Maybe I'm wrong but this just looked bad.

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thatguy

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I was at a recent gun show and I saw a dealer at a table, who had an FFL because buyers were filling out 4473s, selling a pistol in what looked to me like a straw sale.

Woman who looked 21 or 22 was filling out form. Man, maybe 26-28, standing next to her. He had gang tattoos covering his neck and his general appearance was pretty shady. He was the one holding the handgun as she completed the 4473.

Am I wrong or does this situation look like the woman was buying the gun for the man who may have been disqualified due to previous convictions? I mean, I know we're not supposed to make suppositions based on appearances (Hell, I look pretty seedy at times) but this guy just looked like an ex-con.

I wasn't sure enough about any of this to say anything to the cops at the show, and maybe the dealer knew what I didn't and all was OK, but it sure looked bad. I hate to see anything disreputable going on at gun shows since they are already under attack by the anti-gun crowd.
 
Maybe he was illiterate and she was filling out the form for him. Maybe it was a bf helping his gf select a good carry gun and he wanted to check out the piece before completing the transaction. Maybe she was buying it as a gift for him.

Lots of possibilities here, and while you may have been right I hope that was not the case.
 
Look around for sources of 'prison tattoos' they are unique, and see if you recognize any of them...
 
She may have been buying the gun simply because she could. When my wife and I were gun shopping she insisted on filling out the paperwork herself, because she had never done it before. Coming from Chicago, it had never occured to her that she could own a gun.

You say this woman looked to be 21. Maybe she was buying a handgun rather than getting a drink at some bar.
 
You seem to be assuming an awful lot based only on how things appeared to you and, you were someone who was not involved in this at all from the the way I read it. Sure it could have been a straw purchase then again it could have been totally legitimate. So called gang or jailhouse tattoos are not reserved solely for gang members or ex-cons and, straw purchases are not made only by those who look bad. Heck I could dress up in a three piece suit and make such a purchase if I was so inclined but, I am neither inclined to dress up or make a straw purchase.

All the best,
Glenn B
 
I know a few paranoid people who will not purchase a weapon that involves paperwork, for fear of what may happen in the future with gun control... Could be a similar situation...

- Clint :D
 
If you flip a 4473 over and read the definitions of question 1 (Are you the purchaser) you will find that purchasing a firearm as a gift allows you to answer yes to that question and still give it to someone. With that said you are assuming a awful lot.
 
I would go with psyopspec's options. There are so many possible legal reasons she was buying the gun and not him beyond the one illegal reason she may have been buying the gun. Unless you absolutely know for sure something is wrong with the purchase, it's best to leave the worries to the dealers. With all the police/ATF presence at gun shows today, I would find it highly unlikely that a dealer would knowingly even consider a shady transaction.

Did you note the model or type of the gun?
 
Don't take this wrong, but it is a good idea to keep one's nose out of another person's business. None of us wants to see guns in the wrong hands, but the dealer is risking his license and freedom if he makes a wrong sale, and he should know that. You are jumping to a conclusion based on assumptions that you don't know enough to make. Don't get involved.

Jim
 
Straw sales happen.

There's nothing I can do about them unless I know all the facts; even then, there's not much chance the local law enforcement authorities or the B.A.T.F.E. would do much about them: they're too busy keeping a close eye on the law-abiding.
 
Wow,

Let's not get involved....

In my experience, when things look bad, they usually are. We can come up with all kinds of neato rationalizations and paint the pig gold, but it sounds to me like probable cause to believe that something aint right, but whadda I know about probable cause. Now as to what to do I dont know, but trust your gut instinct, that's what ya got'em for.

As much as we may like to pretend they dont exist, there are shady dealers and criminals with guns. Apparently we dont WANT to police ourselves and would apparently prefer the BATFE do it. :scrutiny:
 
OK, several said I was jumping to conclusions. Well, I allowed for the possibility that I was way off base and that's why I didn't get involved. But I'm not sure what other conclusions I am supposed to reach with a guy wearing gang banger clothing and gang tattoos. I sort of think he has past or present gang affiliations, you know?

Some said to mind my own business (someone said "don't stick your nose in"). Well, I didn't stick my nose in except to bring it up for anonymous discussion. But as a law-abiding citizen and someone who is interested in protecting the Second Amendment, gun shows, and the legal use of firearms, I think I do have a small amount of interest in crimes being committed (if that is what was happening) involving firearms and gun show venues.

Yes, I know there are numerous possibilities that explain the situation and I said maybe the dealer knows something I don't and all is well. Like I said, it LOOKED bad.

To the person who doesn't care if a crime was being committed at a gun show, that's your choice. I prefer that the anti-gun folks not have ammunition to use against us and I also prefer that gang members and other criminals not buy guns.

On dealers making lots of straw sales, and "they happen," well, if the ATF finds out you're selling guns in what you suspect are straw sales all sorts of stuff "will happen." Like losing your FFL, fines, felony convictions, etc.

But, as the one who was actually there, I can assure all of you it looked funny (not in the humorous way) and even giving the tattooed man the benefit of the doubt he was scary looking. None of this is proof, of course, of any wrongdoing but it aroused my curiosity.

Interesting responses. I expected replies condemning what may have been an illegal gun purchase and instead I get criticized for not minding my own business and people defend the apparent gang member. Go figure.
 
no good deed goes unpunished.... or in this case no thought goes uncriticised and no opinion goes second-guessed.

You saw what you saw and reported it. You have to be prepared for others to use (misuse) your report to advocate their own political position.

FWIW I have been surprised several times by the opinions expressed by posters here. Some of them make Libertarians look like big-government types.

G
 
IMHO, I would say that just the facts you describe are not enough to make accusations. We all get suspicious sometimes, but I am sure people have looked at me suspiciously when I am not dressed well and haven't shaved in a few days.
 
Thatguy:
I think the reason you're getting mostly grumbles is that you're acting without any evidence. You saw something that looked similar to what somebody did wrong once, and decided that this must also be wrong. Kinda like having a coffee can is evidence that you're hauling drugs. It isn't. If you have something specific to go on--perhaps identifying one of the tattoos as a prison tattoo, maybe overhearing a conversation about the purchase--that's one thing. That's "probable cause." Seeing it from whereever you saw it, and just thinking he looked "shady," isn't. Here's what we're seeing:
1. He looked shady--but you say yourself you can look shady, too. So can I. So can anybody. Maybe he just liked the look--I've seen people far stranger than that. Check out Lizardman. This one's a no-bill.
2. You said yourself you didn't even feel confident enough to go tell the local cops so they could investigate. If you didn't think you had enough to say "hey, something doesn't smell right, you guys might want to take a look," then there's not enough evidence to take a look--unless, of course, you want the police to have the power to start working without evidence.
3. There have been a number of perfectly valid alternatives listed here. I've engaged in a few of them--a number of people have asked me for advice on what gun to buy, and that form is A) confusing, and B) subject to change about every, what, three months? Having a friend along can be helpful.
4. You'll also find people here who don't necessarily believe that ex-cons should be barred from posession of a firearm. They're the ones who really believe in the Second Amendment, as it's written.
 
This isn't something for you to judge.
Looks can be deceiving, the dealer still makes the FTIP call and if they approve it, it is on their hands, not yours or the dealers.
One can refuse a sale at any time and the dealer apparently felt comfortable with the progress of the sale so let it alone.
 
I can remember the...

first time my wife purchased a handgun of her own. By most ourside observers it probably looked like she was making a straw purchase for me.

She said she wanted a .357mag revolver. I looked around at the local gunshops and found a 686+ at my favorite gun store that I thought would be what she was looking for.

When we walked up to the counter, she asked me "which one". I showed her, the clerk let her look at it, she decided it was what she was looking for. When filling out the forms, she asked about the various questions and I helped her fill them out and I spent the time looking at the gun.

I'm quite sure a casual observer could have easily decided she was purchasing a gun for me but that was not the case, the dealer absolutely knows that is not the case (I do basic handgun safety classes for this store), and in truth it was no one else's business what was going on). While I don't have any tattoos the length of my beard and general casualness of my dress could easily make someone believe I was not allowed to own firearms.

But on the other hand... if we (the firearms community at large) don't expend the efforts to stop illegitimate goings on then I'm sure the 99 Moms and our government agents will be more than glad to increase the restrictions. My understanding is that, absent the tattoos, a scenario just like the one described in the opening post happened not too long before the two idiots of Columbine came unglued.

migoi
 
IF I WAS a gang member, I am sure I would want my lady to be able to protect herself, and I would assist in her purchase and selection...... never mind,,,, I AM NOT A GANG member but I have assisted many ladies select and purchase firearms many times in the past.
This would be a tough call for me, but I think I would decide on the side of freedom, and keep my mouth shut.
Maybe my decision is easier because I am one of the ones that believe in the second ammendment as it is written, and I do not think an ex felon should be barred the ownership of arms.
 
"...his general appearance was pretty shady..." One of the best, most responsible, Canadian legal machinegun owning, guys I know is the president of what used to be a 'biker gang'. His word is good enough. Another guy I know gives the impression that he's 'not all there', but he has a large collection of assorted firearms he never, I say again, never, shoots.
People look at me and see a middle age lumpy guy. Until I pick up something they can't.
Appearances mean nothing. That same guy, could be the guy who steps in when somebody needs to.
 
Maybe the lady brought her scary friend along because she felt somewhat threatened by the regular neonazis, Turner diary survivalists, and jerky vendors that tend to be at gun shows. ;)
 
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