Did a good Thing Today

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As ZeSpectre said though, you have placed yourself (and those around you) in the middle of it, and often times way past the end of the situation between the nut and his family, he will remember you and focus in on you as that object that stood between him and what he wanted. Please be careful for a while. His anger towards his family will (hopefuly) deminish, but you as a target, may be high on his list for a long time.
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I know. :uhoh: I still think I did the right thing. I am more aware of my surroundings now than I have ever been in my entire life. My wife carries too and is not someone a person interested in living a long life would ever mess with. We both do Steel Challenge and Run & Gun or a 3-Gun match at least once a month. We are not sheep and would never let someone harm a friend or family member if we can help. We are citizens of this country and it is our duty to not stand by and watch when we can help. I've always said that, I do my best to live my life that way and teach others to do the same. So yes, we will be helping the mom get a weapon and help her learn to use it. My wife is getting the CCW paperwork for her and I'll let her try some of my guns to see what she is comfortable with.
 
I'd watch my back, never know what the bonehead ex is capable of...

People think this stuff only happens in big cities. We had a situation like this across the street from us... my neighbor phoned 911 and no one showed up.

We have a Marshal and he didn't show up either. My Sheriff is ~ 40 minutes away.

Eventually the people fighting left, we have no idea what happened afterwards.
 
When I commanded him to stop and he saw my hand on my gun it was like someone puled the plug on him.
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Classic reaction for the bully type. When confronted with an uncertain situation, their cowardice wins out and they don't push. Still pays to be vigilant, but it sounds like you took the wind out of his sails at just the right moment. The problem with bullies is that they don't seem to get the fact that some people are no longer willing to be bullied. You, as a stranger, were an unknown quantity and so he didn't know how far he could push you.

He believes he knows how far he can push his victim of 20+ years and she is still probably vulnerable to him in this regard. Sounds like she needs to get some counseling from a battered women's advocacy agency ASAP. You can help her get the gun, the training and the CHL, but only she can come up with the will to use it. Counseling will help her find it.

Good job!
 
Good job. I'm just afraid of what would have happened if he attacked you with no deadly force, I think some OC is in order, but other then that, you kept a nice lady from being clobered by a crazy man, and that's great!
 
Get a lawyer immediately. It is possible that he could file a complaint that could put you in jail and you need to get ahead of that. File a restraining order on your own part to keep him away from you or your wife or your family.
 
California??

CCW??

You must be fortunate enough to live in one of the few California counties where the Sheriff will issue a CCW to the peasants. Most won't.

As others have said, you are now in the middle of a very volatile situation.

Best of luck to you and your friends.

L.W.
 
spencerhut ~

Goodonya for stepping up to the plate and doing what needs to be done.

Gotta echo what hso said -- a talk with a lawyer about your own legal situation right now would be a very smart move on your part. If you are able to get a restraining order against the guy, you probably should. Even if not, all the same advice that ZeSpectre gave for your friend about getting a recorder & tracking all contact with the guy, also applies to you & yours. Paper trails are a good thing when dealing with manipulative bullies (and that's what a abusive spouse is, an manipulative bully).

Good luck to you all. And ... thanks for being a good citizen.

pax
 
Again, I think you did a great job. I do not want to belittle that at all. But, I would still like to hear options for people who are NOT 6'+, 200+ lbs, ex-Marines, with hand-to-hand training, and experience restraining others. I am not "tiny", but I do not have training to go H2H with someone who outweighs me by 50+ lbs of muscle.

I am 6'3" 200 and he is ~6' 250. I forgot to mention he is a body builder and very likely on steroids. I am an ex Marine and would have stopped him physically without deadly force if I had to, I did not.
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You sound SO SURE that you would have easily subdued him that having other options/strategies is not considered before H2H? Is it possible that he could have been on drugs? Is it possible that he could have an extensive fighting background, one which dwarfs your experience? I know many people can out-fight me, so I would still like to hear what my options may be.

I am frustrated... Sometimes I feel like I should stop carrying. Why? I cannot legally pull a gun on 1 or 2 BIG (unarmed) guys who are coming after me. I KNOW they will pound me into the ground, and then my gun is vulnerable. Still, the threat of death is not present. Any help? :confused:

P.S. I do carry OC, but the 2oz container I have now is just too big to carry without a jacket.
 
I am fortunate to be an intimidating figure, or so I'm told. :scrutiny: Going H2H is not high on my list of what I want to do in this situation. I think the pepper spray option is much better, and I'm considering getting some now. But I must admit the reason I never got pepper spray before now is that I know what it does and know I can (and have) by pure willpower not let tear gas stop me. Don't get me wrong, it sucks, some of you know.;) But most people that have been though Basic Training can mentally overcome tear gas. I think I've always thought the pepper spray option was not real reliable with a high/wacko/determined attacker.
As far as him getting my weapon . . . I was ready to throw it behind me into the highway if I needed to go H2H with him. After I am as sure as I can be he is not armed. Not great I know. But rolling around with him on the ground trying to get my weapon is not good either. I figured if I threw the gun in the road I could stop him from getting it and fight it out. Hopefully once the fight started one of the passing sheeple would finally stop and stare or God forbid help.
But, let's keep in mind the sight of my weapon still in it's holster and my "command" voice kept the situation under control. Anything *could* have happened, hell I'm shaking a little right now as I think about it. But it did not, at that moment I made the correct choices. I'm sure as hell not fearless and he could be Rambo for all I know. I was in fear of all of our lives, he has made death threats numerous times and has a "lot" of guns according to the ex-wife and daughter. I was at the very limit of correct response, had I actually drawn my weapon it would have been going to far, but I did not draw on him. While he was digging around in his car with me commanding him to stop I thought he was getting a gun, but I waited and he pulled out a black checkbook. Claimed he was just trying to give her a check for something. I did not let him and maneuvered him back to his car.
 
I am frustrated... Sometimes I feel like I should stop carrying. Why? I cannot legally pull a gun on 1 or 2 BIG (unarmed) guys who are coming after me. I KNOW they will pound me into the ground, and then my gun is vulnerable. Still, the threat of death is not present. Any help?
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ShooterMcGavin,
I have, with my own eyes, seen someone killed with just ONE punch from a medium sized guy. I have seen a big guy cripple another person for life (now a parapalegic) with just two blows from an empty fist. I have heard any number of other stories along a similar vein from a friend who works ER.

Here is my practical advice. If (God forbid!) someone assaults you then you do whatever you need to do to stop the assault.

If later (say in court) someone asks why you did whatever you did the only answer is "I was just trying to stop the attack".

Survive first, deal with the details later.
 
Thanks for the feedback, spencer and Ze.

The general thoughts that you gave me were just what I was seeking. Anything can happen in the real world. With the unknown condition and abilities of an attacker in question, I tend to think that allowing something to resort to H2H invites a very high level of risk.

When someone (a friend or someone with experience on the internet) suggests willingly accepting a wrestling match with an attacker, I start to question what I must be doing wrong. Allowing an aggrivated bully within arm's reach of my CCW is something I avoid like the plague, especially if he has seen you reach for it already. I know most people hate them, but I guess that situation is one in support of a magazine disconnect.
 
When someone (a friend or someone with experience on the internet) suggests willingly accepting a wrestling match with an attacker, I start to question what I must be doing wrong.
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When someone suggests that then -I- would seriously question their experience. I was an LEO for just a smidge under 4 years and I still have (from two different encounters)...

-A screwed up right knee and ankle.
-Torn abdominal muscles that have required 2 surgeries so far to repair.
-A knife scar on my right forearm.

This doesn't take into account the bite marks, scuffs, and scratches that healed and the absolute agony of two different rounds of waiting for hospital test results to come back to make sure I didn't get any blood/fluid-borne pathogens from the ba$t@#ds.

So don't let anyone ever convince you that hand-to-hand is a good idea unless you are absolutely out of any other options.

As my Grandfather said... "I'll fight you barehanded when you've stripped me butt naked and nailed my feet to the floor!"
 
Shooter McGavin,

In Washington State you do not have to wait until your life is threatened to draw on someone. It is something along the lines of fear of death or grave bodily harm. Two against one is certainly reasonable to fear grave bodily harm. One on one would be less clear cut, but if you had reason to bleieve that the other guy was much stronger than you, or that you were much less capable in H2H than the opponent it might still be justified.

In SpencerHut's situation where it was not just his life and body he was protecting, then his fear or concern might also extend to those he was protecting. A single enraged 200 lb man could reasonably be expected to inlfict grave bodily harm on a frail female if you are not able to restrain him (which would be pretty unlikely unless you have H2H training).

But for your personal situation, Washington State does not require that you only shoot in defense of life. An enraged ex of 250 lbs. would likely meet the criteria for reasonable fear of grave bodily harm. I would hope your defense lawyer could bring out the perspective that if a 250 lb. enraged man attacks you when he knows you are armed, then at least the attacker believed he had some advantage over you such as superior skills or a hidden weapon. If the attacker believed he could beat you, then it would seem reasonable for you to assume he poses a serious threat as well.

I vividly remember a Tacoma News Tribune article several years ago in which a man had three teenagers bust into his house with crow bars and bats. He shot one in the living room, and another in the back in the yard as he was riunning away (no longer had the bat). No charges, ruled justifiable self defense.
 
Spencerhut

Mom and daughter are at my house until we can change the locks at her house and get her a CCW and a gun.
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Deeper issues.

Mom has spent a long time intimidated by this guy.

She's gonna have to overcome that.

Having a CCW by itself isn't the cure.

I'm guessing the daughter is in that same boat.

You've assumed a role that's likely to burden you for a while.

You did the honorable thing. Now you have an enemy.

Watch your six.
 
Holy lack of paragraphs, batman!

(People will be much more likely to read your post and respond if it isn't difficult to read.

Anyway, as was mentioned, this guy spent 20 years manipulating her. Just because she has a gun, doesn't mean he won't be able to talk his way into the house, get her guard down, and then disarm her.

You've done a very honorable thing, and I'm glad to have you in our community, but I hope the addage 'No good deed goes unpunished' doesn't apply to you.

I am frustrated... Sometimes I feel like I should stop carrying. Why? I cannot legally pull a gun on 1 or 2 BIG (unarmed) guys who are coming after me. I KNOW they will pound me into the ground, and then my gun is vulnerable. Still, the threat of death is not present. Any help?
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Of course you can draw. Its called 'disparity of force'. I work in an ER and see the results of violent attacks all the time. If hit just the right way, it doesn't take much to have lasting neurological damage (brain, spinal cord, paralysis, etc). That consitutes great bodily harm, and is an acceptable reason to draw and shoot under most state's deadly force laws.
 
Good job. You did the absolute right thing. The only thing you could do really. True you're in a bad situation now but she could have been in a dead situation if you hadn't been there. Now get her to some training classes and get her a CCW. Oh and keep your head up.

Maybe some OC as a non-lethal deterrent?
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Good idea. When he got out of the car and approached the second time I would have hit him with the OC and drove away while he was crying on the ground. The fact that he was in violation of a restraining order and approaching her repeatedly in an enraged manner and acting threateningly towards her should definately give you the legal ability to do so. Easy to be an armchair commando ain't it?:D
 
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Another thought I had on the practical advice side is run through a few scenarios on what to do if he shows up (kinda like a fire drill). The last thing you want is to be standing there thinking "oh s***, he's here, what should I do now".
 
If your looking for a little more info about adrenaline and highly stressful situations, I HIGHLY recommend On Combat.

I am reading it now. Its jammed with great info, and is a highly fascinating read by itself.
 
Run&Shoot, thanks for the good information. You bring up some good points. However, I still have some bad impressions of what has happened in court rooms to reasonable people defending their lives. Maybe that was in different parts of the country, but this is hardly the conservative mecca of the country. I am signed up for a class to cover the legal aspects of CCW, but it is still a month out.
 
Nicely done sir. . . . .

Or as my old grandaddy used to say "You done good, boy." I would like to second the thought by hso re: getting an attorney involved and issuing your own restraining order - having all your ducks in a row legally is always a good idea and it will make the crazy man think twice before he starts something with you and yours. I call him the "crazy man" because you mentioned that he is a body builder and in my experience a lot of those folks are pumped full of illegal steroids. This stuff results in some truly bizarre behavioral quirks like bouts of paranoia and the amply documented " 'roid rage" which is a series of violent mood swings occasionally followed by violent behavior. I lived next door to one of these tragic cases for several years and it almost destroyed this poor guy. I was sympathetic but wary as hell and for good reason - he lived alone and with no one to talk him down he would fly into one of these rages and completely destroy the interior of his house. LEO's have told me it is nearly as bad as PCP or crack when one of these nuts goes off on you. Try to find out if the wife or daughter has any knowledge of drug abuse. Keep your wits about you and your guard up my friend. ( salutes spencerhut )
 
Spencerhut

You did well. I'm glad things worked out the way it did.

I hope you keep in mind that the greatest threat to your security and your wife's is battered mom and her daughter. They have a strange way of being overcome by guilt and try to 'mend fences' with their abuser against all good advice and their own experiences. In doing so they will drag you into the midst of it to be a 'referee'.

I suggest if mom and daughter try to 'make nice' with abusive dad you and your wife show them the door and give them directions to the nearest battered womens' shelter.

Pilgrim
 
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