Minnesota couple pleads guilty to straw purchasing 97 guns

[jmorris]

A lot of dumb stuff coming out of MN these days.

There is a lot of dumb stuff coming out of a lot of States these days. I hope I am long gone before they ruin the one I live in.

Not a matter of “if”, you can’t stop cancer if you allow it to propagate to any and all areas of the body and people seem like kids these days. Mess up their “room” and instead of cleaning it up, they just go to another room in the house and trash it…

 

[Airborne Falcon]

I stand corrected. I did get the humor, just forgot the intimate details of the movie. Been 2 1/2 decades since I saw it. After the dust cleared in my head and I thought hard about it, I remembered wondering why they called it "Fargo". It was the Brainerd Mn Police Chief doing the investigation. The deep in debt Car dealership owner doing the defrauding and hiring the kidnappers of his wife was in Minneapolis and everyone talked like they were from Canada. It also was claimed the movie was based on real life events, but none of them actually happened in Minnesota. No wonder I'm confused!

It always confused me too Brother. I actually had to do a deep dive into that movie after seeing it four or five times and reading the teaser about it being based upon real life events. I was obsessed with the roots of the movie. They played fast and loose with the "actual events" claim for sure.

Artfully done movie. I spent some time up there with a buddy of mine, who I was serving with at the time, back in the 70s whose Dad lived up there working a pipeline before moving to Alaska to work that pipeline. Then another close friend of mine, now a multi gazzilionaire, worked up there for a big packaging company back in the 80s and 90s ... I used to go up there all the time to bass fish with him before he moved to Atlanta and started his own company. I loved it up there.

What always kept it (the location of the movie) in perspective for me were two scenes ... the money exchange scene on the top floor of the parking garage ... and the Paul Bunyon statue.

It's hard to believe just how much Minnesota has changed ... it was fast, felt like overnight. Argggghhhhh I hate even thinking about it. What a once GREAT place it was.

PS: The deep-in-debt guy wasn't actually the dealership owner. The dealership owner was his father in law ... the one killed on top of the parking garage. I think I've seen that movie too many times ... know every line by heart. The accents always slay me. Especially the two hookers at the truck stop.

When I read the OP's original article about the Minnesota couple and the 97 straw purchases ... in my head I read it with the Minnesota accent. Lol

 

[Navy87Guy]

The devil is in the details, but this sounds like they were running a business. It seems weird they would have 97 strangers come and ask them to buy a gun for them as a true straw purchase. I wonder where the Feds draw the line between a true straw purchase and someone acting as an FFL without a license. That sounds like what they were doing…buying bulk guns and selling them for an extra $100 with no questions asked. It probably doesn’t matter what they finally nail them for…more of a curiosity thing on my part.

You also have to wonder at a system that doesn’t flag 30+ transactions in one month (assuming they each bought 31 of the 62 guns) for a non-FFL. Good thing the ATF has all of that data available! Instead they spend their time making citizens wait 8 months for approval on a suppressor while clowns are out there flooding the streets with guns!

 

[SC45-70]

When I read the OP's original article about the Minnesota couple and the 97 straw purchases ... in my head I read it with the Minnesota accent. Lol

You bet cha!

S45-70

 

[Airborne Falcon]

You bet cha!

SC45-70

 

[JEBruns]

When I read the OP's original article about the Minnesota couple and the 97 straw purchases ... in my head I read it with the Minnesota accent. Lol

The accent in that movie was NOT a MN accent. I lived there when that movie came out, had for a long time. I could not even get through the movie because of the horrible job they did butchering the accent and mannerisms. I still have never seen the whole movie.

 

[Pew-Pew]

Wow, pieces of work

 

[dogtown tom]

...... I wonder where the Feds draw the line between a true straw purchase and someone acting as an FFL without a license.

There doesn't need to be a line as both violate federal law.
When a buyer/transferee signs the Form 4473, they certify under penalty of law that their answers are true, correct and complete. If they are not the actual buyer/transferee and acquiring the firearm on behalf of another person they cannot truthfully answer yes to Question 21a. Note that a bonafide gift is an exception.

Engaging in the business of dealing in firearms means the person devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms. Whether you actually make a profit does not matter.

You also have to wonder at a system that doesn’t flag 30+ transactions in one month (assuming they each bought 31 of the 62 guns) for a non-FFL.

Tell me more about this "system" you think can flag transactions. (hint, there isn't one)

Good thing the ATF has all of that data available!

You got some reading to do. ATF doesn't get told when someone buys a gun. You could buy twenty guns today and ATF won't have a clue.

Instead they spend their time making citizens wait 8 months for approval on a suppressor while clowns are out there flooding the streets with guns!

Blame Congress.

 

[Navy87Guy]

There doesn't need to be a line as both violate federal law.
When a buyer/transferee signs the Form 4473, they certify under penalty of law that their answers are true, correct and complete. If they are not the actual buyer/transferee and acquiring the firearm on behalf of another person they cannot truthfully answer yes to Question 21a. Note that a bonafide gift is an exception.

Engaging in the business of dealing in firearms means the person devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms. Whether you actually make a profit does not matter.

There’s a subtle difference between buying and reselling - and buying for someone else. That’s why I said the devil was in the details. If they just had a set up where they were buying (this, the actual purchaser) and reselling for a profit, then that’s different than buying for someone who isn’t eligible. The difference between knowing the final purchaser up front versus selling to them later.

 

[SC45-70]

View attachment 1048871

Ya! Dem dare guys gu-na spend some time in da pokey don't cha no, you bet cha.
SC45-70

 

[redcon1]

but we just have to close that gun show loophole to keep guns out of the hands of criminals! Riiiight.

 

[Airborne Falcon]

The accent in that movie was NOT a MN accent. I lived there when that movie came out, had for a long time. I could not even get through the movie because of the horrible job they did butchering the accent and mannerisms. I still have never seen the whole movie.

Creative license ... Hollywood has been butchering the accents of Southerners since movie pictures were invented. Robert De Niro in Cape Fear for existence ... and sheeesh, Hollywood rarely gets gun play right in the movies.

It takes complete suspension of disbelief to get through most movies these days. If I couldn't watch a movie because of poor improper gun function or gun play errors ... I couldn't watch pretty-much any movie. Gunsmoke would be unwatchable with all the 50 yard fast draws and the 20 shot revolvers. Same goes for movies that portray Southerners as redneck slovenly racist inbred hicks ... they're legion.

I wouldn't take Fargo too personally friend. I thought the scene at the wood chipper, with her pulling her service revolver, was pretty good.

 

[lemaymiami]

It took a few years but I finally figured out why movies aren't as much fun as when I was younger... I've learned too much over the years about how people actually behave and I made a point of learning as much as I could about how things actually go down in real life...

What we all need is to be 15 again when we could watch in wonder as John Wayne swaggered out in front of the bad guys and made it all look easy... Years and years later we made a point when teaching tactics that John Wayne was long dead - and if you stood out in the open exchanging shots with an armed opponent... you'd soon be joining him..

 

[dogtown tom]

There’s a subtle difference between buying and reselling - and buying for someone else.

Not really. In both cases they would be lying on the Form 4473.

That’s why I said the devil was in the details.

Which is why they are indicted.

If they just had a set up where they were buying (this, the actual purchaser) and reselling for a profit, then that’s different than buying for someone who isn’t eligible.

Huh?
ANYTIME you are not the actual buyer/transferee of the firearm and you sign that Form 4473 you violate federal law. It matters not one bit whether the actual buyer is/is not a prohibited person. The ONLY exception is the acquisition of a firearm as a bonafide gift.

"someone who isn't eligible" has nothing to do with anything in regards to the felony committed by the straw purchaser.

The difference between knowing the final purchaser up front versus selling to them later.

If you acquire a firearm with the intent to resell, ATF considers that as engaging in the business. There is no minimum number if firearms nor minimum time period one must wait in order to resell.

 

[Navy87Guy]

If you acquire a firearm with the intent to resell, ATF considers that as engaging in the business. There is no minimum number if firearms nor minimum time period one must wait in order to resell.

That’s my point…if someone buys a dozen guns with the intent of reselling them then they are violating the laws regarding an FFL. That’s subtlely (but importantly) different than buying the gun on behalf of someone else (a straw purchase). It’s the foreknowledge of who the final holder will be that makes the difference. They aren’t buying on behalf of someone if they’re just trying to circumvent the FFL requirement.

It’s really just a point of curiosity…but there is clearly a legal distinction. I just wondered why the Feds chose to prosecute one way over the other.

 

[dogtown tom]

That’s my point…if someone buys a dozen guns with the intent of reselling them then they are violating the laws regarding an FFL.

Thats what I wrote above.

That’s subtlely (but importantly) different than buying the gun on behalf of someone else (a straw purchase).

No sir, BOTH transactions are straw purchases. BTW...there is no crime of "straw purchase". The violation of federal law is falsifying a federal document....ie lying on the Form 4473.

Now, if the defendants were buying guns from other nonlicenseesthey wouldn't be falsifying federal forms. Typically ATF will issue a warning letter telling the person to get an FFL.
This is a good read:https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download

It’s the foreknowledge of who the final holder will be that makes the difference. They aren’t buying on behalf of someone if they’re just trying to circumvent the FFL requirement.

Doesn't matter.

It’s really just a point of curiosity…but there is clearly a legal distinction. I just wondered why the Feds chose to prosecute one way over the other.

Again, because they lied when they signed the Form 4473.

 

[lemaymiami]

Yeah, as usual we're off the topic a bit - and I'm as prone to that as anyone else... Back to the incident... Surprise me... tell me they're actually going after all those purchasers as well... If the laws aren't enforced, why should anyone obey them?

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Over 60 guns in one month? The Minnesota couple appear to me to have been buying guns to sell at a profit with no regard to the eligibility of the person to buy and own a gun under state and federal law. They were reselling the guns with a $100 markup. Their buyers could have bought the guns themselves and saved $100 ... if they were legally eligible to buy and own.

If I did what that couple did and prosecuted myself, I would charge me with "dealing in firearms without a license" and not with "straw purchase".

Straw purchase is when you buy a gun for another person and the 4473 represents you as the buyer for your personal use. You can legally buy a gun as a bone fide gift for a person you know and who you believe is eligible to own a gun - ATF considers "gift" a legitimate "personal use". You aren't "gifting" a stranger if you charge them the sale price plus a $100 markup.

 

[GAF]

I`d be willing to bet drugs were involved in these person`s decision to try to make money this way.
The word that comes to mind is meth.

 

[dogtown tom]

Yeah, as usual we're off the topic a bit - and I'm as prone to that as anyone else... Back to the incident... Surprise me... tell me they're actually going after all those purchasers as well... If the laws aren't enforced, why should anyone obey them?

Maybe because that couple didn't have sales records of their illegal transactions?
Further, the buyers may not necessarily be prohibited persons.

 

[dogtown tom]

If I did what that couple did and prosecuted myself, I would charge me with "dealing in firearms without a license" and not with "straw purchase".

Straw purchase is when you buy a gun for another person and the 4473 represents you as the buyer for your personal use. You can legally buy a gun as a bone fide gift for a person you know and who you believe is eligible to own a gun - ATF considers "gift" a legitimate "personal use". You aren't "gifting" a stranger if you charge them the sale price plus a $100 markup.

There is no charge for straw purchase. The crime is falsifying the Form 4473. It's an easy conviction as the accused basically incriminated themselves when they filled out the 4473....and then sold the firearm. Sixty guns could be as many as sixty Form 4473's and sixty seperate counts of falsifying a federal form. Itr's a slam dunk for the US Attorney Office.

I'll bet they dangled the "plead guilty to these charges (straw purchases) and we'll drop the engaging in the business charge".

 

[dogtown tom]

...... They were reselling the guns with a $100 markup. Their buyers could have bought the guns themselves and saved $100 ... if they were legally eligible to buy and own.

There are guys paying $$$ over MSRP to get their hands on a Springfield SA-35 Hi Power. There are more than a few nonlicensees buying one, then putting it up on local gun forums for sale.

 

[Glockpride]

So sad, they are such a failure! Could have reached near the pinnacle to get a hundred, but they came up just short.

 

[5118ar]

Left MN, just over 2 years ago, Mpls used to be a decent for a medium size city, now it's becoming a bigger sh*t-hole than anyplace. The Dems in the twin cities think they run the state, but all they are doing is wrecking it.

 

[Waveski]

Agreed, the positive reputation long enjoyed by Minneapolis is gone , probably forever.

Very very sad.