Mountain lions (or big dogs) protection...any regular defense HP loads is adequate???
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rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Yes.
Might consider a DA revolver too.
It's hard to clear a stove-pipe jam with a big mean animal chewing on the left arm you are using to keep it from tearing out your throat!
rc
Might consider a DA revolver too.
It's hard to clear a stove-pipe jam with a big mean animal chewing on the left arm you are using to keep it from tearing out your throat!
rc
I Made A Poll Years Ago At the Firing line about this it got locked and well here it is..
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263999
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263999
jaydubya
Member
I agree that most centerfire handgun cartridges will kill large dogs and mountain lions -- eventually. For more rapid kills, I'd want at least a .38 sp or 9 x 19 hollow point, but would prefer a 357 magnum. And all this discussion applies only if you see the large dog/mountain lion coming. Seeing large dogs coming seldom will be a problem because they are quite noisy about it. Mountain lions, on the other hand, ambush their prey, so seeing them coming probably would be a problem.
Cordially, Jack
Cordially, Jack
ANY load isn't adequate. Some are. Many are designed for immediate maximum expansion, and animals aren't built exactly like humans. We're really thin-skinned and soft on the outside.
Some defense loads (e.g. DPX) have paid more attention to penetration lately. I figure they're a better choice.
Some defense loads (e.g. DPX) have paid more attention to penetration lately. I figure they're a better choice.
J. Parker
Member
I agree with Oro......when I'm in the woods of Washington State I carry a 357 magnum with Federal 180gr CastCores. If you want a defensive revolver against Cougar or Black bear I would go at the least with a 357 magnum. Doubletapammo.com makes a "woods load" as does buffalobore and others. Doubletapammo also makes "woods loads" for a 45acp semi-auto. Should be good penetration but I still like a 357 magnum revolver.
No,no,no hollowpoints in the woods for cougar or black bear protection. Solid bullets that penetrate deep.
~John
No,no,no hollowpoints in the woods for cougar or black bear protection. Solid bullets that penetrate deep.
~John
Mountain lions (or big dogs) protection
The only time I've ever fired a weapon in self defense was against the "alpha" in a pack of feral dogs. He was big and mostly Rottweiler, from his looks and coloration. I got him straight through the boiler room with a 22LR (probably a MiniMag, IIRC) at about 30-40 yards and he dropped immediately. I know a guy who just a couple of months ago had to deal with a large unfriendly cougar. He needed several shots with a 357 to bring him down.
Shot placement trumps caliber.
That said, neither dogs (even big ones) or cougars are heavily built critters. I think any reasonable handgun will take them with good shot placement.
The only time I've ever fired a weapon in self defense was against the "alpha" in a pack of feral dogs. He was big and mostly Rottweiler, from his looks and coloration. I got him straight through the boiler room with a 22LR (probably a MiniMag, IIRC) at about 30-40 yards and he dropped immediately. I know a guy who just a couple of months ago had to deal with a large unfriendly cougar. He needed several shots with a 357 to bring him down.
Shot placement trumps caliber.
That said, neither dogs (even big ones) or cougars are heavily built critters. I think any reasonable handgun will take them with good shot placement.
Well they call it a Cougar but they are the same...right?
My roommates Dad shot a Cougar in some woods on their property just NW of Galesburg, IL. I didn't believe it until I came down and saw the body. Something about the DNR releasing some to control coyotes now there are a lot of them? Or maybe just 2...either way I'm going to kill one or be killed. JK about the be killed part.
My roommates Dad shot a Cougar in some woods on their property just NW of Galesburg, IL. I didn't believe it until I came down and saw the body. Something about the DNR releasing some to control coyotes now there are a lot of them? Or maybe just 2...either way I'm going to kill one or be killed. JK about the be killed part.
Wolfeye
Member
During one hike in SE Alaska, my dad & I came across a small pack of wild dogs - definitely not wolves, since we could see the remains of a rope leash on one. They got too close, so Dad shot one with his .357 (probably FMJ of some kind... I've never known him to use hardcasts). I'd call that dog large-ish; not a brute like a mastiff, more like a husky mutt. Believe me, the round was more than adequate, and the effects were immediate. It didn't get far before it dropped, and the rest of the pack was scared off by the shot.
I'd say a caliber as low as .38+p or 9mm would suffice, with a nod towards stiff rounds that penetrate well. I think an expanding round could also work for animals that size, assuming the bullet's a quality make and we're not talking about a snubbie gun here. Medium barrel, at least. If all I had to worry about were dogs & big cats, I'd feel protected enough carrying .38+p DPX in a 4" revolver. Bigger animals than that, I'd want .357 magnum or bigger with hardcast bullets.
I'd say a caliber as low as .38+p or 9mm would suffice, with a nod towards stiff rounds that penetrate well. I think an expanding round could also work for animals that size, assuming the bullet's a quality make and we're not talking about a snubbie gun here. Medium barrel, at least. If all I had to worry about were dogs & big cats, I'd feel protected enough carrying .38+p DPX in a 4" revolver. Bigger animals than that, I'd want .357 magnum or bigger with hardcast bullets.
woad_yurt
Member
IMO, a good 9MM would do a bang up job. There's some seriously powerful ammo out there. Plus, there's always the capacity advantage. It all depends, however, upon the dependability of your gun. I have a Star 30MI that has never jammed on me since I've had it (thousands of rounds.) I'd feel pretty confident with it.
A .38 SPL my be a bit soft, I think, for my tastes. Don't get me wrong, I love .38 SPL. I reload it and my bedside gun, which is also my favorite shooter, is a Model 10. It's just that snarling large wild animals seem to be high on the muscle and adrenalin scale, compared to humans. Thus I'd want the extra ft lbs of the 9MM. During a mauling, 17+1 sounds pretty appealing.
Some of the hotter .45 loads would do well, too, I guess. An M1917 would be a good choice. A semi-auto, if very jamless, would even be better.
I have no experience with a .40 so I'll remain mum about it.
A .38 SPL my be a bit soft, I think, for my tastes. Don't get me wrong, I love .38 SPL. I reload it and my bedside gun, which is also my favorite shooter, is a Model 10. It's just that snarling large wild animals seem to be high on the muscle and adrenalin scale, compared to humans. Thus I'd want the extra ft lbs of the 9MM. During a mauling, 17+1 sounds pretty appealing.
Some of the hotter .45 loads would do well, too, I guess. An M1917 would be a good choice. A semi-auto, if very jamless, would even be better.
I have no experience with a .40 so I'll remain mum about it.
kanewpadle
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Hollow point don't seem to work very well against larger dogs or mountain lions. They have a much tougher hide than we do. Hollow points will clog and not penetrate far enough.
Hardcast loads like Double Tap or Buffalo Bore work good. A heavy fmj round works good to.
Hardcast loads like Double Tap or Buffalo Bore work good. A heavy fmj round works good to.
jad0110
Member
Exactly. Shot placement is a must with ANY caliber on an animal because the psycological component that causes humans to fall down upon being shot (sometimes) just isn't there in animals. And "knock down power" does not exist, period, even with rifles.
So carry a RELIABLE sidearm that you are most confident with because it is accurate in your hands and you are well practiced with. I'd feel better carrying my 4" S&W Model 15 loaded with 158 grain +Ps 38s than my Ruger Redhawk in .44 Mag, simply because I'm a better shot with the 15 and I a lot more experience with it.
A friend of mine went jogging a while back with a .38 Police Special and a cougar tag. After a couple hour chase, he trailed the cougar to it's den. It jumped out and he shot and missed. It wheeled to jump again and he shot again - killing the cat.
Google "Flint Stearns" and you will find the story.
Google "Flint Stearns" and you will find the story.
MCgunner
Member
.38-9x19 is plenty. Anything you'd use for self defense. As for "shot placement"...well...DUH! I mean, you can't shoot 'em in the foot with a .458 and kill 'em. 
Gryffydd
Member
Obviously it's shot placement that matters. But to actually answer the OP's question, yes, typical self defense hollow points will be sufficient for cougars and dogs. They are not walking tanks like bears supposedly are. I would lean more towards the hollow points that have a good reputation for penetration--XTPs, DPX, Golden Sabers etc. I'd want as much power as possible for either. But from a penetration stand point JHPs will be fine.
On the other hand, I'm sure many here can share the difficulty they've had dispatching domestic tom cats. However, that's not a function of the bullet design.
On the other hand, I'm sure many here can share the difficulty they've had dispatching domestic tom cats. However, that's not a function of the bullet design.
Joe Demko
Member
Some years back, my dad and a friend of his eliminated a whole pack of feral dogs using just .22's. After my dad dropped the first one, with a single shot, the rest tried to flee and the process became an exercise in rapid fire. Some of the ones they got on the run needed shot a couple times. These were dogs in the same size range as coyotes.
Guillermo
member
Dogs are easily handled with standard self defense stuff. Cougars are big fast and tough.
As mentioned, they attack with shocking speed and not much noise. It is rare when a cougar attacks and the victim oft does not clear leather.
I always carry hiking, usually a 357 revolver. I use standard defense rounds (I think Gold Dots are in it right now). They are designed for the most dangerous animal that I am likely to have a problem with...the North American Primate.
As mentioned, they attack with shocking speed and not much noise. It is rare when a cougar attacks and the victim oft does not clear leather.
I always carry hiking, usually a 357 revolver. I use standard defense rounds (I think Gold Dots are in it right now). They are designed for the most dangerous animal that I am likely to have a problem with...the North American Primate.
Dogs are not all created equal. Some are "walking tanks." And they can be really fast, as well.
This guy is an expensive, trained rare breed, so you won't find him running around in the woods. Fortunately. Apparently he's good with kids, too.
I guess I'm just saying, don't think all dogs would be as easy to take down as coyote-like feral ones, or that you'd get to shoot them as they're running away.
http://gargoylebulldogs.com
This guy is an expensive, trained rare breed, so you won't find him running around in the woods. Fortunately. Apparently he's good with kids, too.
I guess I'm just saying, don't think all dogs would be as easy to take down as coyote-like feral ones, or that you'd get to shoot them as they're running away.
http://gargoylebulldogs.com
Marlin 45 carbine
Member
I have been attacked several times by feral dogs hereabouts. one large group of them had killed a whole herd of sheep that ran into a pool of standing water near the river trying to flee from them. they killed 32 sheep in one night.
I killed several of the pack with .22LR pistols loaded with Mini Mags or SuperX's. I'm lucky the rest fled when I began shooting as they required multiple shots - I was shooting rapidly at COM which will not quickly drop a large dog.
quite a few others (some of these were dogs that were just roaming in a pack - not really feral dogs) I shot and killed with a Ruger 10/22 loaded with a Butler Creek 25 shot magazine. some of these went down with one well placed shot - I'm better with a rifle and of course the .22LR has more 'punch' when fired from a rifle. usually the range was about 25 yds but as close as 15 feet.
I lost count but likely accounted for 30 + dogs sized up to 100 lbs of all breeds. I used MiniMags, SuperX and YellowJacket ammo. I don't trust the CCI Stinger to feed reliably.
IMO a .22 Mag would be better but I don't have one. I have since used my Marlin Camp guns in 9mmPara and .45acp to account for several more - feral dogs area big problem in WNC, Upstate SC and N.E. Georgia - the areas that I hunt.
that hot loaded (handload) .45acp +P Golden Saber slug will drop 'em right now let me tell ya. the +P 9mmPara is not quite as good but close and a neck shot is DRT when the base of skull/spine is hit.
I killed several of the pack with .22LR pistols loaded with Mini Mags or SuperX's. I'm lucky the rest fled when I began shooting as they required multiple shots - I was shooting rapidly at COM which will not quickly drop a large dog.
quite a few others (some of these were dogs that were just roaming in a pack - not really feral dogs) I shot and killed with a Ruger 10/22 loaded with a Butler Creek 25 shot magazine. some of these went down with one well placed shot - I'm better with a rifle and of course the .22LR has more 'punch' when fired from a rifle. usually the range was about 25 yds but as close as 15 feet.
I lost count but likely accounted for 30 + dogs sized up to 100 lbs of all breeds. I used MiniMags, SuperX and YellowJacket ammo. I don't trust the CCI Stinger to feed reliably.
IMO a .22 Mag would be better but I don't have one. I have since used my Marlin Camp guns in 9mmPara and .45acp to account for several more - feral dogs area big problem in WNC, Upstate SC and N.E. Georgia - the areas that I hunt.
that hot loaded (handload) .45acp +P Golden Saber slug will drop 'em right now let me tell ya. the +P 9mmPara is not quite as good but close and a neck shot is DRT when the base of skull/spine is hit.
Guillermo
member
Armed Bear
That is a COOL dog!!!
That is a COOL dog!!!
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