M6 Survival: .22LR vs .22 WMR?

[TTv2]

Knowing what I do of “prepper communities,” it seems there is seldom any true logic behind most of the decisions being made there within …

You seem to offer a lot of criticisms, but no alternative suggestions. What should the "prepper community" be using if not the M6 or other similar combination guns?

 

[Armored farmer]

I hunted moose for a week in Ontario.
We wouldn't have brought any meat home if it weren't for our guide's model 24 22lr/410.
As it turned out, we all got grouse, ate grouse and mushroom gravy a few times, and brought 16 home with us... thanks to that Savage 24.
As soon as I got home I started looking for one of my own. I finally found it and paid too much for one with excellent wood. It was worth every penny. An excellent squirrel and rabbit gun.

The 24 I had was the Deluxe model and they had a full-choke bore, which I hated, because it destroyed a lot of meat.

I hunted quail for the last three years of my career with a .410. My buddy and I only shot over points. I found that I was still making featherburgers out of the birds, so I bored my 870 to .408.....more featherburgers so I bored it to .410 and .....no better.
IMHO The long thin shot column tends to shoot tight regardless of the choke. All my boring, boring...() was nothing but a waste of time.

 

[Varminterror]

You seem to offer a lot of criticisms, but no alternative suggestions. What should the "prepper community" be using if not the M6 or other similar combination guns?

This isn’t a SHTF forum, nor do I entertain here the premise of preparing to battle imaginary dragons.

Define a realizable context for which the M6 would be used and I’d be glad to do so, as others have already done in this thread. There really isn’t a realizable context where the M6 offers true advantages, and further, none where it is the superior alternative. Which is largely why the M6 has even been retired from its originating service some 50yrs ago.

As a combo-gun, the Savage is a far better rifle. “Survival rifle” is near meaningless, but the M6 is a long ways from the best option in its class, as it’s easily demonstrated above better options exist, including the Savage 24/42. As a pilot/bomber flight crew “non-combative zone” survival kit rifle, again, better options exist… we have to buy into a fantasy of impossible survival scenarios and further indulge TERRIBLE firearm performance to pretend the M6 is a viable choice for anything, let alone the superior option.

 

[TTv2]

This isn’t a SHTF forum, nor do I entertain here the premise of preparing to battle imaginary dragons.

Define a realizable context for which the M6 would be used and I’d be glad to do so, as others have already done in this thread. There really isn’t a realizable context where the M6 offers true advantages, and further, none where it is the superior alternative. Which is largely why the M6 has even been retired from its originating service some 50yrs ago.

As a combo-gun, the Savage is a far better rifle. “Survival rifle” is near meaningless, but the M6 is a long ways from the best option in its class, as it’s easily demonstrated above better options exist, including the Savage 24/42. As a pilot/bomber flight crew “non-combative zone” survival kit rifle, again, better options exist… we have to buy into a fantasy of impossible survival scenarios and further indulge TERRIBLE firearm performance to pretend the M6 is a viable choice for anything, let alone the superior option.

You seem to only want to criticize the M6 and that's fine, I don't like the M6 that much either, it may have been more cost effective for the Air Force for decades and done well enough for the task, but best? Probably not.

But your answer is the Savage 24/42 is a better gun, so I take it that's what you would recommend to the "prepper community", yes?

 

[gotboostvr]

If you want a small rifle that'll stow away easily I'd recommend a bog standard 10/22 takedown.

It'll brake down to a similar size as the M6 and will outshoot it. Not to mention the advantages of a repeater.

Grab one of the models with the Magpul stock that let's you store loaded mags with the gun.

 

[Mosin77]

OP originally suggested the rifle was for plinking/small game/camp defense (varmints?) and general woods carry. But survival has been mentioned a couple of times as well now.

It’s hard to argue the merits of a 12g pump, a single shot .22lr, a .22wmr/.22 hornet bolt gun, and an AR15. Except that now we’re talking 3+ rather bulky guns. “Woods walking” today is going to be dependent on what’s legal in what season, and what you’re actually hoping to accomplish.

In a survival situation (plane crash in the wilderness? Hard to think of many other scenarios where you suddenly find yourself in the middle of nowhere, needing to survive) you’ll probably only have one gun, if any, so a combination gun might be very appreciated. Assuming you have a variety of ammo for it of course. Way better than a sharp stick. But a takedown .22 would probably be a lot better from a logistics standpoint. A brick of .22lr vs just a couple dozen shotgun shells in the small survival kit area of of your bush plane…

In some kind of bug-out situation, I’d only grab a combination gun if I thought I’d need to do a lot of subsistence hunting. Which I think is pretty overrated in most “survival” scenarios. The available game will go fast unless you’re in a very isolated area… in which case you probably also have guns more suited to the specific game found there.

I do understand the appeal though: one gun that can basically do everything, carry it into the wilderness and survive like a modern day mountain man. But if it’s a pretty lousy gun for real world use, I’d stick to the .22 or the 12/20g, not necessarily both in one firearm.

 

[Varminterror]

But your answer is the Savage 24/42 is a better gun, so I take it that's what you would recommend to the "prepper community", yes?

No, and I made no such claim.

The Savage 24 and 42 are better combo guns than the M6. I made and remain to make no claims as to what firearm would be best for the impossible pretend scenarios various people might devise so they can call themselves "preppers." Within the context of my personal, family, and professional risk profiles, I have no REALIZABLE context, no actually plausible risk scenario, in which a combo gun is a viable solution. I'll leave the SHTF/Prepper discussion at that.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I've hunted quite a bit with both a 410 and 20g and it's no guarantee that I'd get any more game with a pound of 410 shells than I would with a pound of 20s lol.

That's probably true. But most of the grouse I see are on the ground, about 15 yards away, so no problem for the .410. I've got dozens with .44Spl shot shells.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I'll leave the SHTF/Prepper discussion at that.

Well there's SHTF survival, and wilderness survival. I thought we were talking about wilderness survival. That's my preference anyways.

 

[Varminterror]

In some kind of bug-out situation, I’d only grab a combination gun if I thought I’d need to do a lot of subsistence hunting. Which I think is pretty overrated in most “survival” scenarios.

This is a great prelude to elucidate my statements above - there's no realizable context where "bugging out" from the city actually makes sense for the overwhelming majority of folks which hold that plan. The United States is no longer home to vast frontiers of wilderness. For the overwhelming majority of land in the United States, "bugging out" and "subsistence hunting" involves trespassing, and in most of those states, in the absence of law preventing such - hence the perceived context of "bugging out," then speaking for those of us which live there, own the land, and raise the crops and livestock on them - there are a lot of us waiting with rifles if anyone ever has an idea of coming to take any of it, and we've had the room to shoot them at our leisure for generations... One of my cousins says it best, "I love the idea of all of those city boys "bugging out" onto my property and hand delivering those food supplies, fancy rifles, and ammo to my door, saves me the trip, and we're never short on places to hide folks who 'went missing' that 'we've never seen.'..."

And hell, I wouldn't grab a combo gun even if I COULD rely upon subsistence hunting, I didn't when I WAS subsistence hunting in younger years, and I wouldn't pick one for hunting now - damned sure wouldn't pick an M6 for the task over other options. The US is covered with livestock for a reason - subsistence hunting sucked, that's why we stopped. There are 40million cattle, around 75million hogs, and 1.5 billion chickens in the US at any given time... "Bugging out" with a 22LR and chasing after rabbits is about as dumb as a plan could get, almost as dumb as getting shot by farmers and ranchers because you're one of the 290 million people living in cities which thinks they're going to trespass and start living off of someone else's land...

 

[Picher]

I hunted moose for a week in Ontario.
We wouldn't have brought any meat home if it weren't for our guide's model 24 22lr/410.
As it turned out, we all got grouse, ate grouse and mushroom gravy a few times, and brought 16 home with us... thanks to that Savage 24.
As soon as I got home I started looking for one of my own. I finally found it and paid too much for one with excellent wood. It was worth every penny. An excellent squirrel and rabbit gun.
View attachment 1154077

I hunted quail for the last three years of my career with a .410. My buddy and I only shot over points. I found that I was still making featherburgers out of the birds, so I bored my 870 to .408.....more featherburgers so I bored it to .410 and .....no better.
IMHO The long thin shot column tends to shoot tight regardless of the choke. All my boring, boring...() was nothing but a waste of time.

I had a couple. One was a .357 mag, over 20 gauge. I didn't care much for the .357, but it was okay. Another, a Deluxe model, was a .22LR over 20 Ga. and that one was great!

 

[Mosin77]

This is a great prelude to elucidate my statements above - there's no realizable context where "bugging out" from the city actually makes sense for the overwhelming majority of folks which hold that plan. The United States is no longer home to vast frontiers of wilderness. For the overwhelming majority of land in the United States, "bugging out" and "subsistence hunting" involves trespassing, and in most of those states, in the absence of law preventing such - hence the perceived context of "bugging out," then speaking for those of us which live there, own the land, and raise the crops and livestock on them - there are a lot of us waiting with rifles if anyone ever has an idea of coming to take any of it, and we've had the room to shoot them at our leisure for generations... One of my cousins says it best, "I love the idea of all of those city boys "bugging out" onto my property and hand delivering those food supplies, fancy rifles, and ammo to my door, saves me the trip, and we're never short on places to hide folks who 'went missing' that 'we've never seen.'..."

And hell, I wouldn't grab a combo gun even if I COULD rely upon subsistence hunting, I didn't when I WAS subsistence hunting in younger years, and I wouldn't pick one for hunting now - damned sure wouldn't pick an M6 for the task over other options. The US is covered with livestock for a reason - subsistence hunting sucked, that's why we stopped. There are 40million cattle, around 75million hogs, and 1.5 billion chickens in the US at any given time... "Bugging out" with a 22LR and chasing after rabbits is about as dumb as a plan could get, almost as dumb as getting shot by farmers and ranchers because you're one of the 290 million people living in cities which thinks they're going to trespass and start living off of someone else's land...

I agree, the common premise is very flawed. As someone who lives near a big city, I can think of very few situations where I’d need to bug out at all, and I can’t think of any scenario in which I’d need to bug out with only one gun. If I can take a car I can take a few guns. Along with my family, and lots of other important things. If I’m on foot, where am I going? I mean, never say never, I guess it’s theoretically possible for an EMP to take out all the cars, and then an invading army and ensuing combat forces me and my family to become refugees…… but even in this very particular and extremely unlikely scenario (I put the odds only a little better than stumbling into a mad scientist’s time machine and suddenly finding myself in 1623, which is why we generally don’t discuss this topic on THR I presume) pot hunting on the route will, realistically, probably not be an option, at least not enough of an option to handicap myself with a gun that’s not terribly good at anything.

Now, to return to the original idea in this thread, for general woods carry in the Midwest, upon more reflection I’d probably go for .22lr because it can do mostly everything you’d want to do in the woods, at far greater economy. When I buy a new gun I generally like to shoot it more. But if I am fulfilling this gun’s original purpose and keeping it under the seat in an Alaskan floatplane, .22mag would probably be best.

 

[mavracer]

Well there's SHTF survival, and wilderness survival. I thought we were talking about wilderness survival. That's my preference anyways.

I agree with @Varminterror talk of survival is just that talk there's just no longer any need to live off the land.
I like the combo gun for non hunting situations where small game could be a target of opportunity, of course lots of other guns would be fine too.

 

[chicharrones]

For SHTF, city folks should simply think of what people do in the aftermath of hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis, or invasions like in Ukraine.

For someone that enjoys living off the land bushcraft style for recreational reasons, it sounds like a great way to spend some time away from the hordes of humans that city folk need a break from. Provided you have legal places to do so.

Now back to the combo guns. Seems like there is a lot of love for the Savage 24. What’s THR’s view of the “plasticated” Savage 42?

 

[jmorris]

Now back to the combo guns. Seems like there is a lot of love for the Savage 24. What’s THR’s view of the “plasticated” Savage 42?

I don’t mind plastic as much as I am not a huge fan of the .410. I have lots more firearms that contain plastic than I do .410’s and I have a 366 setup for .410, eliminating it’s largest downfall, ammunition cost.

If they made one in 20ga, I probably would already have one in the mule to replace the prettier 24 in use now.

 

[chicharrones]

My .410 experience is limited to my pre-teen years with a single shot break open that I shared with my younger brother. We never became proficient hitting moving targets with that gun in the few years we had access to it.

 

[CraigC]

I came real close to bidding on a Savage 24 in .22LR/20ga. IMHO, one can have an in depth conversation about these guns and their intended purpose without getting into SHTF nonsense. One can "bug out" to the woods every weekend and put one of these guns to regular use.

I've been wishing for a long time that the .22mag would be offered in light loadings, like the CCI .22LR "Quiet" ammo.

I was going to mention it here but forgot to. Winchester had a 45gr lead subsonic load that was fantastic. Wish I'd bought two cases when it was available. It's still on the website but I haven't seen it in a few years now.

 

[d2wing]

Walking in the woods hunting small game on an extended wilderness trip I would take a nice 22LR or shotgun and 22 pistol. In my opinion combo guns aren't that useful. Your opinion can be different.
I agree that a shift scenario of bugging out and living off someone else's land is totally unrealistic. If there was still a vast wilderness out there it would not last more than days or weeks if a few million city people moved there and hunted for food. Before smokeless powder was invented most wildlife was reduced to low enough levels that remaining native people couldn't live on it. The Great Sioux Uprising in early 1860s was about nothing left for hunting.

 

[mavracer]

Now back to the combo guns. Seems like there is a lot of love for the Savage 24. What’s THR’s view of the “plasticated” Savage 42?

Like @jmorris I would have more issue with it being a 410 than plastic. Although with the prevalence of the Taurus Judge there are quite a few 410 SD type ammo that would br useful. The biggest fault for my use would be wing shooting.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I agree with @Varminterror talk of survival is just that talk there's just no longer any need to live off the land.
I like the combo gun for non hunting situations where small game could be a target of opportunity, of course lots of other guns would be fine too.

Truth. However, in real wilderness areas one can wind up spending a few unexpected days or nights due to injury or getting lost. If one was short on food to begin with, it would be useful to be able to harvest some small game and cook it up. That's how I see it anyhow.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I was going to mention it here but forgot to. Winchester had a 45gr lead subsonic load that was fantastic. Wish I'd bought two cases when it was available. It's still on the website but I haven't seen it in a few years now.

I have a Little Badger in .22LR that I truly love. I'd get another in .22Mag if I thought I could find that load, and have "two guns in one". That still leaves the question of "will it shoot in my specific gun". But, it probably would. ? With the .22LR, I was able to shoot many different brands and loads of .22LR to find the most accurate, which for small game hunting is very important to me. Turned out it was most laser accurate with the CCI "quiet", which was an added bonus.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

For someone that enjoys living off the land bushcraft style for recreational reasons, it sounds like a great way to spend some time away from the hordes of humans that city folk need a break from. Provided you have legal places to do so.

Bingo, that's my bag. Bushcraft! Multi-day wanderings in the wilderness. Practicing all the bushcraft stuff. I have a great wilderness area 86 miles from home, up North in the North East corner of Washington state. Grizzly recovery area too. Is that wild enough? It is for me. Every couple of years guys get lost and die up there, but not so much lately. Been quite a few years since the last one. Of course that's due to getting lost, and then panic sets in, they exhaust themselves and die of hypothermia, with matches in their pockets. Ironic, tragic and sad.

Heck, I live in a rural area, and need a break from the humans!!! Me and humans don't always get along. And some humans, ain't very human.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Like @jmorris I would have more issue with it being a 410 than plastic. Although with the prevalence of the Taurus Judge there are quite a few 410 SD type ammo that would br useful. The biggest fault for my use would be wing shooting.

I believe that's where the 410 falls short. Shooting on the fly, where a 20 would be far superior. But as mentioned, in my specific area of woods-loafing-bumming I see the grouse and rabbits, and squirrels at very close range. The grouse, if they fly usually go a little ways and land in a tree. Sometimes you can find them again, but boy they can be so invisible sitting on a branch. Have to stare at the tree until it moves or bobs it's head to find it. That can take forever, or never.

So for me, that's where the 20 with 410 inserts shine, I can use the 410's most of the time, and carry more, but still have a few 20gauge shot shells "just in case". And of course, with some Brenekke slugs I'm fairly confident that I can discourage lions and tigers and bears. I wouldn't want to shoot a bear with any kind of 410 load.

 

[mavracer]

Truth. However, in real wilderness areas one can wind up spending a few days or nights due to injury or getting lost. If one was short on food to begin with, it would be useful to be able to harvest some small game and cook it up. That's how I see it anyhow.

Yes but we're kinda going in circles just how many shotgun shells do you need for a few days?

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Walking in the woods hunting small game on an extended wilderness trip I would take a nice 22LR or shotgun and 22 pistol. In my opinion combo guns aren't that useful. Your opinion can be different.

Truth to that. I always pair a rifle/pistol or shotgun/pistol. That is perhaps the best combo of all. The combination of the two is important. So with a powerful rifle or shotgun, I'll take a small game pistol, my two favorites being a 1862 Pocket Police, or my AirLite S&W .22LR. (both small game laser accurate) With a .22LR rifle, or a ..22Mag (if I had one) or my .22Hornet, then it's a .45Colt, .44Mag or a .357, which I don't usually take (the .357) since it's no advantage over the .44 or .45. But, don't yell at me, I love the .357. I pair one with my Rossi 92 in .357 when I take it. And I love to carry that Rossi.