Minuteman Project Volunteers Face Probe

[Deavis]

The mere fact that some moron went to the extent to have these shirts made up, bringing a video camera to have it documented, and then making illegals wear them, is dehumanizing. Call it what you want, but evidently, this clown, had this all planned out in advance. He's not a patriot. He's a jerk.

Right on Steve, right on. I'll say upfront that I disagree with Steve in that I think the MMP is a great way to bring public attention to the border situation, however, like all peaceful protests it must remain morally spotless. The whole idea of a peaceful resistance is to show how immoral and wrong the other side is. Degrading another person, illegal or not, is the wrong way to get people to join your cause. If you have ever been part of an organization with a public front then you know what I am talking about.

If the extent of your public relations skills is, and I'm sure there are plenty of people here that fit this bill, talking trash online or during a deathmatch with your clan then you are clueless to the effect a single bad action can have for a group. Most people have never been part of an organization that is under public scrutiny, so they don't understand how important PR is.

It is no different than being falsely accused of rape. It doesn't matter whether you are proven innocent or not, the stigma will ruin your image. The best option is not to put yourself in that situation, in other words, don't print idiotic T-shirts for self gratification at the expense of the cause you are representing. That guy is an idiot and should be sent home.

As far as a Citizen's arrest, here is Arizona's law.

13-3884. Arrest by private person

A private person may make an arrest:

1. When the person to be arrested has in his presence committed a misdemeanor amounting to a breach of the peace, or a felony.

2. When a felony has been in fact committed and he has reasonable ground to believe that the person to be arrested has committed it.

Now supposedly illegal entry is a misdemeanor, not a felony., but I can't confirm that. Surely someone here can use findlaw better than me. Regardless, the MM would have to see them actually crossing the border and then convince the judge that it was a breach of peace or a felony if it is one. This discusses citizen's arrest in a federal setting. They seem, if I understand correctly, to recognize the power of a citizen to arrest. This is not exactly dealing with a citizen, it is what the 9th court came up with for out of country arrests.

http://www.usdoj.gov/osg/briefs/2003/3mer/2mer/2003-0485.mer.rep.pdf

Here is another link to caselaw where the Federal government recognizes the right to citizen's arrest. It appears that they recognize whatever the state law is regarding it.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&case=/data2/circs/5th/9750904cr0.html

I went ahead and called the local PD and asked them if I knew for a fact where a Mexican Illegal was, or more accurately if I randomly encountered the fellow I know to be an illegal, could I arrest him and haul him in? Their answer?

Their answer? Who cares, tt doesn't matter! If I call the cops, get a receptionist, and ask her if I can a burn down my neighbors house because they play loud music and she says it is okay, then I can do it?

The police are not the ones who decide what is lawful and what is not. Trusting your butt to some joe shmoe at the station will land you in jail. Go call the DA's office and get a real legal opinion. Better yet, go pay your lawyer to do it since DAs don't respond to legal questions from private citizens (at least in Texas)

 

[spacemanspiff]

you know what? i've already accepted the simple fact that its not in this countrys best interest to worry much about what 'dehumanizes' some poor soul.

i'm okay with border jumpers getting their picture taken with a funny tshirt on.
i'm also okay with terrorists being touched by female interrogators.

dehumanizing? pshhhhawwww! big deal!

 

[Deavis]

Spiff,

I disagree with you. The correct course of action is for the MM to kill their enemies with kindness. They should be the picture perfect guys, doing the just thing but being compassionate. This issue is all about image. Whoever portrays the best image is going to win. Hard working migrant worker in search of a better life v. Redneck beer guzzling vigilante who is a racist?

They aren't trying to convince you, they are trying to convince the other 95% of the U.S. that is clueless as to what illegal immigration really does to a state. Dehumanizing an illegal is going to work against them, plain and simple. Remember, just like the VPC, we are not dealing with rational people!

 

[JohnKSa]

The sheriff's department, Mexican Consul Miguel Escobar and the U.S. Border Patrol also agreed that the 26-year-old man was not detained

What an idiot I am to think that this statement would end this thread!

I guess I didn't realize we have folk here at TFL who are more concerned about the rights of illegal aliens than the Mexican Consul is...

 

[2nd Amendment]

Their answer? Who cares, tt doesn't matter! If I call the cops, get a receptionist, and ask her if I can a burn down my neighbors house because they play loud music and she says it is okay, then I can do it?

Well first off it wasn't a receptionist. But that's not the point...

don't take my word for it. go out RIGHT NOW and arrest the first guy you think is an illegal alien. then call 911 and see what the cops do.

I was simply confirming what the cops would do, as was suggested. And now we have our answer, correct?

 

[Art Eatman]

The nearest we have to truth is:

"Barton is one of the three volunteers. He told agents that they waved the man over to them, offered him food and water, and gave him the T-shirt and money before the Border Patrol arrived."

This was accepted as truth by the criminal justice system involved in the incident.

Hokay: If anybody sees this as "dehumanizing", I have some advice for them.

Neither you nor your children should:

Ever join the military. Go to any school where the majority of the faculty holds opposing political views. Join any fraternal organizations in high school or college. Run for political office. Be ignorant of any rules or regulations at any federal facility; national parks come immediately to mind. Be fifty years of age or older and seek a salaried job. Own an airplane and live near the US border with Mexico.

Oh, I nearly forgot: Don't travel via commercial aviation.

Art

 

[Old Fuff]

Reporting from the scene:

Reliable local gossip is saying that a Minuteman patrol encountered an individual near the border who by all appearances belonged on the other side. As he was in some distress the got him a bowl of cereal and poured fresh milk on it and he was obviously grateful. They also gave him a little money and indicated he should go back from where he came.

The t-shirt came into the picture (literally – the entire incident was videotaped) because one of the Minutemen is, or was going to run for some public office in California, and he thought the pictures and/or video would be helpful during the campaign. The border-crosser agreed to pose and the pictures/videos were made.

Later, when ugly charges were made the Cochise County Sheriff’s Department started a full investigation. The various parties were questioned, and the video (that had been voluntarily given to them) was viewed.

All of the authorities involved, including the Mexican Counsel-General, agreed that no crime had been committed, and that the Minutemen had not forcibly detained or otherwise abused the Mexican citizen. Consequently no charges were brought or even sought. Were it not for some of the more sensational minded American news media the matter probably wouldn’t have been reported beyond some local newspapers. As it was it quickly became a celebrated item.

The concurrence of the Counsel-General was especially interesting because while human and legal rights of ordinary citizens – especially those in the lower economic classes – are routinely violated with a vengeance in Mexico they become very sensitive to any perceived slight that might have been inflicted on one of they’re people while they were illegally in the United States.

The left-wingers have turned out in force, desperately seeking some poor and downtrodden victims of right-wing redneck gun-violence. So far, they and advocates for open borders and unlimited immigration haven’t found much they can get their teeth into. Not too worry; if they can’t find it they’ll invent it.

The Minutemen may not be the best solution, but so far what they are doing is working. We think they are far better then the warm & fuzzy answers some others with questionable motives have too offer.

 

[Jay Kominek]

Authorities said volunteers' footprints have also made if difficult for agents to track illegal immigrants.

So, the border patrol is running around in the desert with actual human trackers, following all these foot prints? I find that hard to believe.
(I'm sure they've got trackers, but not that they comb the border looking for tracks and following them.)

 

[Crosshair]

Illegal alien getting caught illegally crossing the border held and made fun of.

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

2nd Amendment wrote:

"don't take my word for it. go out RIGHT NOW and arrest the first guy you think is an illegal alien. then call 911 and see what the cops do.

I was simply confirming what the cops would do, as was suggested. And now we have our answer, correct?"

not really. you were supposed to go physically arrest one and declare him under citizen arrest, not just hypothetically go do it and then call the local LE and see if they'd ACTUALLY come and file with INS to deport the person back to their home country.

so, 2nd Amendment, go out and ARREST one today. then call the cops via cellphone and wait for them to show up. i bet you the watch commander himself will go down to where you are to figure out if they REALLY can take your citizen arrest, book the guy into county jail on a FEDERAL statute under CITIZEN arrest, then call INS, and have him deported.

tell you what. be successful, as in, provide me with a police report stating:

1. you were the complainant
2. you were the arresting citizen
3. the local LE took the guy into custody
4. INS physically deported him

and i will give you $100 cash. however, if you fail any of the four conditions above, you mail me $100 cash.

sound good?

let's see if this can really work. if it can, it will set legal precedent for anyone to go citizen-arresting anyone they suspect being an illegal alien. then we dont need MMP, we can clean up our respective cities we live in. then protecting the border isn't that important since we can get them once we see them mowing our neighbor's lawn, or cleaning someone's house, or just sitting around minding their own business.

i will send you 100 pairs of flexicuffs too so you can make mass arrests and rid your town of the scourge.

let me know if you will take me up on my bet. otherwise......

 

[2nd Amendment]

Can't take you up on it. Don't currently know an illegal alien. The only ones we had in this area were packed off months ago. The only remaining Mexicans all work at the local Mexican restaurant and, so far as I know, are legal. You have to understand, this is a county with exactly six blacks and about 30 Mexicans in the whole place. Doesn't leave me a lot of potential victims, erm, targets...uhhh...

 

[Old Fuff]

Laws concerning Citizen Arrest vary in different states. However at the moment the issue should be limited to Arizona. There, Citizen Arrest is permitted under some circumstances. Some (but perhaps not all) of the statutes that apply are listed below.

-------------------------------------------------------

13-3884. Arrest by private person

A private person may make an arrest:
1. When the person to be arrested has in his presence committed a misdemeanor amounting to a breach of the peace, or a felony.
2. When a felony has been in fact committed and he has reasonable ground to believe that the person to be arrested has committed it.

13-3889. Method of arrest by private person

A private person when making an arrest shall inform the person to be arrested of the intention to arrest him and the cause of the arrest, unless he is then engaged in the commission of an offense, or is pursued immediately after its commission or after an escape, or flees or forcibly resists before the person making the arrest has opportunity so to inform him, or when the giving of such information will imperil the arrest.

13-3900. Duty of private person after making arrest

A private person who has made an arrest shall without unnecessary delay take the person arrested before the nearest or most accessible magistrate in the county in which the arrest was made, or deliver him to a peace officer, who shall without unnecessary delay take him before such magistrate. The private person or officer so taking the person arrested before the magistrate shall make before the magistrate a complaint, which shall set forth the facts showing the offense for which the person was arrested. If, however, the officer cannot make the complaint, the private person who delivered the person arrested to the officer shall accompany the officer before the magistrate and shall make to the magistrate the complaint against the person arrested.

13-3881. Arrest; how made; force and restraint

A. An arrest is made by an actual restraint of the person to be arrested, or by his submission to the custody of the person making the arrest.
B. No unnecessary or unreasonable force shall be used in making an arrest, and the person arrested shall not be subjected to any greater restraint than necessary for his detention.

----------------------------------------------------------------

In practice, residents have often held unresisting illegal border crossers for pick-up by the Border Patrol or other authorities. The more common practice however is to report sightings of probable illegal aliens to the authorities (usually the Border Patrol) and not become otherwise involved.

On occasion, the Mexican Government and/or advocacy groups have threatened, and even taken legal action against local ranchers or property owners who held suspected illegal aliens for pick-up by the Border Patrol. But so long as some sort of physical abuse wasn’t involved I don’t believe they got anywhere.

Generally speaking the border crossers will not resist apprehension. They simply get deported and come back across again shortly thereafter. The exception might be one with a criminal record that knew simple deportation wouldn’t be in the cards. These are the ones that make everyone edgy.

It should be noted that the above statutes go to some length to protect the human and legal rights of the person being subjected to arrest, be it by an officer or a private citizen.

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

2nd Amendment,

so sorry you can't go somewhere outside of your county to gain $100. what if i upped the ante? would that convince you to take my offer?

im willing to up it if you have the $$$ and the guts to do it.

take my challenge......won't you? let's see just how sure you are about all this.

 

[spacemanspiff]

okay you two. are we really comparing apples to apples here? are the MM calling 911, or border patrol?

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

spaceman,

we're talking about the fact that private citizens do not possess the legal authority to citizen-arrest suspected illegal immigrants. i've challenged 2nd Amendment to go and do it.

if he is successful ill give him $. if he tries and fails he gives me $. it's that simple. both of us are certain we're correct however one of us isn't willing to stake his wallet on it.

as to who MMP calls, I assume BP, since the alien in question was handed over to BP?

 

[2nd Amendment]

I suppose this is one way to distract from the issue and your minority view on it, Spread. The fact is, I don't really give a damn. I asked the local "authorities", they don't agree with you. I am certain I can find other "authorities" who do, which is something of the point, afterall. If you find that troublesome, do something about all this yourself. Personally I think the only thing more funny at this point than claims of dehumanization and generalizations of law where it really doesn't matter is the fact you are issuing "challenges" over a BB. Just say mea culpa and move on. Yeesh.

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

too bad you aren't taking me up on my challenge i could really use an extra $100+

i love it when people on the internet argue something so bitterly yet when it comes time to actually do something about something they believe so much in they fail to mobilize and do something about it. just sit there and type is easy. to go out and do it is much different.

so big deal. you called the local LE and they said go ahead bring the guy in. did they say what charge it would be? did they guarantee the guy would get deported? under what probable cause and evidence do you have that your "suspect" got here illegally, except hearsay evidence, which citizens cannot introduce into a court of law?

call them back and get the specific authority under Indiana law that allows citizens to arrest people they suspect are illegal aliens. then think really carefully about what direct evidence you have that your suspected illegal alien is illegally here before you go playing mall ninja and citizen-arresting someone without cause.

 

[2nd Amendment]

Spreadfire, as I pointed out: As a distraction this isn't really going anywhere. Let it be. What people feel passionately about is illegals and your claims of dehumanization. The issue of arresting illegals in your neighborhood was simply an aside you made an issue of. I found it funny enough to make a phone call about. "Challenges" on bulletin boards are childish. Know why...?

I just caught an alien, Spread. The police have me scheduled for a medal next Friday. There will be a webpage verifying all this by Monday. Send me my money, ok? Ok? Spread...?

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

show me proof (arrest report and evidence of deportation) and i will. otherwise you owe me $100. my address is on my webpage in my signature tag

sounds to me like you'll sit in the luxury of your computer and chair and type your opinion away on THR but won't actually go out and act upon what you believe is your right go to out and do.......

 

[Deavis]

Well first off it wasn't a receptionist. But that's not the point...

You are right, the point is is still the same as when I made it earlier. The police are not lawyers. They are not DAs. They are not the ones who will be bringing charges against your captured illegal alien or you if you screwed up. The only thing they do is either agree to take him or not take him based on the evidence that you can prove.

I cannot find anything in the Arizona Statutes that declares border crossing a felony or a misdemeanor amounting to a breach of the peace. If someone else finds it then I'll agree with you and you have a case for citizen's arrest. Just because you don't like what someone is doing doesn't give you the power to arrest them, it has to follow the law. The argument isn't over whether citizens possess the power to arrest, they do, it is whether that arrest is supported by Arizona law.

Crosshair and Art, you guys are missing the boat.

Ever join the military. Go to any school where the majority of the faculty holds opposing political views. Join any fraternal organizations in high school or college. Run for political office. Be ignorant of any rules or regulations at any federal facility; national parks come immediately to mind. Be fifty years of age or older and seek a salaried job. Own an airplane and live near the US border with Mexico.

Tell me how any of that applies to the goals and desires of the MMP? Their sole mission is to raise awarness about illegal border crossings and the effect it has on the State of Arizona. Doing stupid things, whether they are dehumanizing or not, is not going to help their cause. There is a huge difference between allowing yourself to be publicly humiliated in a college frat initiation and humiliating another person for self-gratification during a public relations campaign.

There is a reason that many people aren't cut out for public relations, they don't understand how to deal with people that have different views than them. It is obvious that you two don't see the link between acting like an idiot and alienating a percentage of the population you desire to influence. Nothing wrong with that, just realize that your views on acceptable treatment of people are not shared by all Americans.

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

see this THR post:

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=133825

The guy, Mr. Barton, was asked to leave MMP.

how wrong was i....?

 

[Shalako]

Humanitarian?
I am still hung up back on that point. Are we supposed to coddle felons to be deemed humane? To me, being humane to my civilization means protecting it from infectious agents. Not doing so would be to let it rot with the gangrenous colonization of an outside influence. Is that humane? You are suggesting it is more noble to be humane to the invaders than to be humane to ourselves. I don't understand that line of thinking.

To suggest that one go get arrested and see if we like being placed in a ridiculous T-shirt presumes we want to break the law first. I’m not going commit a felony, I am law abiding. So why should we treat people who choose to break the law the same as those who are law abiding. Do we give felonious invaders milk and cookies to show how civilized we are? Darwin would have something to say about that. We will eventually be eroded to nothingness if we don't enforce our laws and our border.

 

[Old Fuff]

Well in Arizona there is the law, and then there is the way the law is enforced, and finely there is the way the law is interpreted. I don’t believe that any court in Arizona - and in Cochise County in particular - has ever convicted anyone for doing nothing more then hold a non-resisting illegal alien pending the arrival of law enforcement officers. Some have sought such convictions but haven’t gotten them. If issues of threats, intimidation or abuse - physical or sexual, are involved that’s another matter.

In the present matter, charges were made in the media, and the County Sheriff and Prosecutor’s Office investigated. Apparently other authorities, including the Mexican Counsel in Tucson were also involved, or at least informed. Ultimately they agreed that there was no basis for criminal charges against the Minutemen.

However the Minuteman Movement has dismissed at least one of they’re now former members, not because he committed any crime, but because he violated in-house rules and procedures.

This should be enough to close the matter.

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

shalako wrote:

"I am still hung up back on that point. Are we supposed to coddle felons to be deemed humane?"

there's a difference between coddling them and treating them fairly. go look at the Abu Gharaib (sp?) prison scandal in Iraq for a refresher?

those guys were armed insurgents trying to kill US Military personnel. these guys are unarmed border jumpers. quite a difference in the way you'd treat them, don't you agree?

 

[2nd Amendment]

*lol*

Spread, nobody cares.

Know what else? I just found out a friend of mine died last nite, so guess what? You win. I just sit here at my comp all day and by the very fact of my disagreement with you am an armchair comando. Afterall, your little tempest in a teapot is seriously important in life overall and I can't possibly handle it's right now. Guess that makes you the winner. Enjoy it.