hand?

No way, no how can I actuate any of the above without shifting my grip. In fact, if you look at the M&P you’ll see a hump built in to the frame just behind the release that’s meant to protect it from being actuated accidentally.




12oz soda can.

 

[Mark_Mark]

I see @Ellen Ripley still have not got his Glock