Members of Motorcycle Clubs in Germany to be denied gun licenses

[Snejdarek]

In a recent decision, a German court approved authorities' decision to deny firearms license to members of a motorcycle club, even though they had no prior criminal history. They may not get legal guns due to their mere association with the MC. The reason used by the authorities is that they consider them unreliable. The authorities further claim that members of MC clubs will be from now on denied licenses as a part of government's effort to combat organized crime.

Due to German gun laws it is probably safe to assume that the three men that lost the court battle wanted to get guns for sport shooting or hunting purposes, as self defense/concealed carry is next to impossible to get in Germany.

Needless to say that policy like this is what forces large portions of populations to black market, leading to its huge extent in countries like France or Belgium, where the attackers on Charlie Hebdo offices bought their AKs and RPG on a train station with money they got from a consumer loan.

 

[barnbwt]

Ban Motorcycles Now, for the children, huh? Having so restricted guns, I guess they have no choice but to go after the next object they happen to associate with criminals in their pointless quest for Utopia.

TCB

 

[Shovelhead]

A google search shows listings for several manufacturer based "motorcycle clubs" (not exactly your 1%ers) in addition to the Gremium, 81, Banditos, etc.
The German government seems to have adpopted the California-style "Broad Brush" tactic of criminalizing ALL, instead of targeting the individuals breaking the law. Go figure...........

 

[Drail]

It's all Marlon Brando and Lee Marvin's fault. I'll bet that movie would be fun to watch with dubbed in German.

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

I was a member of a European based motorcycle club for about 8 years, do you suppose that ruling will jump the pond? It would be interesting to know how they are able to determine you are a member of a social organization. Do they license and monitor everything?

 

[Snejdarek]

I guess they do extensive background check on any applicants. I know that in Slovakia they send cops to talk to your family, neighbors, coworkers when you ask for CC permit. Not in my country, but I can imagine it may be similar in Germany even when you want to do just some plinking on a range.

I wonder where is the red line for them between the criminal bikers and normal bikers. For example the Prague Harley Davidson club is the oldest HD club in the world with some of their members having been in the Czech parliament. Would those be also "unreliable" under German guidelines?

 

[bannockburn]

Snejdarek

So apparently in Germany one is guilty by association, if only for belonging to a motorcycle club. Is there a higher court that this decision could be appealed to?

 

[splithoof]

As was said prior in Europe: "Arbeit macht frei". i hope restrictions on gun ownership based on other affiliations stay over there, and not here.

 

[smalls]

It's Europe, what do you expect?

 

[Lycidas Janwor]

Snejdarek

So apparently in Germany one is guilty by association, if only for belonging to a motorcycle club. Is there a higher court that this decision could be appealed to?

So if I was a German, living in Germany, and riding my new tricked-out BMW motorcycle, I'd start a club where all you had to do to be a member, is not be a member.

 

[HoosierQ]

Germany isn't America. They do things their way. That would be unconstitutional on it's face here. And yes, we do have some unconstitutional laws here too of course.

 

[Snejdarek]

Is there a higher court that this decision could be appealed to?

I believe that this was a local court decision and I suppose they will run it through the whole system all the way to constitutional court. I kind of hope they will because the ruling will be interesting. Also, the German constitutional court's rulings are usually well known also in other European countries, it does have a good reputation. Of course not when it comes to guns.

We had a similar case in the Czech Republic a couple of years ago. But the reason of denial was criminal conviction. I guess you can say by your gut feeling whether or not the Czech constitutional court decided in favor of ex-convicts' gun rights.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Why stop with MC's. I vote to include quads and ATV's also. They can't be trusted.

 

[Kabal]

Those bikers are members of the Bandidos.
As far as I know, they didn't want to have guns for sport shooting, but a license to carry blank guns. Until a few years ago, all adults were allowed to carry blank guns, but now, you need a license called "kleiner Waffenschein", which roughly translates into "small CC permit" (which is usually just a formality and easy to get).

However, German law demands that everyone who wants to carry a blank gun, just like every owner of a "real" gun, be "reliable".

It's a way of keeping certain people from owning guns, even if they don't have a criminal record (e.g. Neo-Nazis).
In this case, judges decided that members of 1% MCs such as the Bandidos and Hell's Angels are unreliable because they are (according to the judges) more likely to engage in violent/criminal behaviour.

I guess they do extensive background check on any applicants. I know that in Slovakia they send cops to talk to your family, neighbors, coworkers when you ask for CC permit. Not in my country, but I can imagine it may be similar in Germany even when you want to do just some plinking on a range.

I wonder where is the red line for them between the criminal bikers and normal bikers. For example the Prague Harley Davidson club is the oldest HD club in the world with some of their members having been in the Czech parliament. Would those be also "unreliable" under German guidelines?

Yes, there are background checks, but no one in your family/neighborhood gets questioned or anything.

The ruling seems to apply only to certain 1%ers, but there is no visible red line, since being "unreliable" is not a very clear-cut concept.

So apparently in Germany one is guilty by association, if only for belonging to a motorcycle club. Is there a higher court that this decision could be appealed to?

They already appealed to a federal court, and it confirmed the decision.

 

[Snejdarek]

As far as I know, they didn't want to have guns for sport shooting, but a license to carry blank guns.

Please excuse the ignorance of someone who lives just behind the border and carries a high capacity 9mil gun frequently, but what is a blank gun? What is it good for?

It's a way of keeping certain people from owning guns, even if they don't have a criminal record (e.g. Neo-Nazis).

From what I know there quite few neonazis with guns in Germany, especially in Saxony, most often on hunting permit.

Czech neonazis have access to firearms as anyone else, as long as they can keep their criminal record clean. We are yet to have a racist murder in the country committed with a legally owned firearm.

I think that letting them have firearms has exactly the opposite effect. Once they realize they can lose the license and guns for repeated misdemeanors or any criminal activity, they come to conclusion they need to choose between active (=criminal) neonazi life or access to firearms.

 

[Kabal]

Please excuse the ignorance of someone who lives just behind the border and carries a high capacity 9mil gun frequently, but what is a blank gun? What is it good for?

I was talking about gas pistols/revolvers. They can be fun on New Year's Eve.
Some use them for self-defense with CS / pepper loads:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwF1rjk5vk0

Of course, a spray is far superior. (BTW, pepper is only allowed to be used against animals in Germany.)

From what I know there quite few neonazis with guns in Germany, especially in Saxony, most often on hunting permit.

That might be true. You can't read peoples' thoughts, so it's rather difficult to prevent them from owning guns based on their political affiliation.
Whenever you read about "German police confiscating Neo-Nazi arsenal" and things like that, you should check the pictures, though. Most I've seen were just airsoft / demilled guns. But well, our press ist just as gun savvy as American mainstream media.

 

[Snejdarek]

I was talking about gas pistols/revolvers.

Oh, I see. Those are unregulated here (18yo+ legal). This is what criminals here usually have in hand when they stick up a bank or post office. And they know that it is time to throw it away and run when some law abiding citizen pulls up their piece.

Sure, you can't bet on the bad guy having only it. But the statistical odds are very much in favor of a bad guy shooting gas against good guy's lead here. Sometimes gun control works for the good guys.

BTW, pepper is only allowed to be used against animals in Germany.

I am well aware of that. Year ago we went for a trip to Berlin with my GF. I did a bit of research on what self-defense measures I may have. Weird thing carrying 9mil in a city with very low crime rate (Prague) and going armless to a city with much higher criminality. I learned a new word thanks to that: "Todschläger" (i.e. death beater = telescopic baton). That is my standard carry when I don't have gun on me. Jail time in Germany for simple possession.

One more question. Is it federal thing that cops may check safe storage even if you have a single semi-auto pistol, or is that only in Berlin?

BTW, we have our fair share of biker gangs, including Hells Angels, but I have never heard of any violence other than biker on biker pub brawls.

Just once there was this incident with Austrian bikers who attacked some guys in car that flipped them off. They damaged the car and pulled knives on its occupants. Then they were extremely surprised that the first two cops that got there quite fast immediately drew their guns ready to make some holes into them. I mean, what did they expect? What would Austrian cops do? Ask them nicely to please refrain from attacking people with knives?
Videos (in Czech): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdQRD3UbcRI |||| http://zpravy.idnes.cz/motorkari-prepadli-auto-0wh-/krimi.aspx?c=A130516_115604_domaci_mt

 

[Midwest]

One more question. Is it federal thing that cops may check safe storage even if you have a single semi-auto pistol, or is that only in Berlin?

Here in the U.S. they normally don't check safe storage except for New York State and that is only if you have over a certain amount of pistols. Then yes...they inspect your safe.

http://nyfirearms.com/forums/laws-p...-county-after-5-handguns-home-inspection.html
.

 

[Kabal]

I am well aware of that. Year ago we went for a trip to Berlin with my GF. I did a bit of research on what self-defense measures I may have. Weird thing carrying 9mil in a city with very low crime rate and going armless to a city with much higher criminality. I learned a new word thanks to that: "Todschläger" (i.e. death beater = telescopic baton). That is my standard carry when I don't have gun on me.

Be careful with the term "Totschläger" - it designates a forbidden item here in Germany!
Totschlägers are usually bags of leather with an iron ball sewn into them on one side. Certain flexible batons (also referred to as "Stahlrute") are also banned.

Apparently, there are those who refer to regular telescopic batons as "Totschläger", but this is false (very much like many people can't tell apart a mace and a flail). Your telescopic baton (unless flexible) is legal according to German law. However, since 2008, you are not allowed to carry it outside your property.

One more question. Is it federal thing that cops may check safe storage even if you have a single semi-auto pistol, or is that only in Berlin?

Inspections are a federal thing. They were introduced a few years ago after a school shooting. Normally, they aren't conducted by police though - at least not here in Bavaria.

 

[Snejdarek]

Inspections are a federal thing. They were introduced a few years ago after a school shooting. Normally, they aren't conducted by police though - at least not here in Bavaria.

Who does the inspection then?

Here the state police are the only people who can ask me for my concealed carry permit on the street. If you ever come to Prague, you will mostly see the municipal police on the streets, but I could just flip them off (literally) in case they would see me printing and wanted to have a talk about it.

 

[Thermactor]

Here in the U.S. they normally don't check safe storage except for New York State and that is only if you have over a certain amount of pistols. Then yes...they inspect your safe.

http://nyfirearms.com/forums/laws-p...-county-after-5-handguns-home-inspection.html
.

he was asking about Germany
And NY isn't in the U.S.

 

[d2wing]

I know a guy that comes over from Sweden and interviews American gang members and writes articles on them and also specific choppers. His American contact is a friend of mine. Like many Americans, many Europeans admire and imitate well know outlaw biker gangs. Like Americans most of them just like the style, not the actual violence and crime. As a long time biker myself, not all clubs are really outlaw, and some outlaws gang members are pretty normal, but then some are not. It is understandable that lawmakers want to discriminate against the innocent as well as those not so. But it is not right. And I don't like it. I ride a Harley but I do not imitate an outlaw. That can lead to a bad case of asking for trouble especially around real bad bikers.

 

[Kabal]

Who does the inspection then?

Here the state police are the only people who can ask me for my concealed carry permit on the street. If you ever come to Prague, you will mostly see the municipal police on the streets, but I could just flip them off (literally) in case they would see me printing and wanted to have a talk about it.

Here in Germany, every shooter is registered with some sort of local administrative office, usually called "Landratsamt" for rural areas and "Ordnungsamt" in cities. These offices are normally housed in large buildings and consist of many departments, dealing with everything from waste disposal to car registration.
One department deals with everything firearms-related. In my case, this department consists of a lady and her assistant. Every time I buy a gun, I have to visit this lady to get my gun registered (just like everyone else who lives in my area). I’m not sure if she is a civil servant or a regular employee, but it’s her who can do unannounced inspections. I think that she usually picks people whom she suspects of being negligent in storing their firearms (especially older people), but theoretically, she has the right to inspect the gun safe of everyone whose guns are registered with her department. If someone doesn’t let her in or causes trouble, she can get the police to assist her.

 

[Snejdarek]

You are telling my some old woman may at any time come to your home unannounced, uninvited, and come to conclusion that your storage is not good enough and take your guns away?

I just feel so sorry for you.

A historical parallel comes to mind that I won't use since I don't want to sound offensive...

 

[Teachu2]

oops.....