M1A w/Ultimak- Leupold FX-II, Burris IER, or Aimpoint Micro T-1?

[Coronach]

I posted this over at WTA, but THR's rifle section has a lot more traffic:

I have an M14 clone with an Ultimak on it now, so I'm wondering what glass to put on it. I already have an iron-sight only M1A and a conventionally scoped SAI NM, so I already have the iron sights and conventional scope angles covered. I'm trying to decide if I want to go red dot on this one, or scout scope.

OT1H, putting a dot on it will kinda make it a nice "fast" .308 battle rifle. OTOH, putting a red dot on it robs you of the benefits of magnification, which a big .308 rifle just screams for. In either case, I can make use of the optic if I decide not to use it on this rifle. I have an old enfield that someone converted to a scout, and it needs glass. It can wear the scout scope if I decide it won't work here. And if the micro doesn't sing to me on this rifle, I have about a half dozen rifles that would gladly adopt it. Still, it would be nice to get this one squared away and move on.

What I wish is that I could put the Micro out on the Ultimak rail and put a magnifier further back on another rail, but I don't think I can make the height, eye relief, distance between the optics, etc match up.

Anyone have thoughts about the Burris IER vs the Leupold IER? Leupold, of course, has a better rep for quality, but the Burris has a lifetime warranty and their IER scopes offer some neat features. http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=6&t=241015&page=1

Thanks,

Mike

 

[H2O MAN]

Mike, that 7 page thread on this particular subject over on AR15.com covers just about everything.

Of all the different forward mounted optics that I have tried I like the T-1 and the Leupold Scout scope best.

Good luck with your project.

 

[Coronach]

Do you have an experience with the Burris IER scope? On paper it looks to be better than the Leupold, but it's hard to quantify things like optical clarity and durability, both of which would probably favor the Leupold.

Also, I take it that an Aimpoint T1 on the Ultimak and a 3x magnifier further aft would not work, for the obvious reasons (height and making the proper eye relief while staying close enough to the T1 to be useful)?

Thanks,

Mike

 

[H2O MAN]

I did try the Burris and had problems with eye relief when it was set at 7x, I sold it off.

I don't see any way to get a magnifier to line up with a T-1 on the UltiMAK.

The T-1/UltiMAK combo is about as good as it gets though

 

[Coronach]

Yeah...man, it just seems like a big .308 traditionally-stocked rifle screams for magnification, though...but yeah, that T-1 would be sweeeeeet.

Of course, the OBVIOUS answer is to get yet another one and do it both ways...

Mike

PS No, that's not really an option.

PPS Really.

PPPS If I keep repeating it, I might believe it...

 

[H2O MAN]

I know what you mean and I'm considering my options...

This MK14 SEI is great fun to shoot with the T-1, but a 1-4x24
or a 2.5-10x32 scope would better match the rifles capabilities
without over doing things and adding too much extra weight.

Maybe a 2.5-10x32 scope with the T-1 in an offset mount???










.

 

[Kind of Blued]

When a gun already weighs ~14 lbs., adding < one pound to get from a 4 MOA red dot to a 1-4x24 or 2.5-10x32 scope seems like a no-brainer to me.

 

[Kind of Blued]

P.S. Especially when you're dealing with a gun which is capable at 800-1000 meters.

If you're going to limit yourself with a 2-4 MOA 1X sight, it makes much more sense to utilize an intermediate cartridge in my opinion.

 

[Ian]

I have a tanker M1 with an AmegaRanges rail, which is virtually the same setup as an Ultimak on an M1A. I went through this choice, and picked a 2-7x Burris. I think you give up too much potential with a red dot.

The things I really liked about the Burris:

The low minimum power. It's low enough to shoot with both eyes open like a red dot.

The higher max power. I liked being able to dial up the magnification for longer shots, compared to the fixed-power IER scopes.

The Ballistic Plex reticle. I haven't had the trigger time to really explore this, but the Burris reticle has several horizontal stadia roughly corresponding to different ranges with various calibers. Once you memorize what ranges they fit with your particular rifle and ammo, it should allow pretty good holdovers without having to mess with the scope or guesstimate how high to hold (assuming you can guesstimate the range well).

The eye relief fit me. I took my M1 to a Cabelas to try out a half dozen different long eye relief scopes, and the Burris fit as well as or better than any of them, at both 2x and 7x. Some needed to be mounted too close or far to fit my rail, and some required me to be really precise with my eye placement. The Burris just fit really nicely.

 

[H2O MAN]

Kind of Blued When a gun already weighs ~14lbs.

What gun already weighs 14 lbs. ??

 

[lipadj46]

I don't see any way to get a magnifier to line up with a T-1 on the UltiMAK.

Doen't SEI make an extended rail that attaches to their scope mount for mounting NVD in front of a scope? I bet that system could be used for a red dot and magnifier.

 

[H2O MAN]

lipadj46
Doen't SEI make an extended rail that attaches to their scope mount for mounting NVD in front of a scope?
I bet that system could be used for a red dot and magnifier.

This?

 

[lipadj46]

Yeah looking at it I would bet the connecting point may get in the way. It would be an interesting but expensive experiment to try. Doesn't Knights Manufacturing (Armory?) and SAI make and extended top rail for there quad rail mount? Wonder if those would work also.

 

[H2O MAN]

I think it would be easier and more practical to use a SAGE EBR or TROY MCS.

 

[lipadj46]

Yeah the Troy would probably be best. There are no budget options that's for sure. Any way you go with the M14 you are always looking at big bucks it seems. I am still surprised no one has come out with an affordable pistol grip M14 stock.

 

[H2O MAN]

lipadj46 I am still surprised no one has come out with an affordable pistol grip M14 stock.

Tony @ LAW483.com is working on an affordable one

 

[Coronach]

Doen't SEI make an extended rail that attaches to their scope mount for mounting NVD in front of a scope? I bet that system could be used for a red dot and magnifier.

It could, I bet. The things it gives up, however, are weight and height. It looks heavy, and is significantly higher than the Ultimak.

Mike

 

[lipadj46]

Yeah it has to be higher to line up with the scope mount. Like was said above sounds like you would need to get the Troy stock or one of the quad rails with the extended upper rail. Big bucks either way. Sometimes with the M14 you just have to really love the original configuration unless you have tons of cash to throw at it.

 

[Coronach]

Right, and for me, the new, improved config loses something along the way. I'm all for modifying the old warhorse to make it more useful for our servicemen, but it's not for me.

Mike

 

[H2O MAN]

......

When it comes to optics mounted out in front of the receiver the UltiMAK/T-1 combo is ideal for the SOCOM, it also works
very well on the Bush, Scout & MK14, but it limits the practical use of the 18.0" barrel. The fixed magnification Leupold Scout
scope is better suited to the 18.0" barrel, but the 18.0" & 22.0" barrels are better utilized with variable magnification optics
mounted over the receiver. Optics mounted over the receiver will require some kind of cheek riser or modern stock - MCS or EBR.

 

[Red State]

scout

I have seen the Burris scout scope on the M1A - looks pretty good and sits nice and low.

 

[Kind of Blued]

What gun already weighs 14 lbs. ??

Maybe I'm off by a bit? How much does your gun pictured above weigh fully-loaded (21-26 rounds) with the bipod, flashlight, and scope mount?

I'd certainly be suprised if it was under 12 pounds, at which point adding another 12 ounces to get from a 2-4 MOA red dot to a 2.5-10x scope seems like an acceptable trade-off. That's just my opinion of course.

 

[H2O MAN]

Kind of Blued

Maybe I'm off by a bit? How much does your gun pictured above weigh
fully-loaded (21-26 rounds) with the bipod, flashlight, and scope mount?

The weight of the rifle including the T-1, LaRue mount, SureFire light as
pictured with a full 20 round magazine is 12.0 lbs. 9.0 Oz., there is no bipod.

I agree that the weight trade-off would be acceptable

 

[amprecon]

I'm seriously considering going with an M1A Scout and putting an Aimpoint on it. I just think it'd be a quick handling powerful brush gun which also can reach out and touch whatever I can see.

 

[fragout]

If your entertaining other ideas for your M1A, then this might be something of interest for you......



This receiver mount is an ARMS #18 split rail/older model mount. The new models are have one single rail in place, are easier to aquire, and would give you the rail space to mount red dot sights such as an Aimpoint. So far, it has proven to be the most low profile mount I have found (lower than the LRB M25 design), and requires little cheek weld build up. It keeps an 18in bbl rifle well balanced for me at least, and makes for a very low profile, lightweight, compact place for mounting various optics to, plus being that it is a receiver mount, it allows for more variations in what optics I want to use. A draw back to this is the inability to use the cartridge clip guide via "stripper clips", as this is removed for the ARMS18 to mount up to the rifle.
Hopefully this pick can give you an idea of the cheekweld build up you might need...depending on the optics.

An adjustable cheek piece might come in handy if you want to run different optics from the same rifle, such as a dot sight, and NVS.

Note: This rifle weighs out at 9 pounds even as pictured, minus the magazine. A CMI 20rd mag topped off with 20rds of WIN Q3130 weighs out at 1.5pounds flat.


Note: Scale used for weigh in is a digital Pelouze model 4010.

Note: This is not an M1A Scout, but a custom build, using a Norinco M14S rec, and Criterion chrome lined 18.5in std contour bbl. My M1A Bush rifle ( essentially a Scout without a scout mount, and flash hider instead of muzzle brake)weighs in at 8.3pounds all by it's lonesome.


Note: the M1A Bush rifle, and the M14 Tanker pictured above both sport USGI synthetic stocks, and both of them have had the selector lever holes filled in.

Overall, I have found this set up to be more flexible than the scout mount/rail types out there, and does save on the weight some. Others milage may vary, but this has been a solid way for mounting optics in my case, and I prefer the traditional stock over the pistol grip types out there.

Hope this helps you with your decision.

11B