More developments with groom shooting story

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I'm not an LEO, so I don't know: does it take seven undercover officers to investigate a strip club?

I would say yes, but only a couple of them would be inside. You are forgetting that the people inside need a back-up unit in case they need to make an arrest and things go south.

Something else to think of when taking into account that they found only 21 of the rounds hit the car, the windows were shot out. If you are shooting into a car intending to hit the occupants, and are in a suppresive fire kind of mood, the window area is where you would be aiming. It is quite possible that some of those missing rounds traveled through one broken window and out the other.

But suppressive fire is not really a good cop tactic in a densly populated area.
 
This may demonstrate one of the several considerations which led my service to swap the M9 carried by the other US military services (although not all their elements), for the Sig P229 .40. When my guys need a sidearm for real, the BGs will most likely be up close and personal and well-armed. If a BG takes 11 hits and lives, your nether regions are apt to be in a crack. While the USCG, along with the rest of the DHS, sadly did not go all the way to the beloved M1911 carried in my day, they now have a handgun much more likely to immobilize a BG with one well-placed hit.
If the shooters in question were capable of making "one well placed hit" they didn't demonstrate it. Assuming no through and throughs, no multiple hits with one bullet, and the driver being the primary target (a lot of assumptions) the shooters got no more than 7 out of 50 (14%) on the actual target (21 in the vehicle - 11 in Guzman - 3 in Benefield = 7 unaccounted for and presumably in Bell).

Coastie, would you honestly ask the brave men and women of the NYPD to go out armed with weapons that would only allowed them to fire 40 or even 20 rounds in the same timeframe, forcing them to reload multiple times to put 18 or 11 of those rounds on target? I, for one, cannot understand why so many posters on THR can show such blatant hatred for law enforcement.
 
I must concede all your points, junyo. Wasn't thinking straight.

Somewhat more seriously, however, Old Farts like me knew, in the Good Ol' Days, that a hit with an M1911 did not have to be "well-placed" to immobilize a BG; arguably the very reason Mr. Browning designed his beautiful piece of machinery. :)
 
With the new info it's still looking bad.


A guy in street clothes trying to get their attention they discover he has a gun. They try to flee Then he announces, possibly not loud enough as they are in a car and scared. It is a bad neighborhood.



Sounds like there is a lot more to be afraid of in NY than just rough areas.
 
If you can get past the sensationalized writing popular with the NY Post, here's another article that answers some of the questions raised in this thread. It describes a chaotic scene the backup officers encountered and paints a somewhat critical picture of the three shooting victims -- and their past criminal records (which, of course, isn't germane to the conversation...) :cool:

NYPost said:
Around the same time, the undercover said he heard [the 'groom']Bell's friend Joseph Guzman tell his buddies, "Yo, get my gun! Get my gun! Let's get my gun from the car! Yeah, we're gonna f- - - him up!" the sources said.

Still doesn't quite answer why one officer fired 31 times...
 
Wouldn't it be reasonable to expect that an undercover officer that is trying to approach suspects have his badge out on display? Otherwise, why not just pull up in a marked cruiser?

Why would the undercover officer be the one to approach them? Why wouldn't a backup team in uniform and marked cruiser pull up and stop them? That would seem to be much safer. Identity would not be an issue.
 
They did hit nearby homes...

The officers' shots struck the men's car 21 times. The wild gunfire hit nearby homes and shattered windows at a train station, though no residents were injured.

-DEEPTI HAJELA, Associated Press

Probably because it was so late at night, is the only reason why there were no injuries. Most people were probably prone in beds, often on the upper floors of rowhouses or higher up in apartments. If it'd been earlier in the night...
 
Here is a story from fox with a little more info: Fox News story

NEW YORK — New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg on Monday promised a "fair and thorough" investigation after a groom was killed on his wedding day and two others were injured in an undercover police operation outside a city strip club.

Bloomberg met with NYPD Commissioner Raymond Kelly Monday to discuss how undercover officers shot Sean Bell, 23, and two of his friends as they celebrated his last night as a bachelor outside of the Kalua Cabaret strip club in Queens, N.Y. early Saturday morning. Bell, who was unarmed, was set to marry his high-school sweetheart and the mother of his two young daughters later that day.

Bloomberg and his aides were in contact with Bell's family and community leaders throughout the weekend to update them on the investigation and receive their feedback.

Police could not question the officers who fired at the men because the district attorney must first complete an investigation, Kelly said.

Chief police spokesman Paul Browne on Sunday confirmed reports that the five officers who fired were placed on paid administrative leave and had their guns removed, a procedure that is administrative but not disciplinary, while the investigation goes on.

The officers will remain on leave "until we learn more about the circumstances of the shooting," Browne said. "There are still a number of unanswered questions."

The New York Post reported new details of the events, including how the undercover cop at one point climbing onto the hood of Bell's car — his gun drawn and his police shield around his neck — screaming, "Police! Turn off your car! Let me see your hands!" according to sources who talked to some of the cops involved in the shooting.

When Bell then tried to run down the plainclothes officer — twice — the cop began shooting, with some of his 11 bullets piercing the rear window of the man's Nissan Altima, the sources said.

[bThis left the cop's backup unit — which was just arriving on the scene amid shattering glass and the undercover's shouts of "He's got a gun!" — thinking they were being fired upon from inside the vehicle. That's when they returned fire with another 39 bullets. One 12-year veteran, a narcotics detective, pumped 31 bullets, authorities said.

The sources recounted step-by-step how quickly things spiraled out of control after a dispute inside the club involving one of Bell's associates.

According to the sources, two undercovers were at the strip joint as part of the NYPD's new Club Enforcement Initiative. The program was started after the July slaying of 18-year-old Jennifer Moore of New Jersey, who partied at a New York club before being abducted, raped and killed in a Weehawken, N.J., hotel.

The undercovers, who usually worked in Manhattan, were on the last night of their two-month Queens detail to try to nail the Kalua and other clubs on such violations as drugs and underage prostitution.

Inside the club, one of the plainclothes cops sat next to a woman he thought was a hooker and might proposition him, the sources said.

Suddenly, a burly man approached them and told the woman that he had heard she had gotten into a fight with a group of guys earlier in the club. It was unclear what it was over.

The man said, "'Don't worry, baby, I got you covered,' and he takes her hand, and he rubs it across [the gun in] his waistband," a source said. "Then he tells her, 'That's what I'm here for.'"

It's unclear how the man smuggled his weapon past the metal detector outside the club. He likely was a regular who knew the bouncer at the door and may have worked there part time, helping with security, the sources said.

The undercover then went outside the club and radioed his backup to tell them there was a man inside with a gun. It was around 3:30 a.m.

While the undercover was outside, the suspect came out along with the girl and others, since it was around closing time.

The undercover watched as an argument erupted between Bell's group, which included three male pals and the beefy man with the gun, and four other men — with the woman in the middle of them, the sources said.

The woman was overheard saying to the men arguing with Bell's pals, "I'm not doing you all. I'll do one or two, but not all," according to the sources.

Around the same time, the undercover said he heard Bell's friend Joseph Guzman tell his buddies, "Yo, get my gun! Get my gun! Let's get my gun from the car! Yeah, we're gonna f- - - him up!" the sources said.

The undercover, thinking there was about to be a drive-by shooting in front of the club involving Bell's group, followed Guzman, Bell and two others to their car.

"It's getting hot! Something's going to happen! Something's going down!" the undercover radioed to his backup.

He hurried to the front of Bell's Altima, which was parked on the side of a nearby street, and jumped in front of it.

That's when the undercover put his right leg up on the hood of the Altima and began screaming that he was a cop, the sources said.

The cop was leaning over the hood of the car to try to see the hands of the people inside and make sure they didn't have any guns, they said. But Bell floored the gas pedal and headed for the cop, the sources said, striking him and badly cutting his knee.

One of the Altima's passengers — who possibly had a gun — jumped out of the back of the car, the sources said.

Around the same time, an unmarked Toyota Camry driven by a plainclothes police lieutenant and another cop behind him pulled up, but overshot Bell's car. A police van with an officer and the narcotics detective then managed to block Bell's car in.

Bell's Altima first struck the police van in the driver's desperate bid to escape, then backed up and struck the roll-down metal doors of a commercial building behind him. He then revved his car again toward the undercover — which prompted the cop to scream, "He's got a gun!" and start firing, according to the sources, with the bullets passing through Bell's car.

"The undercover thought they had more than one gun. He thought they would do anything to get away. He was yelling, 'Let me see your hands!'" one source said.

The other cops, thinking they were under attack, started firing at the car, too.

At one point, the detective thought his gun had jammed and so reloaded his magazine and emptied the clip again at the car, firing 31 bullets.


Bell was killed, Guzman critically injured, and a third friend, Trent Benefield, was shot. They are expected to live.

Benefield later told a friend from his hospital bed that he and his buddies didn't know the undercovers were cops.

He told investigators, "I got into the car, and there was all this shooting."

It was unclear when the other four men who were originally fighting with Bell and his pals fled the scene. They were spotted leaving in a black SUV.

Bell had been arrested three times in the past: twice for drugs and one on a gun rap in a case that was sealed. Guzman has been busted nine times, including for armed robbery. He spent two stretches in state prison in the '90s. Benefield has a sealed record as a juvenile for gun possession and robbery.

Some marijuana was later found near the Altima, and investigators believe that it may have been tossed out by the group before the gunfire. Two bullet casings also were recovered from the Altima, although cops said they do not believe they were from a police gun.

The shooting of Bell, who was black, has ignited racial tensions in the city — even though the cops involved included two blacks, a Hispanic and two whites.

The five cops who fired shots were put on administrative duty. Commissioner Kelly said it was the first time that any of the officers were involved in a shooting.

Detectives Endowment Association President Michael Palladino said the cops were justified in firing off a total of 50 bullets at unarmed men because Bell was using his car as a lethal weapon.

"Once the threat ended, so did the shooting."

A source told The Post: "They [the cops] feel completely sad about what happened. They made a decision, and they're going to live with it."

On Sunday, the group 100 Blacks in Law Enforcement Who Care said it is issuing a vote of no confidence in Kelly. It also wants the removal of the Organized Crime Control Bureau chief, Anthony Izzo, who it says created the undercover unit involved in the incident.

Browne said Sunday, "We are continuing to look for additional witnesses to shed light on the incident and assisting the district attorney's office with its investigation."

Community leaders are planning a Dec. 6 rally at police headquarters.

Emphasis mine
 
"Except that if we believe the reporting in the NY Post story, the undercover officer identified himself to the men prior to being struck and they could not have seen the car they struck since it wasn't struck until it drove around the corner as they were driving away."

I'm sorry, but I've seen this sort of thing too often. After something like this has occurred, everyone "remembers" doing and saying things that no one else can verify. Sometimes that is because of the sensory overload brought on by the situation. Sometimes it's because people just want to cover their butts. Until there is some sort of confirmation that the officer did indeed identify himself his story is just that... a story. If, because the only witness is dead, the story can't be verified... Well, DAs frequently convict perfectly honest people simply because their story can't be confirmed.
I wasn't there of course, but I'm reasonably certain that the two survivors were kept apart after they were taken into custody while the officers all went back to the station in a single car.
 
It describes a chaotic scene the backup officers encountered and paints a somewhat critical picture of the three shooting victims -- and their past criminal records (which, of course, isn't germane to the conversation...)
While I would agree that the criminal records of the victims, if not known to the LEOs, is probably not germane, I would submit that, on the other hand, the apparently well-known nature of the neighborhood can indeed be germane. It can go to the guts of a decision by the authorities, whether that be NYPD Internal Affairs or, if it should go that far, a grand jury, since that is relevant to the inevitable question about the state of mind of the LEOs at the time, and whether or not their conduct was unreasonable under the circumstances. This is possibly the most critical legal issue lurking.
 
The greatest thing I just read this morning about the incident, is that some woman just came forward, and stated that she saw the whole thing, "the cops screached around the corner, and just opened up on the car for no reason."

Maybe she is this incidents version of Tawana Brawley.

Michael
 
"Yo, get my gun! Get my gun! Let's get my gun from the car! Yeah, we're gonna f- - - him up!"
I don't know about LEOs but when I hear someone say this kind of thing, and they aren't clearly joking,I believe them!!
One of the Altima's passengers — who possibly had a gun— jumped out of the back of the car, the sources said.
Means nothing without evidence of such.
Two bullet casings also were recovered from the Altima, although cops said they do not believe they were from a police gun.
Well here's some possible evidence.

caveat - I am assuming the above is indeed fact.

Well considering these 4 party animals had just picked a gun fight, while trying to pick up a hooker, I suppose no one should be surprised when they got one. They said there was a gun in the car and once they were in there I think the cops have to assume they have one, and at 4am while riding on the hood of a moving car alot of things may look like a gun even if there isn't one present.

If it is determined that those 2 casings didn't come from the officers guns we have a completely different story.

However I think in the court of public opinion no matter how much evidence comes out supporting the actions of the officers this will remain a "Racist Cops Shoot Unarmed Black Men" story. And the MSM will make sure of it.
 
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,232079,00.html "He then revved his car again toward the undercover — which prompted the cop to scream, "He's got a gun!" and start firing, according to the sources, with the bullets passing through Bell's car."

he revved his car and that led the cop to think he had a gun? Which in turn led to the shooting? *** that makes no rational sense.
 
Somebody

pointed out that weapons knowledge is a small part of police work, yes, but it is a huge part of being armed.
 
I wonder how long it'll be before they lose the wimpy 9mm cartridge, and arm their undercovers with BARs...

I wonder how many folks are gonna get 'jacked now because they hesitate to get away from the 'jacker...
 
Stuff happens.
Quickly at times.
Fog of War and all that.

Good shoot, bad shoot, any way you cut it, it's gonna cost the taxpayers of NYC a bundle and there'll be some wealthy attorneys when all is said and done.

As for everything else Legal and Political... Mayor Bloomberg's got more fuel for his anti-gun propaganda machine.
 
he revved his car and that led the cop to think he had a gun? Which in turn led to the shooting? *** that makes no rational sense.

Unless this is the officer's way of satisfying the department policy of not firing on cars that don't pose any danger except running you down(how stupid is that?!). Like Uncle Jimbo's "He's coming right for us!!"
 
As for everything else Legal and Political... Mayor Bloomberg's got more fuel for his anti-gun propaganda machine.
Unfortunately no matter the outcome it will indeed give him more ammo for his anti-gun campaign.
 
However I think in the court of public opinion no matter how much evidence comes out supporting the actions of the officers this will remain a "Racist Cops Shoot Unarmed Black Men" story. And the MSM will make sure of it.
With the exception of accusations of racism, I don't see what's wrong with that headline at this point. The sole evidence that the dead/injured had a weapon is two shell casings of unknown origin/timeframe and a third passenger who's as tangible as the 'real killer' that OJ's been searching for. And you have to love the logic of preventing a pontential drive-by shooting by performing an actual shooting while being driven by. And last time I checked, picking up a hooker wasn't a capital offense. Anyone arrested? Charged with solicitation or pandering? If we're gonna give the officers the benefit of the doubt it seems a bit early for the customary smear of the dead and wounded.

Prediction: By tomorrow they will have found drugs and kiddie porn or nuclear secrets and the phone number to the Iranian Embassy in the car. Maybe a couple of outstanding warrants.
 
Propoganda

Yeah.

We gotta ban assault vocal cords. Or maybe just reclassify "speech about guns" as assault.

The First Amendment has got to go. When an undercover agent hears talk about guns, he needs to be able to take pre-emptive action. After all, talk about guns clearly means you're about to be shot.

I can see it now: "We must ban speech that contains the word "gun" or synonyms for it. If only this word had been banned before the shooting, all this tragedy could have been spared."
 
With the exception of accusations of racism, I don't see what's wrong with that headline at this point.

The accusations of racism was the entire point of the statement you quoted. It's my belief that people will make a racial issue even if there isn't one.

The sole evidence that the dead/injured had a weapon...
That would be why I included
caveat - I am assuming the above is indeed fact.
prior to my statements.
 
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