Muzzle control & mag changes (mutually exlusive?)

[JohnKSa]

Is it ok to point a loaded gun at the sky while reloading?

Because this seems to be common for IDPA shooters. I recently watched a DVD bunch of big name shooters (Rob Leatham, Bill Wilson, Hackathorn, Nowlin, Rauch, etc.) in one of the early IDPA matches. They ALL pointed the gun up at a 45 degree angle or more during reloads. Clearly the gun was not pointed at the backstop.

Some of these reloads were mandatory reloads--meaning that the gun had a round chambered during the reload. How can pointing a loaded gun over the backstop be acceptable?

I chided some shooters for this practice during a pseudo-IDPA match we held recently--was I wrong?

It's certainly POSSIBLE to reload while keeping the muzzle pointed at the backstop (or threat if you want to extend this to the real world). I fiddled around with this for a couple of hours last night and I can't see that it causes undue delay to maintain muzzle control during a reload.

So what's the deal?

 

[Pilgrim]

Most shooters find it faster, and easier, to reach the magazine release button on a semi-auto by turning it slightly towards them. If they are doing it right, their trigger finger will not be on the trigger, but alongside the frame.

Pilgrim

 

[JohnKSa]

I agree that it's often necessary to shift the grip on the gun, or turn the gun a bit. I also agree that the finger must be off the trigger.

But doesn't the shooter still have the responsibility to keep the firearm pointed downrange/at the threat during a reload?

Muzzle control is supposed to be one of the primary rules of gun safety, but nearly all the competitors (if not all) violated this rule. And during the retention reloads, they violated the rule with a loaded gun. (Round in the chamber.)

Is "faster and easier" really enough of a justification for pointing a loaded gun over/away from the backstop?

 

[1911user]

That's a standard reload.

There is no requirement to keep the pistol pointed at a berm at all times in IDPA or USPSA. If the shooter points the pistol any further back than 90 degrees from downrange then they are DisQualified for the match. That 90 degrees extends vertically also. Range officers get unhappy very quickly if someone does not keep their finger out of the triggerguard while reloading. That's the main thing they watch during a reload.

Revolver shooters are the ones who have difficulty with the vertical 90 degree rule. Downrange to straight up is OK, but any further back is an early trip home and very easy to do on a revolver. Quick ejection without pointing the revolver past vertical is a challenge at times and revolver shooters are at a disadvantage most of the time so reload speed is crucial. You may argue that the cylinder is open on a revolver (and some ROs give latitude because of this), but the rules apply equally to revolvers and autos.

You may feel it is unsafe, but those are the national rules. Anything tighter would be a local rule and may (or may not) conflict with national standards. I feel comfortable saying no important matches would be shot using tighter rules.

 

[JohnKSa]

...those are the national rules.

Ok, but my question was intended to be more about gun safety than match rules.

I guess what I'm really asking is "Does everyone think it is ok to point a loaded gun away from or over the backstop?"

 

[Sinsaba]

IF ... the gun were to discharge. Is there any real chance of someone being hit?

 

[Chris Rhines]

I guess what I'm really asking is "Does everyone think it is ok to point a loaded gun away from or over the backstop?"

I don't see it as a major problem.

- Chris

 

[WvaBill]

It's certainly POSSIBLE to reload while keeping the muzzle pointed at the backstop (or threat if you want to extend this to the real world).

If you are pointed at the threat, then how safe will it be to concentrate on the mag change while pointed at a dynamic threat. I would think upward would be more safe in a "real" situation. Then in a real situation, perfect yields to good enough.

 

[pauli]

my perspective: if you can't maintain muzzle discipline, i don't want to be shooting with you.

 

[JohnKSa]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=186803

It appears that many people here agree with me. I wonder how the "point at the sky reloads" got to be so commonplace that no one even worries about them anymore?

 

[ShackleMeNot]

This is one area where square ranges reinforce bad habits. There is no “downrange” to keep your muzzle safely pointed in a mall parking lot. There are no berms in the real world. The truth is a “safe” direction is where ever you can find one. I reload muzzle up.

 

[JohnKSa]

So, I guess it comes down to weighing these two against each other...


Pointing the gun at the threat during the reload
Reload is a bit harder
AD will go towards threat (is this good or bad)


Pointing the gun at the air during the reload
Reload is a bit easier
AD will go who knows where (this is bad--but is it worse than above?)

 

[Gordon]

I gave up using the strong side hand thumb to operate the magazine release many years ago . Now I can point the muzzle where I want as the weak hand attends to the magazine change. No extended slide stops or mag releases necessary now! The strong hand points the gun, operates the safety and pulls the trigger- much simpler for me. Of course I have a different scheme for one handed drills.
The bottom line is muzzle always in a safe direction , where ever that is, thats why I don't use a shoulder holster or cross draw holster around people (like on a range) anymore.

 

[crofrog]

+1 for Shacklemenot

Also, There are 4 rules for a reason...

 

[Zak Smith]

If it's good enough for USPSA, then it is safe enough.

 

[ShackleMeNot]

Pointing the gun at the threat during the reload
Reload is a bit harder
AD will go towards threat (is this good or bad)


Pointing the gun at the air during the reload
Reload is a bit easier
AD will go who knows where (this is bad--but is it worse than above?)

Pointing your gun TOWARDS the threat doesn't guarantee that if you fire you are going to hit the threat. It means you just sent a round in that direction that may or may not hit an attacker. If you aren't actively using your sights while reloading you can't confirm where you are going to hit.

To frame it like a round fired from an extended and pointed reloading position is automatically going to hit the bad guy and not the kid 15 feet behind him is a little presumptive. The bottom line is you don’t know where that round is going either but you do know it’s going to travel parallel to the ground until it hits something.

The safest muzzle directions when you aren’t on a square shooting range tend to be muzzle up or muzzle down.

 

[sacp81170a]

The reason I always heard for keeping the weapon pointed at the BG during a reload is so that he's less likely to realize that you've run dry and are reloading. Sounds like bull to me. If you're using sound tactics, you'll be behind cover by the time you need to reload.

BTW, since I'm a lefty, I simply use the middle finger of my left hand to hit the mag release. This is actually easier since I don't have to shift the weapon in my hand (no pointing over the berm) and leaves my off hand free to go for a fresh mag instead of operating the mag release. I see no need to change the mag release to the "wrong" side of the frame on purpose. Try it one time left handed, and you'll find that most pistols' mag release can be easily operated by the middle finger of the shooting hand. It helps your leverage if your index finger is braced on the slide during the process, which is right where it should be. I don't know if any other lefties use this technique, but it works for me.