Minuteman Project Volunteers Face Probe

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an illegal immigrant entering the U.S. illegally by running across the border is NOT the same as someone trespassing or entering into your house. if someone is inside your house you have much more legal standing to take action against them since they're inside your house (i.e. use of deadly force, holding them until the police arrive).

someone illegally entering by running across the border is different. you can't use deadly force or hold them against their will until the INS or Border Patrol arrives.

that is not a parallel example.

Delmar wrote:
"So, Mr Illegal alien got a nice clean t-shirt for his trouble, plus some fresh water. Gee, that sounds more like a humanitarian than someone with evil in his heart."

You're missing the point. obviously he is not being humanitarian. you obviously didn't see or hear what was written on the shirt. if he was humanitarian he'd give the guy a shirt with nothing written on it, or at least something not as lame as what he had printed up. that guy's an idiot. you know this is clearly not meant as a humanitarian gesture.
 
Officials: Man Not Held Against His Will

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050407/D89AOI5G0.html

Apr 7, 3:25 PM (ET)

By ARTHUR H. ROTSTEIN

(AP) A group of migrants walks to cross the border fence to Arizona desert Wednesday April 6, 2005, in...
Full Image



TUCSON, Ariz. (AP) - Authorities determined Thursday that three volunteers involved in a civilian project to watch the border and report illegal crossers did not hold an illegal immigrant against his will.

The Mexican man had told sheriff's deputies that he was detained and forced to pose for a picture holding a T-shirt with a mocking slogan. The shirt read: "Bryan Barton caught an illegal alien and all I got was this T-shirt." Barton was one of the three volunteers.

"The county attorney's office reviewed all available evidence, that indicates that there was no forcible detention, therefore the case is not substantiated, and no charges are pending," said Carol Capas, a spokeswoman for the Cochise County Sheriff's Department.

The sheriff's department, Mexican Consul Miguel Escobar and the U.S. Border Patrol also agreed that the 26-year-old man was not detained, said Capas and Border Patrol spokeswoman Andrea Zortman.

The volunteers involved in Wednesday's incident identified themselves as members of the Minuteman Project - a monthlong effort that has people from around the country spread out along a stretch of the Arizona-Mexico border to report undocumented migrants and smugglers.

Law enforcement officials have said they fear the project will lead to vigilante violence. Mexico's foreign relations department also pledged in the days leading up to the civilian operation to pursue all legal and diplomatic means to stop the volunteers and ensure that they do not violate the rights of Mexican citizens.

Wednesday's incident was the first reporting any possible detention, though volunteers earlier assisted an immigrant in distress.
 
I want to make this clear to the mods that this is not a personal attack. It's simply what I think, and that is that some people seem to me, personally, to be so brainwashed by Political Correctness and silly phrases like "dehumanizing" that they have lost all sight of reality. It baffles me, to a great degree.

Let me present how I see it:

A fellow went along to aid the MMP. On his way down he had some t-shirts printed that he thought might be humorous. When encountering an Illegal Invader he fed the guy and asked him "Hey! I wanna get a picture to send home, how 'bout wearin' this fer me?" The Invader, figuring what the hell, he's done been nailed but at least he got a free feed out of it, goes along.

The end.

People do still have humor. Other people do still recognize the humor in their own errors. It doesn't require abuse or "dehumanizing". It just requires a little mutual understanding of the situation. To always assume the worst of people and their intentions, especially before the evidence is even in, has got to be a dysmal way to view the world.

Also, the Illegal Alien IS a criminal. We know this. THR'ers don't express problems with what cops, generally, do with known criminals(within reason). The upset comes when police abuse rights and procedures on innocents or up to the point of physical harm. Guilty parties? Hey, a t-shirt or the stocks I think you will find aren't going to raise too many eyebrows around here...
 
Great! no detention, but that guy needs to have a serious talking-to before he gets to participate in MMP. my opinion.
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no kidding! i mean, he should have had the text on the shirt also printed in espanol. i'm sure not being able to read the text in the migrants mother tongue is completely distressing to the poor persecuted migrant. he should sue the guy and totally get rich off this incident that will only put further stress on the migrant.


:neener:




read something the other day that just bugs the crap outta me. some hippy was saying that since migrants are having a tough time getting work, they are not returning back to mexico and decide to stay. their wives and children then cross the border illegally so they can be a whole family. and this hippy goes on to blame the US border policy for seperating these poor impoverished loving families. :barf:
 
Spreadfire-I missed nothing, but you certainly have. How did the illegal alien come into possession of a cool drink of water and a clean shirt???

Simple-he crossed the border illegally, and came upon some Americans, who gave these items to him, and is in the process of being documented and shipped back to his home.

Personally, my hats off to the men and women who have taken their own time and money to watch the border. They are not shooting them, beating them or mistreating them in any appriciable way. In fact, they are treating them decently, and if someone buys a couple of t-shirts to give to these people-so what.

If you're that worried about image, maybe you should be there to make sure we kiss their feet and congratulate them on their journey or something.

Welcome to America-pay no mind that you snuck in, the laws only apply to ??? :rolleyes:
 
i dont see any of this as a personal attack either. this is a discussion and it appears civil.

my original point was that this guy went out of his way to do something which he thought was "funny" but may end up bringing unwanted media attention to other MMP volunteers who are taking this more seriously.

to delmar,
sorry you disagree with me. you may not think it's a big deal some moron got these shirts printed up but it does not make MMP as a whole look good. sure, if he was an individual guy doing it then who cares. but he's representing MMP and in turn his stupid actions make MMP as a whole look bad.

but no need to get pissy with me. Delmar I don't see you on the border either. I think I've made it clear - I don't support MMP. I never have and I surely don't now. that doesn't mean I'm pro-illegal immigration. I just think MMP is drawing unnecessary media attention to gun owners. and this incident didn't help.
 
I should have posted this before before I posted 'Officials: Man Not Held Against His Will' , but I didn't

Somebody either is not telling the truth, or they remember thing differently.

Example;
Illegal immergrent's story;
The Mexican man had told sheriff's deputies that he was detained and forced to pose for a picture holding a T-shirt with a mocking slogan. The shirt read: "Bryan Barton caught an illegal alien and all I got was this T-shirt."
Click to expand...

MMP members say;
Barton is one of the three volunteers. He told agents that they waved the man over to them, offered him food and water, and gave him the T-shirt and money before the Border Patrol arrived.


"All they did was provide water and wait for the Border Patrol," Minuteman spokesman Grey Deacon said. "What's the big deal?"
Click to expand...

Then the Official Report comes out;
"The county attorney's office reviewed all available evidence, that indicates that there was no forcible detention, therefore the case is not substantiated, and no charges are pending," said Carol Capas, a spokeswoman for the Cochise County Sheriff's Department.

The sheriff's department, Mexican Consul Miguel Escobar and the U.S. Border Patrol also agreed that the 26-year-old man was not detained, said Capas and Border Patrol spokeswoman Andrea Zortman.
Click to expand...

Did the illegal man think they group he came upon were a part of the Beta Group??

Who is to be believed?? :what:
 
Because I work in a Network Operations Center, and we have to monitor worldwide events for possible issues....we have CNN (99% fact free).

They showed several videos of the Air Force, Army and Marine Corps facilities which are having trouble with illegals wandering onto bombing ranges, running gates in trucks, and generally interfering with ongoing training exercises.

I can see the breaking story where an illegal jumps the fence, walks thru an impact area, detonates a bomb or shell, and the hand wringers and defenders of the illegals will be suing for a billion-zillion dollars to ease their familes pain :fire:

Of course, they'll blame it on the MM, because they couldn't get thru there illegally.

Spreadfire-you seem to be one of the few who thinks the man did wrong. Sure, he didn't have to give him the T-shirt, nor did he have to give him water.

What you don't know about the situation is a lot more than you do. For all you know, the illegal might have liked the t-shirt??? And maybe not, but your opening salvo all but had the MM man up for torture-hard to back down from a position like that when the facts come in.

Thats okay, its what makes the world spin.
 
Citizens cannot arrest for immigration violations. Nor can local law enforcement.
Click to expand...
We can't? Why not?

From the legal dictionary at FindLaw:
citizen's arrest:
an arrest made not by a law officer but by any citizen who derives the authority to arrest from the fact of being a citizen
Note: Under common law, a citizen may make an arrest for any felony actually committed, or for a breach of the peace committed in his or her presence.
Click to expand...
 
i beg to differ. i still stand by my original post - that guy is an idiot. he makes all of MMP look like idiots.

"Spreadfire-you seem to be one of the few who thinks the man did wrong. Sure, he didn't have to give him the T-shirt, nor did he have to give him water."
Me, alot of other Americans who don't post on THR, and the Associated Press that covered the story. I'm not the only one. I'm the only one taking a stand on this board. Less than 1% of the entire U.S. population reads this board, which is also a very politically polarized board to boot. You're looking at a very small microcosm of society on THR. this is a very right wing forum. If it wasn't wrong or improper it wouldn't have made the news.

"Sure, he didn't have to give him the T-shirt, nor did he have to give him water."
Or money for that matter. That isn't the mission of the MMP. they're not out there to give them water, t-shirts, and money. they're not out there to take home "trophies" and souvenirs by making illegal aliens wear stupid t-shirts so they can get a hoot out of it. yes, i personally don't like it when a bunch of idiots get together and poke fun at an ethnic minority or some other group of people. i don't see MMP over there on the Canadian border and if they found a Canadian walking across the border I'm sure they wouldn't have him wear the same t-shirt. Why? Because chances are he can read the shirt. They are laughing at the fact that most likely the illegal alien from Mexico can't read the shirt. That is why it is funny to you. If the Mexicans were on the other side doing similar stuff to Americans we'd all be up in arms about it.

"What you don't know about the situation is a lot more than you do. For all you know, the illegal might have liked the t-shirt???"
Sure, that's believable. :rolleyes: I hope you actually believe that.

Okay Hawkmoon,
go down to the nearest place you suspect illegal aliens in your hometown and place them all under citizens arrest. then call the cops and see what happens. then post on THR what the result was. :rolleyes:

we'll be waiting.
 
Me, alot of other Americans who don't post on THR, and the Associated Press that covered the story.
Click to expand...

Actually it seems to be an almost utter non-issue, especially now that no charges will be filed. I've only seen it pop up on a couple other boards so far and there is about zero reaction. So it looks like it's mostly you and the AP. I will, however, give you all those people who already opposed the MMP and support Illigal Invasion. of course there opinions are particularly relevant to most Americans, whether they visit THR or not.
 
"You're looking at a very small microcosm of society on THR."

Yes you are, and in fact, before you make another mistake, try reading more posts-this is NOT just another right wing forum. This is very likely the most balanced forum I know of. The common thread is the people here believe the second amendment is for the people, and not for the government to bargain away. As for opinions here, you'll see liberal, conservative, libertarian, socialist and others.

You want polarization? Try DU. I expect a report by 0800 ;)

"i don't see MMP over there on the Canadian border and if they found a Canadian walking across the border I'm sure they wouldn't have him wear the same t-shirt."

What-you're an MM member?? How come you're at home? And if you're not, who are you to say what would happen?

"That is why it is funny to you."

You are in no position to know whether I think its funny or not-personally, I think it would have been a light moment in any language, just so you NOW know.

"we'll be waiting."

And we can count on you to take a stand on the issue and do something other than a vain attempt at passing mere speculation as fact?
 
"Actually it seems to be an almost utter non-issue, especially now that no charges will be filed."

It's not illegal to be stupid or be a jerk. If that were the case alot of people would be in jail. :)

It is illegal, however, to go around placing people under "citizen arrest" for suspected immigration violations. if it was legal don't you think MMP would have exercised that right?

don't take my word for it. go out RIGHT NOW and arrest the first guy you think is an illegal alien. then call 911 and see what the cops do. :D
 
delmar wrote:

""i don't see MMP over there on the Canadian border and if they found a Canadian walking across the border I'm sure they wouldn't have him wear the same t-shirt."

What-you're an MM member?? How come you're at home? And if you're not, who are you to say what would happen?"

obviously i can't say for sure. nor can you. you speculate as much as i do. i already told you i don't support MMP. obviously you have a short memory span. :confused:


"You are in no position to know whether I think its funny or not"
im glad to see you think it is funny. it is funny because the guy can't read it.

"we'll be waiting."

And we can count on you to take a stand on the issue and do something other than a vain attempt at passing mere speculation as fact?"
i don't speculate any more than you do. i do know for a FACT that you can't place someone under citizen's arrest for a immigration violation. don't take my speculation delmar, go out and find out for yourself. go place someone under citizens arrest for it and tell us what happens. the cops will tell you the same thing i'm telling you.

i double dog dare you :D can you turn down a dare like that? i'm challenging you to do it if you don't believe me. there is NO speculation here. it is not a valid arrest.
 
afraid not DocZinn. that guy is a moron. MMP volunteers know the media is watching them like a hawk and if they do something stupid like this then there is going to be media attention.
 
don't take my word for it. go out RIGHT NOW and arrest the first guy you think is an illegal alien. then call 911 and see what the cops do.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately in my city,the police have been told by
the city council to not "hassle" the poor illegals :( .
In other words,the cops would probably laugh at me.
Now if these were bikers or white trash hanging out
in front of bussinesses, the cops would be there in a
heartbeat!

QuickDraw
 
If I were arrested in Mexico for illegal immigration, and I was not treated in accordance with how Americans thought I should be treated, I would have no right to grouse about my treatment. Tough luck for me. Guess I shouldn't have broken the law of the land. These people are breaking the law and doing so rather flagrantly. Yes the T-shirt was in rather poor taste, but then so is all the best humor*. All humor is offensive to someone. The MM don't have to give them some water and money, but they do anyway because they are human beings dealing with other, less fortunate, human beings who know we have it better than everyone else. They aren't going to Guatemala and Belize in droves, after all. The MM are just detaining them and trying to be a visible deterrent. In my opinion, the water and money shows a lot of class. They could just shoot at the illegal's feet till he runs back towards the border. It would be kinder than many other methods of repelling an invasion.

*Q: Why doesn't Mexico win any medals at the Olympics?

A: All of their best runners, swimmers, and jumpers go north.
 
"i do know for a FACT"

Ok-educate this double dog. What IS this law you refer to-these supposed "FACTS" you have??

It's funny because it happened. Not because its in a language the illegal alien may not be able to read.

Your speculation was a suspicion the illegal was held against his will-wrong.
Me thinking it was funny because the man could not read the t-shirt. Wrong.

"go down to the nearest place you suspect illegal aliens in your hometown and place them all under citizens arrest"

Naw-we'll invite them to your house so they will be treated correctly. After all, we might hurt their feelings and make you mad at us. :rolleyes:

Did the AP insinuate the MMP illegally detained the border jumper? Did not see it so I don't know.
 
delmar,

since everything i say is "speculation" im going to let you go out and find out for yourself. then you can blame the cops when they inform you that you as a private citizen have no authority to go around citizen-arresting people you "speculate" are illegal aliens.

obviously you're never wrong. so go out and go clean up your neighborhood. you don't need to go to the border. start a one-man operation in your own neighborhood. you can even put on all your Mall Ninja stuff.

i'll assist you by sending you 100 pairs of flexicuffs you can make your arrests en masse.

now go out and go place someone under citizen's arrest so you don't have to rely on my "speculation." :rolleyes:

i'm not mad at you delmar, but you like to think everyone else's opinion holds no water while your's is the word of God himself.

go arrest someone. i'll be waiting.
 
Back at the bottom of post #1 by Desertdog there is the following:

>> Francisco Garcia, a volunteer for a shelter in Altar, Mexico, some 60 miles south of the Mexico-Arizona border, has said the migrants he has encountered have dismissed the Minutemen simply as "crazy people" — but for migrants' rights activists the situation is worrisome. "For us, it's clear to see things could get out of control because those in the migration business are not easily intimidated," Garcia said. "We're afraid an aggression could escalate into an international incident." <<

It's the first time I've seen anyone in Mexico admit there is such a thing as a Migration Business. Also the people in this business are apparently not warm & fuzzy, because they "are not easily intimidated, ..."

Indeed they are not. There have been reports of border crossers being robbed, raped, and murdered or abandoned by the “businessmen†who they paid to help them, but not the folks on our side of the line. I would call this some real abuse, being perpetrated by Mexican nationals, but the media that have come here manage to ignore it so they can instead report the “ugly t-shirt incident.â€

The combined increased presence of US Border Patrol and other law enforcement agencies – federal, state and local – combined with the Minutemen on our side of the border, and Mexican forces on they’re side, have brought illegal immigration to a crawl during what is usually one of the busiest times during the year. Undoubtedly they are coming in elsewhere, but that is another issue. None of this would have happened if the Minutemen had not forced the issue.

I am sure that the individuals involved in the subject incident will either be straightened out and/or sent home. But from a local perspective (I live here) the t-shirt incident will not cloud the overall picture. At the moment the Minutemen who are out doing duty in the desert are held in much higher esteem then anyone connected with Fox or CNN news, or for that matter anyone in Washington from the President on down.
 
OK, Spreadfire, I was pretty certain of my knowledge but I went ahead and called the local PD and asked them if I knew for a fact where a Mexican Illegal was, or more accurately if I randomly encountered the fellow I know to be an illegal, could I arrest him and haul him in? Their answer?

"Load that ****** up and get his ass in here, or hold him wherever and give us a call and we'll come and get him."

Is it illegal for me to do this?

"**** no!"

So there appears to be some rather colorful disagreement among professional circles regarding your assertion...
 
What would happen to an American that was caught in Mexico without crossing legaly into the country? I have heard horror stories of Mexician jails,which would be the first place an illegal would be placed.
Mexico would not give free food,bath,water,medical care and a free trip back across the border.
It's also amazing that Americans returning from another country has to present a passport now or be turned away even with proper I.D.,but illegals can get all of the above free care and never be arrested. :cuss:
 
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