Investigators say gun used in Truck Park bar shooting linked to straw purchase

[Elkins45]

Hows that work on numbers stolen in a month?

It doesn’t, but this thread isn’t about stolen guns.

 

[vintovka]

It doesn’t, but this thread isn’t about stolen guns.

Actually its about how straw purchases (and all gun control laws) are essentially useless for tracing when a firearm is stolen. Straw purchases seem limited to those very, very few with limited intellect or dire circumstances. Estimates of 300,000 to 600,000 guns are stolen each year. Add in those who do not report guns stolen and these numbers are prolly much higher. All of this plus "ghost" guns make me question why gun control is worthwhile at all.

 

[SterlingBullet]

The should help people understand where guns used in crimes come from. In 1997 the DOJ surveyed felons in federal and state prisons to determine where guns were purchased. Among those who carried a firearm during the offense for which they were serving time purchased their firearm from –
Retail store - 13.9%
Pawnshop - 8.3%
Flea market - 1.0%
Gun show - 0.7%
Friends or family - 39.6%
Street/illegal source - 39.2%
Sure have to watch out for that gun show loop hole.

 

[Hacker15E]

Stuff like this is how we end up with one gun per month restrictions.

No, voting for lawmakers who prefer kneejerk and ineffective solutions are how laws like that come into being.

 

[LiberalVet]

Gee, think we could have laws limiting gun purchases to prevent things like this?

BUT BUT BUT THE SECOND AMENDMENT!!!!

Most gun owners are in favor of background checks, waiting periods, quantity limits, etc. But any legislative representative with an R next to their name knows better. Sad!

Maybe with juuuuuust one more thought and prayer this will be solved.

 

[Shanvanvocht]

Most gun owners are in favor of background checks, waiting periods, quantity limits, etc.

In what fantasy world would that be?

 

[vintovka]

Gee, think we could have laws limiting gun purchases to prevent things like this?

BUT BUT BUT THE SECOND AMENDMENT!!!!

Most gun owners are in favor of background checks, waiting periods, quantity limits, etc. But any legislative representative with an R next to their name knows better. Sad!

Maybe with juuuuuust one more thought and prayer this will be solved.

Methinks me smellist troll scheisse!!

 

[Elkins45]

No, voting for lawmakers who prefer kneejerk and ineffective solutions are how laws like that come into being.

This gives them an example for why such laws are needed. Bad lawmakers are waiting to pounce on any such opportunity.

 

[vintovka]

I'll bet the cost of tracing even one firearm to an actual conviction (that's not tossed immediately out of court) is prolly in the multiple millions , not including lifetime benefits and retirements. Even then the perp will most likely be at it again in no time.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Call this what it is: Dealing in Firearms without an FFL.

"Straw purchase" is aka "buy for the other guy" usually a friend, relative, etc who can pass a BG check buying for someone else who may or may not be able to pass a BG check. The purchaser is buying on behalf of the actual buyer.

This guy was going about purchasing firearms multiple times multiple places with the intent of reselling them, but not specifically purchasing guns on behalf of a specific buyer. That is "dealing in Firearms without a license" and is a crime even if you claim to lose money on the transaction.

 

[The Last Outlaw]

Gee, think we could have laws limiting gun purchases to prevent things like this?

BUT BUT BUT THE SECOND AMENDMENT!!!!

Most gun owners are in favor of background checks, waiting periods, quantity limits, etc. But any legislative representative with an R next to their name knows better. Sad!

Maybe with juuuuuust one more thought and prayer this will be solved.

We do have laws on gun purchases. They don't work because they are not enforced properly. More laws is not the answer, proper enforcement of existing laws is the solution.

 

[SunnySlopes]

My LGS is very keen on straw purchases. My wife and I were shopping for a gun for her. It was a present, so she wanted me to pay for it.

Minor ruckus until we showed them our id's and swore she was legal to buy a gun.

We did the paperwork in her name and used her credit card just to put everybody at ease.

I see you don't have many posts so maybe you're kinda new to all this? But, be advised, if you're buying someone a firearm as a gift, let them pick it out. Then you go back and just buy it for yourself.

These are strange days we're in, bros. On the precipice of "Book of Eli" genre.

 

[Blackbeard 44]

I have purchased guns for family in the form of a gift certificate that covers the cost of a gun, holster, and a few boxes of ammo.

my LGS store owner and all employees know me on a fist name basis and I asked them what the best way would be to buy a gun for my nephews birthday, he totaled up all the costs including taxes and I bought a gift certificate for that amount under the agreement that if prices did change and I owed him more that we would square up next time I came in.

even though I have known the owner for 20+ years he did not like the idea of selling me a gun that he knew I would be giving as a gift, and wasn't going to sell it to me. and I am appreciative of that.

 

[Tirod]

As far as using NICS, they arent supposed to be able to, and revealing they did in discovery would be a controversial issue. Not going to happen, they have to produce documentation in court, then go copy the bound ledger at the FFL anyway. Just make it look like there was some legal thought process to arrive at that conclusion.

I was in Branson visting a tool store and they had gotten an FFL license, guns in stock (two years ago). They had a lot of out of state visitors who didn't know you couldn't buy a handgun and leave with it - it had to ship to an FFL. Lots of disappointment,.On the other hand, the Mossberg Shockwave was cash and carry - and its a sawed off shotgun?!? OMG!! No takers.

One of those moments you stand aside and just listen. This staff was well informed and knew their stuff, customers were dumfounded and the short explanation of "government bureaucracy" answered their questions.

 

[GAF]

Badger Guns in Milwaukee or whatever it is called these days will not allow you to have your cell phone out inside of the store.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

".On the other hand, the Mossberg Shockwave was cash and carry - and its a sawed off shotgun?!? OMG!! No takers."

Shockwave Subject to Handgun and Other Firearm restrictions.

BATF has confirmed the Shockwave as an “other firearm” per the Gun Control Act (1968GCA), but not a Class 3/1934NFA firearm, and subject to 1968GCA handgun age and residency restrictions. As with the factory-made Pistol Grip Only PGO shotgun, buyers must be 21 years of age and be residents of the state where they are purchasing one.

Not a Sawed-Off

The Mossberg Shockwave is factory made and sold as a firearm classified by ATF as a Title I 1968GCA "Firearm" not a long gun or a handgun.
It is not a "sawed-off shotgun".
A sawed off shotgun is a long gun shotgun sawed off by a user, making a less restricted long gun into a more restricted concealable weapon. In the reasoning of the 1930s Congress, the only reason to do that was evasion of state and federal handgun restrictions.
You saw off a shotgun to make your own "Shockwave" type firearm, you need to get an ATF Form 1 approved and pay a manufacture and register tax to ATF and register it as a SBS short barrel shotgun.
Otherwise, the difference between a Shockwave and a sawed off shotgun? "Possessing an unregistered ... sawed-off shotgun is punishable by a fine of up to $10,000 and/or 10 years in prison." -- 26 U.S.C. § 5871.
People keep hearing that the Shockwave is a sawed-off shotgun and is legal, may led to some poor fool thinking they can convert their old Mossberg duck gun into a home-made Shockwave. That needs be nipped in the bud.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Gee, think we could have laws limiting gun purchases to prevent things like this?
BUT BUT BUT THE SECOND AMENDMENT!!!!
Most gun owners are in favor of background checks, waiting periods, quantity limits, etc. But any legislative representative with an R next to their name knows better. Sad!
Maybe with juuuuuust one more thought and prayer this will be solved.

_ A pattern of buying multiple firearms of the same type can put you on an ATF watch list and can slow down approval of your BG checks already. Buying guns not for personal use but with a view to turn around and sell them is known as "dealing in firearms without a license" and is a punishable offense already. My son bought identical rifles, one for himself and one as a gift to me, and was told by the dealer that could put him on an ATF list and slow his next BG checks. We do have laws, programs, and policies limiting gun purchases and quantity.
_ I favor the mostly instant TICS check in Tennessee (TBI state records check then they do the NICS check) for $10 BECAUSE it replaced the Tennessee Application for Permission to Purchase a Handgun with up to 15 day waiting period depending on city police or county sheriff to do a paperwork records check.
_ The Virginia state police gun show BG check ($5 or less) sounds reasonable to me. But the BG check for private sales is $39 in Tennessee and Bloomberg promoted Universal Background Checks UBC are $55 to $65 in other states, and all that excess fee "sin taxing" does is to discourage used gun sales with a BG check and encourage used gun sales without BG check.
_ What support BG checks got came from the fact they replaced waiting periods.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

More recent DoJ, National Institute of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics surveys of firearms using offenders
The 2016 survey actually asked a question related to straw purchase, Obtained from individual: 11.2 % Gift/purchased for prisoner

2004 Source and method to obtain firearm by State prisoners who carried or used a gun

Retail Purchase or trade 11.3%
7.3% - Retail store
2.6% - Pawnshop
0.6% - Flea market
0.8% - Gun show

Family or friend 37.4%
12.2% - Purchased or traded
14.1% - Rented or borrowed
11.1% - Other

Street/illegal source 40.0%
7.5% - Theft or burglary
25.2% - Drug dealer/off street
7.4% - Fence/black market

Other 11.2%

2016 DoJ NIJ BJS changed the questions in the survey
2016 Source and method to obtain firearm by State prisoners who carried or used a gun

Retail Purchase or trade 9.7%
7.2 % - Gun shop/store
1.5 % - Pawn shop
: % - Flea market
0.8 % - Gun show

Obtained from individual 26.0%
7.9 % - Purchased/traded
7.0 % - Rented/borrowed
11.2 % - Gift/purchased for prisoner

Off the street/underground market 43.2%

Theft 6.6%
1.5% - From burglary
: % - From retail source
1.8% - From family/friend
3.3% - Unspecified theft

Other source 17.1%
6.7% - Found at crime location
4.7% - Brought by someone else
5.6% - Other

Multiple sources 2.6%

BJS 2016 Note: Prisoners were asked to report all sources and methods of obtaining any firearm they possessed during the offense, so details may not sum.

 

[kwguy]

All of this plus "ghost" guns make me question why gun control is worthwhile at all.

Because gun control is not worthwhile. At all.

 

[kwguy]

BUT BUT BUT THE SECOND AMENDMENT!!!!

Maybe with juuuuuust one more thought and prayer this will be solved.

Those pesky founders. Doing something crazy like actually codifying our Natural Right of defense against oppressive forms of humanity. How inconvenient for so many.

Nothing wrong with thoughts and prayers. The problem comes when one (or some “majority”) oppresses the rights and freedoms of others, all in the name of some “greater good”, while searching for some utopian society.

 

[Ivy Mike]

In what fantasy world would that be?

Methinks me smellist troll scheisse!!

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/09/13/key-facts-about-americans-and-guns/

Sorry, he ain't wrong. Most Americans surveyed on these things don't have a problem with stricter requirements for owning guns.

The ATF itself has said that straw purchases are a huge source of illegal guns, meaning that a background check would only be marginally effective in stopping illegal purchases. But he's right. We have to remember that we gun hobbyists are not the average American. Laws and restrictions that we might find disagreeable, only care because it effects our hobby. The average person who buys one gun or less per decade, just doesn't care because it doesn't impact them.

 

[vintovka]

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/09/13/key-facts-about-americans-and-guns/

Sorry, he ain't wrong. Most Americans surveyed on these things don't have a problem with stricter requirements for owning guns.

The ATF itself has said that straw purchases are a huge source of illegal guns, meaning that a background check would only be marginally effective in stopping illegal purchases. But he's right. We have to remember that we gun hobbyists are not the average American. Laws and restrictions that we might find disagreeable, only care because it effects our hobby. The average person who buys one gun or less per decade, just doesn't care because it doesn't impact them.

If you believe ATF

 

[BlueHeelerFl]

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/09/13/key-facts-about-americans-and-guns/

Sorry, he ain't wrong. Most Americans surveyed on these things don't have a problem with stricter requirements for owning guns.

The ATF itself has said that straw purchases are a huge source of illegal guns, meaning that a background check would only be marginally effective in stopping illegal purchases. But he's right. We have to remember that we gun hobbyists are not the average American. Laws and restrictions that we might find disagreeable, only care because it effects our hobby. The average person who buys one gun or less per decade, just doesn't care because it doesn't impact them.

If you look through the details, it states that 2 mass shootings took place within 2 or 3 weeks prior to the poll. Which would have an effect on the results.

With that said, the poll admits that the percentage of people wanting gun control is trending down, as the previous poll the pro gun control number was higher.

After the riots and lockdowns of last year I can only assume that this number has changed again, with the record numbers of new gun owners

I believe the margin of error was 2.1% which makes the poll almost even anyway

 

[kwguy]

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/09/13/key-facts-about-americans-and-guns/

Sorry, he ain't wrong. Most Americans surveyed on these things don't have a problem with stricter requirements for owning guns.

The ATF itself has said that straw purchases are a huge source of illegal guns, meaning that a background check would only be marginally effective in stopping illegal purchases. But he's right. We have to remember that we gun hobbyists are not the average American. Laws and restrictions that we might find disagreeable, only care because it effects our hobby. The average person who buys one gun or less per decade, just doesn't care because it doesn't impact them.

It’s more than a hobby. To us fortunate ones here in the US, sure, we can consider it a “hobby”. Just like hunting. It’s a hobby for most of us that do it. Nobody really “needs” to hunt for food anymore. In OUR world. But that’s not the rest of the world, and just because we are fortunate now, doesn’t mean it’s permanent. It wasn’t always just a hobby. And it may not be again.

Our hubris is amazing.

 

[kwguy]

Sorry, he ain't wrong. Most Americans surveyed on these things don't have a problem with stricter requirements for owning guns.

That means absolutely nothing. Just because the majority thinks something is good doesn’t mean it is. Every time a minority is oppressed, it’s because some “majority” thought it was a good idea, or just didn’t care.