wally
Member
I'll trade my Springfield for any Kimber, even this one!
--wally.
MIM Kimbers? Naw, you don't say. [PICS]
- Thread starter esheato
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I'll trade my Springfield for any Kimber, even this one!
--wally.
There is a scary bit of truth to this. Im of the mind that if a gun costs over $1000 dollars it better be DAMN near perfect in every respect. A thousand bucks is a heck of a lot of money to spend on a tool. It better perform at a level that leaves $300 guns looking like crud.
armoredman
Member
If you want sintered metal parts, save your bucks and buy a Century S.A.M. Commodore 1911 clone from the Phillipenes.....heck of a lot cheaper...
It's the AMMO...
Oops, sorry- wrong brand alibi.
Folks, if WE keep buying crap like this because it looks cool on a magazine cover, THEY are going to keep making it and selling it for all they can get. What's really sad is that people are betting their lives on it.
Oops, sorry- wrong brand alibi.
Folks, if WE keep buying crap like this because it looks cool on a magazine cover, THEY are going to keep making it and selling it for all they can get. What's really sad is that people are betting their lives on it.
shooter.45
Member
Thats what happens when you buy a Kimber. Thats why I got rid of all mine. Now just own a S&W 1911, Springfield and soon a Sig 1911. And besides there cust. service stinks..
wally
Member
Which was the point of my last post, did it really put the gun out of action? If it wasn't at the range but under stress would it have been noticed until time for the third mag after you got the click instead of BOOM because the slide didn't lock back when the second mag ran dry? I never count on the slide to lock back -- too easy to have the off hand interfere, which is why I have a poor opinion of extended slide releases and safeties as they make such easier to do.
The extractor in my pre series 80 Colt broke while shooting my first CHL qualifier -- I was able to shake out the empties and single load enough rounds after it happened to still shoot a good enough score, having scored clean up to that point sure helped, but if I'd stopped shooting when it broke I'd not have passed. I chose this old Colt as it was what I shot the most and had been utterly reliable up 'til then.
I'm no Kimber apologist, my two are older, back when they still made them good, it would seem they are living off their past reputation and now putting style over substance.
The guys with the horse on the logo seem to have gone this way too awhile back, seems they've been doing right lately, let's hope Kimber quickly sees the error of their ways. I bet one less slick ad would more than cover the cost differential on a mil spec slide stop vs this crap for a years worth of sales!
People should print the photo and mail it to Kimber with a letter saying to the effect: "I saw your ad in {insert Your Favorite Gun Rag here} and was thinking about buying a Kimber {insert model here} until I saw this!"
--wally.
I thought I 'read' that Kimber started producing their own MIM parts.
Way back when Kimber acquired their good reputation, I suspect they were buying MIM parts from a experienced producer...knowledge and quality control are everything.
I could be wrong however.
Stuff happens, but I think a consumer got quite a gun in the $500 area...back in the mid 90's. Now, from what I see, they are in the $650 range with a questionable firing pin safety and extractor.
Most of the Kimbers I see on the shelf are in the $800-$1100 range. It's okay to "push" the higher price models, I'd do the same, but I don't think the value is there at those prices. You can buy production guns with better parts now in those price ranges.
I think Kimber lost it's value or "edge" on the other producers. They could become the next "Colt" if there are not careful, the old Colt anyway.
Way back when Kimber acquired their good reputation, I suspect they were buying MIM parts from a experienced producer...knowledge and quality control are everything.
I could be wrong however.
Stuff happens, but I think a consumer got quite a gun in the $500 area...back in the mid 90's. Now, from what I see, they are in the $650 range with a questionable firing pin safety and extractor.
Most of the Kimbers I see on the shelf are in the $800-$1100 range. It's okay to "push" the higher price models, I'd do the same, but I don't think the value is there at those prices. You can buy production guns with better parts now in those price ranges.
I think Kimber lost it's value or "edge" on the other producers. They could become the next "Colt" if there are not careful, the old Colt anyway.
1911WB
Member
Replace MIM parts
Because of all the posts like this about the negative qualities of MIM parts I replaced several of the critical parts on my series I Kimber GM: extractor (Wilson "Bulletproof"); slidestop ( old Colt); & firing pin (Wilson). The pistol has always worked fine, but now I have more confidence in its durability. BTW has anyone used CMC slidestops & how are they?
Because of all the posts like this about the negative qualities of MIM parts I replaced several of the critical parts on my series I Kimber GM: extractor (Wilson "Bulletproof"); slidestop ( old Colt); & firing pin (Wilson). The pistol has always worked fine, but now I have more confidence in its durability. BTW has anyone used CMC slidestops & how are they?
Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 4,925
Actually, it is a solution to a few very specific problems:
-How to make a 1911 with a barrel <4.25" work
-How to reduce muzzle flip and felt recoil
Well, since almost everything CMC makes is MIM...
As you can see from the photos, the slide stop was in two pieces. Both pieces were loose on the side of the frame and could almost be fully rotated by just "twirling" it with your fingertips.
I locked back the slide for the purpose of the photography. I basically jammed the end of the slide stop in the notch in the slide.
As far as operation of the pistol, I'm sure if it would have continued firing, but for how long...I don't know. He stopped shooting as soon as he realized it was broken. In reality, I'm sure he popped off a few rounds before he noticed it. I was busy shooting rifles so I wasn't watching him shoot.
Ed
I locked back the slide for the purpose of the photography. I basically jammed the end of the slide stop in the notch in the slide.
As far as operation of the pistol, I'm sure if it would have continued firing, but for how long...I don't know. He stopped shooting as soon as he realized it was broken. In reality, I'm sure he popped off a few rounds before he noticed it. I was busy shooting rifles so I wasn't watching him shoot.
Ed
Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 4,925
-No. Eclipse Pro = 4". 5" Eclipse models have bushing barrels.
-No. That's why bull barrels are illegal in certain shooting sports (e.g. IDPA), they provide a competitive advantage due to reduced muzzle jump, allowing faster follow-up shots than guns with conventional barrels. Conversely, that's why bull barrels are so popular in USPSA, where they are legal.
bountyhunter
member
A wise man once said: MIM is not a process well suited to thin pieces which could suffer catastrophic failure if an air void or grain defect is present. Actually, I said it but it was one of the wiser things I've said.
Frohickey
Member
to Wally
MIM parts have been used for a while, and even if SB1805 was passed, things like this would not save Kimber from lawsuits due to poor manufacture of guns, only the misuse of guns by people not under Kimber's control.
I have a Kimber Eclipse Ultra II as well. It had 2 FTF (click, no bang) out of 49 rounds. Needless to say, its a range gun.
MIM parts have been used for a while, and even if SB1805 was passed, things like this would not save Kimber from lawsuits due to poor manufacture of guns, only the misuse of guns by people not under Kimber's control.
I have a Kimber Eclipse Ultra II as well. It had 2 FTF (click, no bang) out of 49 rounds. Needless to say, its a range gun.
Sheesh, hasn't anyone ever see a broken gun before?
I'm sure I'll get flamed, but there are a lot more working Kimbers out there than there are Kimbers with broken slide stops.
Does it suck that he paid what he paid and had his gun break? Yes. . . Should a $1K plus gun break that soon? NO.
In this day of digital cameras and the internet, you'll see pics of broken guns of every make and model. No reason to go into hysterics over it. . .
Flame away. . .
Shake
I'm sure I'll get flamed, but there are a lot more working Kimbers out there than there are Kimbers with broken slide stops.
Does it suck that he paid what he paid and had his gun break? Yes. . . Should a $1K plus gun break that soon? NO.
In this day of digital cameras and the internet, you'll see pics of broken guns of every make and model. No reason to go into hysterics over it. . .
Flame away. . .
Shake
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
MIM oops!
Ya'll are killin me!
Gewehr98 said:
Boy, I'd like to hear from those here on THR... Who worship at the altar of MIM
Me too...One in particular. A few years ago, Kimbers were hot around here.
As a result, I've got a box fulla parts that look like the one here. I was
gonna offer to send him the whole box for inspection and analysis, but when I found out what it would cost to ship the sucker, I let it slide.
---------------------------------
Blades
On that broken link, that was Colt's failure to check the barrel linkdown function/timing before it left the factory. Impact surface too far rearward...link stops the barrel...stretched/broken link. Probably stressed
the slidestop pin too. ANY link would have eventually broken under those conditions.
---------------------------------
Wally
Too bad ya didn't get on THR about that Colt slidestop. It's a
5-minute fix. I've walked more than a few through it on KIMBER slidestops that did the exact same thing. If you've still got it, I'll give ya 25 bucks for it.
MLC...ROFL! You could call it "The Kimber Club"...pun intended.
Jim Keenan! I'm surprised! The sweet voice at the service desk will NOT
say it's supposed to be that way. She'll say that it was probably because the guy didn't grip the pistol correctly.
Wally...again...
The pistol would PROBABLY continue to function, and the only issue would be that it wouldn't lock the slide back...??!!?? And that means what...that
because it MIGHT work, that it's not really that big of an issue?
Tell me you're kiddin, Wally...
------------------------------
Fuff...
If they'd listened to me, you and Jim Keenan...but that's water under the bridge
----------------------------
Yeah...Steel parts break too, given enough use, but the thing I've noticed
is that a given MIM part is about 50 times more likely to break under normal use...I've got enough of the stuff in slidestops alone to make 2 or 3
complete pistols.
Flame suit on...Let'er rip!
I do not like MIM and I do not TRUST MIM, Sam I am...
Chitty-Chitty, Bang *Crunch-Snap*
Tuner
Ya'll are killin me!
Gewehr98 said:
Boy, I'd like to hear from those here on THR... Who worship at the altar of MIM
Me too...One in particular. A few years ago, Kimbers were hot around here.
As a result, I've got a box fulla parts that look like the one here. I was
gonna offer to send him the whole box for inspection and analysis, but when I found out what it would cost to ship the sucker, I let it slide.
---------------------------------
Blades
On that broken link, that was Colt's failure to check the barrel linkdown function/timing before it left the factory. Impact surface too far rearward...link stops the barrel...stretched/broken link. Probably stressed
the slidestop pin too. ANY link would have eventually broken under those conditions.
---------------------------------
Wally
Too bad ya didn't get on THR about that Colt slidestop. It's a
5-minute fix. I've walked more than a few through it on KIMBER slidestops that did the exact same thing. If you've still got it, I'll give ya 25 bucks for it.
MLC...ROFL!
You could call it "The Kimber Club"...pun intended.Jim Keenan! I'm surprised! The sweet voice at the service desk will NOT
say it's supposed to be that way. She'll say that it was probably because the guy didn't grip the pistol correctly.
Wally...again...
The pistol would PROBABLY continue to function, and the only issue would be that it wouldn't lock the slide back...??!!?? And that means what...that
because it MIGHT work, that it's not really that big of an issue?
Tell me you're kiddin, Wally...
------------------------------
Fuff...
If they'd listened to me, you and Jim Keenan...but that's water under the bridge
----------------------------
Yeah...Steel parts break too, given enough use, but the thing I've noticed
is that a given MIM part is about 50 times more likely to break under normal use...I've got enough of the stuff in slidestops alone to make 2 or 3
complete pistols.
Flame suit on...Let'er rip!
I do not like MIM and I do not TRUST MIM, Sam I am...
Chitty-Chitty, Bang *Crunch-Snap*
Tuner
fastbolt
Member
There's MIM, and then there's MIM ...
Just like there's Forged, and then there's forged ...
And there's Cast, and then there's cast ...
There's quality, and then there's ...
Well, you get the idea ...
In recent months I've had a lot of opportunity to practice with, or just shoot, quite a number of different 1911's ... mine (naturally), as well as pistols owned by other people, and many agency-owned guns. These 1911's have included a SW1911, a lot of Wilsons (KZ's & CQ's), a few Colts and a couple of Kimbers (metal & plastic) ...
The metal framed Wilsons have seemed fine, as has the SW1911.
I remain unimpressed with Kimber ... and wouldn't accept a KZ45 as a gift.
I handled and shot the SW1911 before it had the firing pin safety plunger Recall modification, and afterwards ... and it functioned very well in all instances. It's a VERY accurate pistol, and I have to say the plunger modification makes a lot of sense.
I think that Wilsons are over priced.
I'd like to own a SW1911 of my own, and it's been a long time since a new 1911 has made me feel like buying one NIB. The quality of the machining, and general fit & finish of the pistol, is simply amazing for the money. It's about time ... and the Lifetime Warranty by one of the MAJOR firearms manufacturers isn't a bad thing to have, either. S&W Customer Service has a good reputation again ... I was talking about general customer service issues with a stocking L/E dealer a while back, and even though he's a L/E dealer for Glock, he said that S&W has the best customer service in the industry. He'd probably know, as he's handled firearms for most manufacturers over the years ...
I haven't handled and shot a Springfield for at least a couple of years, so I don't have any recent experience ... but I wasn't all that impressed with the last one I borrowed to shoot.
Just like there's Forged, and then there's forged ...
And there's Cast, and then there's cast ...
There's quality, and then there's ...
Well, you get the idea ...
In recent months I've had a lot of opportunity to practice with, or just shoot, quite a number of different 1911's ... mine (naturally), as well as pistols owned by other people, and many agency-owned guns. These 1911's have included a SW1911, a lot of Wilsons (KZ's & CQ's), a few Colts and a couple of Kimbers (metal & plastic) ...
The metal framed Wilsons have seemed fine, as has the SW1911.
I remain unimpressed with Kimber ... and wouldn't accept a KZ45 as a gift.
I handled and shot the SW1911 before it had the firing pin safety plunger Recall modification, and afterwards ... and it functioned very well in all instances. It's a VERY accurate pistol, and I have to say the plunger modification makes a lot of sense.
I think that Wilsons are over priced.
I'd like to own a SW1911 of my own, and it's been a long time since a new 1911 has made me feel like buying one NIB. The quality of the machining, and general fit & finish of the pistol, is simply amazing for the money. It's about time ... and the Lifetime Warranty by one of the MAJOR firearms manufacturers isn't a bad thing to have, either. S&W Customer Service has a good reputation again ... I was talking about general customer service issues with a stocking L/E dealer a while back, and even though he's a L/E dealer for Glock, he said that S&W has the best customer service in the industry. He'd probably know, as he's handled firearms for most manufacturers over the years ...
I haven't handled and shot a Springfield for at least a couple of years, so I don't have any recent experience ... but I wasn't all that impressed with the last one I borrowed to shoot.
cratz2
Member
Instead of saying. 'this shouldn't happen...', maybe we should say 'If you're going to pay $1,052 for a gun, maybe it should have these certain features...' including several forged parts.
Honestly... I'm a 1911 guy... I've always loved them and I still respect them as the best defensive handgun available... if they are built to spec. I've generally had very good luck with 1911s and I've never had a single part actually break but I've seen enough to know that if I were going to buy a 1911 of the shelf today and carry it as my primary carry gun, a couple hundred bucks and a brief stay with a decent gunsmith should just be part of the deal... not because of an inferior design, but because of cost cutting that goes on across the board.
wally
Member
1911Tuner,
I chucked the slide stop after I filed a bit off the inside face to no avail.
Comparing it to the one in the Norinco, the channel that the slide moves thru was cut too wide towards the out side and the lever was too thin towards the inside allowing the whole thing to move in too far so it'd catch the nose of a round. I tried bending the flat lever part hoping to "take up the slack" but to no avail. Comparing it to the Norinco one that worked made it clear the part was pretty hopelessly out of spec. A gun show replacement I picked out of a parts bin has been problem free ever since.
As to asking if the gun still was functioning, no I'm not kidding, makes a world of difference if the gun is kaput until its fixed or if it can continue shooting until its more "convenient" to repair. In terms of a range gun, its a minor annoyance in the grand scheme of things and a cheap and easy to replace part. But for SD gun, out of operation vs. minor bobble on the *second* reload could make a world of difference.
I'm not trying to justify the use of a substandard part, just curious as to if its really a critical failure, I mean if the first 7 or 8 shots didn't solve the problem, and the first reload is unaffected, will not having the slide locked back for the second and any subsequent reloads realistically be a senerio to be worrying about? It pretty rare I conceal gun and a spare mag, let alone two or more extras. Generally I opt for a slightly larger gun and forget about the spare mag.
--wally.
I chucked the slide stop after I filed a bit off the inside face to no avail.
Comparing it to the one in the Norinco, the channel that the slide moves thru was cut too wide towards the out side and the lever was too thin towards the inside allowing the whole thing to move in too far so it'd catch the nose of a round. I tried bending the flat lever part hoping to "take up the slack" but to no avail. Comparing it to the Norinco one that worked made it clear the part was pretty hopelessly out of spec. A gun show replacement I picked out of a parts bin has been problem free ever since.
As to asking if the gun still was functioning, no I'm not kidding, makes a world of difference if the gun is kaput until its fixed or if it can continue shooting until its more "convenient" to repair. In terms of a range gun, its a minor annoyance in the grand scheme of things and a cheap and easy to replace part. But for SD gun, out of operation vs. minor bobble on the *second* reload could make a world of difference.
I'm not trying to justify the use of a substandard part, just curious as to if its really a critical failure, I mean if the first 7 or 8 shots didn't solve the problem, and the first reload is unaffected, will not having the slide locked back for the second and any subsequent reloads realistically be a senerio to be worrying about? It pretty rare I conceal gun and a spare mag, let alone two or more extras. Generally I opt for a slightly larger gun and forget about the spare mag.
--wally.
WonderNine
member
About a couple months ago there was some pics of a Kimber grip safety broken in half on 1911 forum.
I'm not sure, but I think that Kimbers are made out of the finest quality spray painted Georgia pine.
Or maybe forged from salt licks.
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