Maybe I'm wrong but this just looked bad.

[PershingRiflesC-7]

Perhaps an application of Occam's Razor would be appropriate:

"In its simplest form, Occam's Razor states that one should make no more assumptions than needed."

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor

The discussion so far centers around how many assumptions are needed in these circumstances to arrive at a correct conclusion and proceed accordingly. The original poster made one assumption, arrived at a conclusion on what he thought he observed, and yet proceeded to keep his conclusion to himself rather than bring to the attention of authorities at the show.

Others have provided more intervening assumptions they would use that still result in the same action as that taken by the original poster. So it would seem the necessary quantity and size of assumptions varies upon the individual but sometimes the outcome remains the same.

Gee, logic is fun...

 

[akanotken]

You'll eventually end up asking yourself ...

what would you do if it were you behind the table? As an observer, I think you did right. You should not have gotten involved. Chances are it WAS a straw purchase (but not 100%). But straw purchases can be almost impossible to prove.

Local shop around here has a pretty consistent policy of denying such sales. Sure they are turning away business. I think their attitude is .... they want to avoid being on the paperwork on as few firearms that end up being used in the commision of a felony as possible. I saw them refuse sale a few weeks back. Asked about it. Guy called and asked about a gun, including make and pricing. Lady and some guy show up ~30 min later. Guy helps here id the gun. Shop says "your out of luck, we can't sell you this". Couple leaves without a protest.

Straw purchase? Probably. Beyond a reasonable doubt? NO. Do I blame them? NO.

What will I do when something looking like a straw purchase tries to happen with a firearm I'm selling? Well, I'll likely refuse the sale and wait for another buyer.

 

[Byron Quick]

I know a Special Forces sergeant who has a quite impressives collection of tattoos. Celtic, tribal. None of them are military or patriotic. In civilian garb, he dresses like a biker most of the time. When he's not at the opera...which is his favorite entertainment. Speaks fluent accentless Turkish (mother was Turkish), speaks Arabic with a Turkish accent from knowledgeable reports. His capabilities, accomplishments, and predilections are quite at odds with his appearance. He's one of the most mild-mannered men I know...until you rile him. He looks like a berserk, piratical axe murderer.


One of the toughest brawlers I've ever known was a skinny, lisping, limp wristed homosexual. His hobby was luring groups of gay bashers into alleys. Making assumptions is not only stupid...it can be deadly.

 

[c_yeager]

Well, whenever i am present while a friend buys a gun i end up handling it during the paperwork.

Why is this? Its because there is a nice shiny new pistol sitting there on the counter and the owner is busy filling out a form, why would i NOT take that opportunity to play around with it?

 

[heypete]

He looks like a berserk, piratical axe murderer.

Ah, I love the word "piratical". Truly an under-used, yet still most excellent word. I offer you my thanks for using the word in this context.

I too know a Special Forces Specialist when I was still in the army last year(he WAS a sergeant...until he punched an E-6 and broke his jaw for some reason or another. Don't recall the exact circumstances, but rank set aside, the E-6 had it comin' to him...now this guy won't get about Spec-4, but such is life). Very modest guy. Tall, skinny, looked like some sort of skinny trucker guy with a confederate flag on his well-worn baseball cap. Chewed tobacco, friendly as hell, word-was-his-bond sort of guy. Got real quiet sometimes, and you didn't want to be the guy waking him up when he was asleep. You DEFINITELY didn't want to get into any sort of fight with him; he's unbelieveably skilled, fast, and terrifying when he gets riled up. Fortunately, he has a very long fuse.

Not quite piratical, but appearances were decieving.

As for the incident at the gun show, there's usually plenty of cops, ATF-types, state DOJ (at least in California) and whatnot roaming around. I'm sure they saw what was going on, and if they suspected something was amiss (while you or I may simply "feel" that something is wrong, many of them are trained in the nuances of body language and so forth to get a much better idea of when something's not quite right -- a "hunch" isn't probable cause) they would have had a talk with the buyers/dealer. While a private sale to a prohibited person may take place at a gun show, it would take some serious cojones to attempt to straw-purchase at a gun show, at the dealer, while looking rather shady, in front of a bunch of J. Edgars roaming around.

Thatguy, your observation skills are excellent, but in this case I suspect that you might be reading into it a bit much. This may not be a bad thing, as it's usually good to be over-suspicious and over-prepared in an unknown situation. Kudos for noticing a potentially bad situation.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

So Centac, how would you have handled this situation?

 

[Aikibiker]

When I first walked into the jail as a brand new trainee I passed by a gentleman in a CO's uniform with tattoos on his neck, a ponytail tucked down his collar, and a general grungy appearance. My first thought was, "One of the inmates jumped a guard and stole his uniform." I couldn't have been more wrong. This individual turned out to be a former drill sargeant in the army, airborne ranger, and had been back from the sandbox just long enough to grow that ponytail after catching an AK round. Also one heck of a guy that I still talk to whenever I get the chance.

You just can't judge by appearances. So be suspicious of everyone.

 

[thatguy]

Some are still maintaining you can't judge a book by its cover and I agree. If the man were just rough looking, or disheveled, or dirty I would not have paid any notice at all. It was the OBVIOUS gang tattoos that caught my attention. We're not talking hearts with MOM or panthers climbing the forearm. These were GANG tattoos, on his neck (which is pretty hardcore), and anyone who has these is worthy of a second look in my opinion. Are gang tattoos proof positive of current wrongdoing? Of course not. Is it suspicious? I think so and I brought it up for discussion.

The fact is we do make assumptions based on appearances. Sometimes we're wrong... sometimes we're right. Appearances are not enough for action, but I think appearances can warrant discussion.

But maybe I'm wrong?

 

[Biker]

I have to agree with you, thatguy. I know that I'm judged by my appearance and I can't really blame folks...6'1", 190 lb,long hair, beard, "outlaw" Harley. Hell, I pre-judge people also, it's natural, but I also try to give people every opportunity to prove my preconceptions wrong. Unfortunately (depending upon your pov), my 'gut' is usually right on the money.
Biker

 

[Rabid Rabbit]

I'm not allowed to buy pistols.

My wife banned me, everytime I do the company has layoffs, goes belly up, in general I become unemployed. So she buys all the handguns and I can buy all the rifles and shotguns. Can't wait to try for a machine gun.

 

[Werewolf]

Interesting responses. I expected replies condemning what may have been an illegal gun purchase and instead I get criticized for not minding my own business

The nature of the responses should not be unexpected at all. THR is a fairly libertarian group and libertarians are a generally live and let live bunch. In the absence of hard evidence of a crime it is perfectly natural for those of a libertarian bent to give the actor the benefit of the doubt and a pass.

 

[entropy]

Might have been, might not have been. I also have had a situation where a man called up and asked if we had a paticular model of pistol. I affirmed we did and about an hour later, a woman showed up with a note in a man's handwriting describing that exact type of gun. I did not sell her a gun.
The dealer apparently believed it was a legit sale. Lacking tangible evidence to the contrary, (i.e., you knew for a fact the guy was ineligable to purchase) that's all that matters.

In the absence of hard evidence of a crime it is perfectly natural for those of a libertarian bent to give the actor the benefit of the doubt and a pass.

Whereas a liberal in the presence of hard evidence of a crime will give the actor the benefit and a pass.

 

[psyopspec]

In the absence of hard evidence of a crime it is perfectly natural for those of a libertarian bent to give the actor the benefit of the doubt and a pass.

Isn't this the same as "innocent until proven otherwise?"

 

[Erik]

Straw sales.

I've known more than one parole agent who trolled gun shows for precisely this reason. A few detectives of one variety or the other, too.

Happy hunting...

 

[Werewolf]

In the absence of hard evidence of a crime it is perfectly natural for those of a libertarian bent to give the actor the benefit of the doubt and a pass.

Isn't this the same as "innocent until proven otherwise?"

Why yes - yes it is...

Imagine that...

 

[grimjaw]

But the Jeffrey Dahmer, "normal" looking type wouldn't have aroused suspicion.

My ex-girlfriend used to be a Goth-type (forgive me, I don't know what they call themselves). She hung out with the crowd full of piercings and tattoos and wore dark clothing. She has two (three?) tattoos, and a pierced tongue.

She's also ex-Navy, father is a gun owner (lots of 1911's), and she's really quite normal outside of her past appearance. She's even conservative in some of her views. She likes to punch paper with the rifles I have, and that's about it.

If you saw the two of us at a gun show, and I was holding the gun she wanted to buy (her in dark, leftover Goth duds, and me with my shaved head and my baggy cargos), you might get a little worked up. But then you wouldn't know the feds have already researched me thoroughly in the process of granting me certain clearance levels for defense contract work, and outside of speeding tickets, I've had no dealings with LE.

Sorry, judging *solely* on appearances gets me a little hot.

Very hard to judge by what you say. It might have raised the hair on the back of my neck a bit, triggered a few warning signs, but could have been completely innocent. Did you go to see the show or bust criminals?

jmm

 

[MAURICE]

Someone posted the AZ DOC website for gang tattoos. Thats a good one, as is the FL DOC website.

I reference them quite a bit at work.

 

[thorn726]

OBVIOUS gang tattoos

why do you have to say any more?

first off , the guy is already gonna have his story straight with his lady, so there is little to nothing you can do anyway.

i wouldve been more than a little suspicious- the one thing you could do is try and somehow *quietly* get the dealer's attention and let him re evaluate.

otherwise, what? yer screwed, and it screws everyone who likes guns.
adovcate checks for felons at the gate of gunshows? i dunno, there's no easy answer to me other than end gun control entirely and be ready to defend ourselves at all times

 

[Joey2]

None of your business.

 

[Molon Labe]

I think laws prohibiting "straw sales" are unconstitutional, hence I have no problem with straw sales.

 

[thatguy]

grimjaw, get mad at me if you like, but we do make judgments based on appearances. We are visual creatures and we use our eyes to evaluate situations. How we act on those evaluations are a matter of personal conscience. I maintain that anyone who wears gang tattoos is inviting us to make an assumption about them. They want us to know something about them or they wouldn't wear such identification. Am I wrong for noticing what he was screaming for us to notice?

joey2, as a matter of fact, it is my business. And yours. Possible criminal activity is every law-abiding person's business.

I am now amused by the responses telling me to mind my own business since I did exactly that. I said nothing and did nothing execpt bring it up for anonymous discussion to get others' opinions. Apparently the opinions tend to blame me for doing something wrong.

Oh well...