Minuteman Project Volunteers Face Probe

[HankB]

. . . the people volunteering for MMP are dehumanizing the immigrants. Call them illegal, call them aliens, but they're still human beings. Obviously what they did was not professional by any stretch of the imagination. If a bunch of cops did this, THR board members would be screaming bloody murder. (Over a foreign criminal holding a funny T-shirt? I seriously doubt that. Have any THR members been "screaming bloody murder" about Arizona's Sheriff Joe Arpaio issuing pink underwear to convicts in his prisons?) . . .

Funny can also be interpreted as pointing a gun at someone and watching them piss themselves.

Hmmm . . . it would astonish me if most THR members thought to equate the humor of an illegal alien holding a funny T-shirt with the threat of deadly force and a consequent loss of bladder control. You've presented some . . . interesting . . . viewpoints on what's "dehumanizing" and what's funny.

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

2nd Amendment wrote:

"I just found out a friend of mine died last nite, so guess what? You win."

Sorry to hear about your loss.

HankB wrote:

"it would astonish me if most THR members thought to equate the humor of an illegal alien holding a funny T-shirt with the threat of deadly force and a consequent loss of bladder control."

Exactly Hank. the difference between "funny" and "inappropriate" is subjective. i used that merely as an example. notice i didn't say i personally thought it was funny. however, the fact still remains that it is inappropriate.

i hardly think Mr. Barton was REALLY expelled from MMP just because he contacted an illegal alien. moreover, the intent of not contacting the aliens (the rule itself) is probably there to (1) avoid confrontation and (2) avoid incidents that can attract the undue scrutiny of the press.

if that were the case, that merely contacting an illegal alien was grounds for dismissal, then the other MMP volunteers who came to the aid of a sick/injured alien should have been ejected from the group as well.

Mr. Barton was most likely asked to leave MMP because his "humor" was not representative of MMP's mission. certainly this is just my opinion, but i suspect that Mr. Barton was asked to leave MMP because of the undue media attention MMP received from this. if the media didn't get a hold of this, would it have been an issue? would Mr. Barton be asked to leave MMP had the press not written a story about it? some illegal alien going back to Mexico with this t-shirt probably would not have generated this issue, and Mr. Barton would probably still be with MMP.

 

[Art Eatman]

Sorry, Deavis, but I just don't see this as "dehumanizing". Further, I do not see it as "stupid".

There was a wire service article in today's San Angelo paper. It reported that per the videotape of the whole scene, the crook lied about his maltreatment. He didn't know there was an Allan Funt around: "Smile, you're on Candid Camera." If anything is to be learned from this incident, it is that crooks lie.

But if folks work hard enough, that molehill can become a four-page mountain of a thread...

Art

 

[Delmar]

I'm sure glad those fella had a video of the situation-otherwise, some people would be screaming for their heads!

Certainly, lets take the word of an illegal alien over the words of 3 men who fed him, gave him drink, and a $20 bill! Typical lawbreaker-takes the kindness of decent people and then lies out his patoot to the press. How nice.........

For those who think some kind of crime was committed, let them step up to the plate and do what these folks are doing. At least they are doing something about it. Wished I could get the time off to do it myself.

 

[wingman]

From the Office of Congressman Tom Tancredo
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE



WASHINGTON, D.C. - Congressman Tom Tancredo (CO-06) was shocked to learn from Border Patrol sources on the scene that the Mexican Military is transporting would be illegal aliens to safer crossing points in order to avoid the Minuteman.

"President Bush should publicly denounce Mexico's latest act to curb U.S. law," said Tancredo, Chairman of the Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus.

"The President of Mexico is threatening to sue any member of the minuteman who have contact with a Mexican national, threatening to take the U.S. into the International Court of Justice at the Hague over the passage of Prop 200 in Arizona, and is providing transportation to Mexican nationals trying to sneak into the US," added Tancredo. "One could say he is acting in the best interest of his nation. Isn't it unfortunate we cannot say the same thing about President Bush?"

 

[c_yeager]

God help you if you pull this "citizens arrest" nonsense on a person that turns out to be legal. Can you say "civil rights violation"? Hell, if you use force then it becomes kidnapping, and you get yerself a felony, assuming of course that the person your "arresting" isnt one of us and you get shot.

 

[Old Fuff]

Which is the reason that a Citizen's Arrest in Arizona is very rare ...

 

[Werewolf]

Wow!

This Tancredo guy from CO ought to seriously consider running for President in '08.

Anyone know what his stances are on National Defense, 2nd Amendment, Balancing the Budget, Welfare, Public Lands etc? And willing to post them?

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

let's redirect citizen arrest discussion to this newer thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=133895

thanks!

 

[Deavis]

Sorry, Deavis, but I just don't see this as "dehumanizing". Further, I do not see it as "stupid".

Art, you are still completely missing my point. Do the following

1) Sit down
2) Relax
3) Realize that you agree with the MMP, don't like illegal immigration, and I understand that
4) Realize that many people disagree with the MMP, don't mind illegal immigration, and I, unlike you, also realize that
5) Realize you are not a member of #4 and therefore the MMP attempts to highlight the illegal immigration in a issue positive/peaceful manner have absolutely nothing to do with you
6) Realize that your opinion of humane treatment is therfore irrelevant to my point, the goal of the MMP, and that your views are of absolutely no consequence. Only the views of the people who compromise #5 are important
7) Stand up and breath deeply
8) Go about your day secure in your opinion, understanding the the MMP has absolutely nothing to do with you and your views.

This has nothing to do with my views on illegal immigration. The only thing that is important is that the MMP brings awareness to the illegal immigration problem in a non-controversial, peaceful, and wholesome way. Treating illegal aliens poorly/stupidly/inhumanely/fairly, whatever the term you choose for this incident, does NOT accomplish that goal. I repeat, NEGATIVE PUBLICITY does not help the MMP even if they are not in the wrong. See accused rapist example above.

Let me sum it up, one more time, with a really easy example. You are a pedestrain with the right of way at a crossing. Do you:
a) Step out in front of an oncoming car that doesn't see you, knowing that he will be held at fault, and will be responsible for any damages he does to you?
or...
b) Wait a second and let them go, even though you have the right of way, because you realize that a car weighs 4000 lbs and you lose in the larger scheme of things if he hits you.

What is it going to be? Hubris or Intelligence? Just because you are right about something doesn't mean it is always the best course of action to flaunt it.

Fin for me on this one.

 

[Ivy Mike]

 

[johnr]

Everything I have so far is here:
Thunder on the Border-- (Minuteman Project)

 

[gc70]

I do not see Mr. Barton's actions as stupid. Rather, I think his actions were despicable and self-serving because he used the MMP to provide a photo-op for his future political ambitions.

I also do not see the treatment of the Mexican as "dehumanizing." Accepting food and drink and then taking money to pose with a t-shirt sounds like a very agreeable encounter. If anyone disagrees, PLEASE come and "dehumanize" me; I will happily pose with the t-shirt of your choice for $20 per photo.

 

[Art Eatman]

gc70, I missed it about Barton's political ambitions. Please elucidate? I just figured it was a slightly offbeat sense of humor, coupled with some prior thought.

Deavis, I'm known for not being excitable. I guess the last time I had a serious case of the nervous was the two seconds between being told "There's some guy on the Tower shooting at people!" and my disappearing behind a large pecan tree. That was in 1966.

, Art

 

[gc70]

art

re: political ambitions - see page 3, 7th post, by Old Fluff

I am cynical enough to believe someone would do something for a self-serving reason before doing something out of sheer stupidity.

 

[Art Eatman]

Thanx. I just figured it was on a par with these gift-shop tee-shirts saying something like, "My folks went to Mardi Gras and all they brought me was this stupid tee-shirt."

Oh, well. If the border-jumping crook hadn't lied, nobody would have given a darn one way or the other.

Art