My defensive handgun experience last night (5/20/09)

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I originally wasn't going to post this, as it was kind of a non-event, but the more I think about it, the more this could have rapidly degenerated into a violent scenario.

Background: I, as most of you know, work in a restaurant (waiter/bartender). We're only open nights, so I only work at night. Recently, the company hired a new guy to prep the kitchen during the day. I think his name may be Tim, but I'm not sure.

Tim's been there about two weeks or so. Not much older than me (I'm 25, he has to be younger than 30), and roughly my height (I'm 6'4"). He is skinnier than me, with a leaner (less fat and also less muscular) build. He is also a fairly clean-cut guy, but the two jailhouse tattoos of chain links around his wrists don't exactly put my mind at ease around him.

Anyway, so he gets off work yesterday about the tim I arrive, and sits at the bar and starts drinking. He drinks for probably around 4 until 6, and leaves.

He comes stumbling back into the restaurant at closing time later that night, wanting more to drink. Apparently, he'd been at the bar next door this whole time. The bartender gives him another beer (something I wouldn't have done, coworker or not) and then says he has to leave. Eventually, the kitchen manager, his boss, tells him to go home. I make sure the female bartender and other girls get to their cars safely, and then leave. I was on my way to meet some buddies from school and go catch the midnight opening of Terminator: Salvation.

As I approach the red light at the intersection where I leave our restaurant and get back on the highway, I see Tim, the drunk guy, standing on the edge of the road, tapping on people's windows (who are stuck at the red light) and asking them for a ride. Not cool.

He makes his way down the line of cars at the traffic light, and I realize that this might not go well, so I remove my SIG P226 .40S&W from my center console (can't wear it in work) and put it on my lap. He makes his way up to my car and taps on the window, muttering something about a ride in the direction I'm going. I didn't even bother to roll the window down. He taps again, harder. I smile and politely wave him off, saying (don't know if he heard me) "sorry buddy, can't do it."

At this time, I realize that he suddenly recognizes me, that he's seen me at work before. I could see the light bulb go off in his head. I couldn't drive away, as I was blocked in from roughly every side (I know, tactically unsound.) He then jiggles my door handle and TRIES TO OPEN MY PASSENGER DOOR!

Naturally I had it locked, so it didn't work. But some guy, drunk, who I don't know or trust, trying to get into my car without my express consent, is akin to carjacking in my book. I picked up my gun with my right hand only and pointed it directly at the third button on his shirt, directly at the "t" formed between shoulders and sternum. In my best command voice, I hollered "GET BACK NOW!!!"

He stumbled back a few steps with his arms in the air, and began to walk through, ironically, the cemetary that bordered the road.





Wait, it gets better.




I meet my buddies at a local pub down the road about 4 miles, to have a pint and shoot some pool because we had a bout two hours to kill before the movie started. We're hanging out for about a half hour, until guess who stumbled in. That's right. Timmy. Still drunk as a skunk.

I'm thinking "Ok. He's here for me. The S has hit the F. I'm not carrying a gun as I'm in a bar and that's illegal, but I have more than one tool in my toolbox."

Fortunatley, for both our sakes, he didn't even recognize me, even when he looked right at me. He went up to the bar, attempted to order a drink, but the bartender was pretty peeved at him, because apparently he had walked out on a tab earlier that day or week. To his credit, he paid what they said he owed, and sat down in the corner. At this time, we left for our movie and the excitement was over.

Not much of a story, I know, but it had the potential to be much worse. Would I have shot him if he kept jiggling my door handle? No. If he smashed my window? Maybe. I called the restaurant manager and told him that how close he came to losing a prep guy, and he contacted security to escort the guy off the premises evidently. I don't know if he even has a job at the restaurant any more.

I wouldn't know what to say if he does. Do I ignore him, and pretend like it never happened? I've never even spoken to the guy before, except when I had a pistol trained on his COM. Should I let him know (nicely, of course) just how stupid it was for him to be doing what he was doing?

ETA: I did not notify the police, as I did not think too much of the incident at the time; just a meandering stupid drunk. However, I was not about to bet my life on his harmlessness, which is why I drew. Maybe I should have, if only to get my side of the story on paper. It's not like I wanted to press charges for attempted carjacking, but if he spent a couple nights in county for public intoxication, it wouldn't hurt my feelings any.
 
Ignore and avoid. If he wants to talk to you, only he has the explaining to do.

That being said, don't let tattoos on a man's wrists define the contents of his heart.
I doubt I'd point a gun at a guy for banging on my car's window, but I don't see anything wrong with what you did.
 
I hope he doesn't remember anything that happened. In his drunken hazy memory he might remember you having a gun on him and if he lost his job he might blame you (it's not his fault! lol). Be careful and keep your SA up!
 
I'm not trying to second guess you, because I wasn't there and I'm not in your shoes, but I wouldn't have pulled the gun.

Reason being, you knew him and he knew you. The door was locked, so it wasn't like he was going to get in immediately, if at all. The second he started jiggling the handle, I would have advised him (in a strong, certain voice) that I wasn't giving him a ride and to back off. Most times, that'll do it. Now, if he had continued to try to get in, or began banging on the window or car door or produced a weapon, then yeah, he gets a pistol pointed at him.

Like I said, it's not my place to judge - but if it had been me, I'd have left the pistol pointing for a little later down the line (if at all).

In the end though, glad you (and Mr. Tipsy) made it home alive.
 
Handled well but you should have called 911. If he would have called first and reported a "nut" with a gun you would be the bad guy untill every thing was straightened out.
 
Yeah I know him, but I don't "know" him. As far as I was concerned, he's some drunk, violent drug addict trying to push his way into my car.

And as far as the tats... I know and appreciate nice, quality works of art. And I know what ink that people get in prison looks like. This is definitely the latter (not that it matters a whole lot anyway.)
 
If things did end up degenerating, you'd have been in a much bigger mess than the normal sef-defense scenario with a stranger. Anytime an acquaintance or co-worker is involved there will be added scrutiny by law enforcement.

Based on your story it seems like this was just a drunk co-worker who had too much to drink and was looking for a ride. More importantly, it seems like this is what you thought at the time too. If you had to explain yourself to an officer later on, could you honestly say, "I feared for my life officer." If your door had been open he probably would have simply opened it and plopped his drunk ass in the seat. He wasn't going to attack you or try to throw you out of your car and steal it. Other than his prison tats, you had no prior knowledge of any violent tendencies by this guy. My humble opinion is that you drew in order to bring an annoying, bothersome incident to a quick halt.

What if an anti-gun lady in the car behind you saw you pull the gun on the guy and called 911 on her cell phone and reported it? She'd tell the cops, "This harmless drunk guy was going from car to car asking if he could get a ride, and when he got to the car in front of me, the driver pulled out a gun and pointed it at the guy and yelled at him." Then, the police interview you later and you tell them you thought he was trying to car-jack you. But when they find out he wasn't a stranger, but was a co-worker and you had recognized him, they will start to ask more questions. Even if you were eventually cleared, it's not worth the hassle.
 
I'd have to agree with Kingpin here, I wouldn't have pulled a gun on the guy. To make matters worse I wouldn't have posted the incident here either. You never know, your post could show up at a later date during an unrelated court proceeding. Maybe I'm just too cautious.
 
You carry the gun for a reason. Second guessing your experience can really mess you up the next time. If you felt threatened enough to take it out, that's good enough for me. Good job (most people forget they even have the weapon with them with the s hits the f).

If he still has a job, and mentions this little episode, I'd say something to the effect of "dude, were you THAT drunk???!!!". Wait for him to say "what do you mean" and then say "I went right home that night, you must have been so drunk you mistook somebody else for me!". Make light of it and then change the subject after telling him you two should party sometime cause the ladies dig tatoos or some BS like that.

And my opinion on not carrying in certain places cause it's against the rules or laws isn't quite compatible with the standards of this forum so I'll keep it to myself.

Craig
 
Drawing on the guy is debatable. I was not there, will not second guess you. However, in my opinion if the threat is serious enough for me to draw, it is serious enough to call in. Maybe the regular number, not 911, but I would explain to someone at PD what happened.

As Phatty mentioned, YOU could get called in by a bystander.

Glad it all worked out, keep us posted on Tim's situation.

Steve
 
If he still has a job, and mentions this little episode, I'd say something to the effect of "dude, were you THAT drunk???!!!". Wait for him to say "what do you mean" and then say "I went right home that night, you must have been so drunk you mistook somebody else for me!".

....except for the fact that he just posted about the entire incident here in a publicly acessible forum and admitted to being part of it.
 
I can't speak for the laws in your state but if you brandish a gun like that on someone in Virginia you go to jail. The drunk guy never threatened you in any way. Having said that, in your shoes I might have done the same.
 
I'd have given the guy a ride home, which is pretty obviously where he needed to be. But, then again, I don't live in constant mortal fear of the rest of humanity. And I have a gun and know how to use it.
 
Lemme, I'm of your mind on this... I'da just given him a ride home.

But, I wasn't there and am in a very poor position to second guess the OP's actions. Seems he had a "feeling" and it's generally wise to trust your guts.

J
 
+1 Lemmy

I agree. I wasn't there, but you did ask for feedback. Instead of wearing your "tactical" hat for evaluating the situation, put on your "samaritan" hat: An acquaintance of yours was looking for a ride, and you said no. Not only did you say no, you pointed a gun at him so as to avoid the annoyance of dealing with him.

All ended well, but how would you feel if you came to work the next day and found out he was mugged because he was stranded without a ride home?

Again, I wasn't there so it is very difficult to accurately assess what you were seeing/sensing.

If it were me, I'd have given him a ride. Tattoos and all....
 
I'd have given the guy a ride home, which is pretty obviously where he needed to be. But, then again, I don't live in constant mortal fear of the rest of humanity. And I have a gun and know how to use it.

Ditto to that.
 
All ended well, but how would you feel if you came to work the next day and found out he was mugged because he was stranded without a ride home?

Not the least bit concerned. Turns out that he walked out of not only the bar tab I first mentioned, but another that day, and video surveillance shows he was drinking ON THE JOB when he was at our restaurant. (Wondered where that bottle of Patron XO went!) He also tried to get our female bartender to go home with him, because his wife was out of town and he got a sitter for their kids. Not criminal (well, actually, adultery still is in SC, but you know what I mean), but it is another pock mark on the guy's reputation.

My gut told me he was a piece of trash, and I don't let pieces of trash into my car. I really don't appreciate when pieces of trash jiggle my locked door handle.

Later evidence brought to light confirms my beliefs that the guy is a loser. I wish no ill will upon him, but I'm not going to go out of my way to place myself in an undesirable scenario (him in my car) for the sake of being a good Samaritan.
 
I obviously wasn't there, but I doubt that I would have pointed a gun at someone I knew. I don't know that I would have given him a ride in his condition, but your description doesn't make him sound all that threatening to me. I probably would have driven off and forgot about it. It does sound like he has a problem with alcohol, though.

It seems to me that there are more and more instances that I read about where folks are more than willing to draw a weapon in a circumstance that doesn't warrant the action. That kind of concerns me. I need to feel that my life is in danger before considering that action. If he had broken the window then the situation changes, or, if you didn't know him the situation changes.
 
Jiggling a locked car door on MY CAR? Same as trying forced entry into home in my book.

I would have also drawn on him before I think about losing that expensive side window. (Might lose the damn thing anyway if he continues the unwanted actions towards a crime of carjacking.)

His state of mind is irrevelant. Drunk or not, his actions count.

I would have forgot about the whole movie thing, told the Boss and went home. I doubt that the co worker will still have a job there.

I dont do Tattoos, but sometimes certain tats give me early warning and places me into a higher condition well in advance just in case.

No second guessing. I would have done the same actions with the exception of the movie showing and going to more bars. That would have been a recipe for trouble had the drunk recognized you.

Ive tied one on a time or two in my time and still could tell who was who... usually. You were lucky that he did not add 1+1 = coworker/Gun in car command.
 
hankdatank1362

First, I really appreciate that no one is second guessing you on this thread. All these comments are insightful and balanced. Not all threads are this good.

I have found that there are nuisances in a situation that put up a red flag in our mind and causes us to act differently in, what appears on the surface, similar situations. Call it intuition, but you have to trust that gut feeling.

I do think that PHATTY makes a really good point. Someone who saw your actions out of context with everything else that had happened that day might have gotten the wrong idea. And that would not have been fair to you. So caution is advised.
 
Well, I guess I'll be the first to say this is absolutely ridiculous.
You'd be toast in court if you'd shot him.

Jiggling passenger car door < threatening you verbally < banging on passenger window < jiggling driver door < breaking a window < threatening you with a weapon.


You seriously jumped the gun (pun intended)
 
My gut told me he was a piece of trash, and I don't let pieces of trash into my car. I really don't appreciate when pieces of trash jiggle my locked door handle.

Follow your gut, I say.

Yeah, it is indeed true; it might not go so well if you pumped a couple of .40 slugs into him. This is why, as Kelly McCann (aka "Jim Grover") says "lock your car doors."

Good tactics, problem solved.

Everyone went home (presumably) that night. Good job on that.
 
Other posters have mentioned that you "knew" him. I don't think that's the case. You didn't know him any more than you know some guy you drive past every day on the way to work.

Your red flags went up, and for good reason. He hit your subconscious, and later evidence bears that out.

Had it been me, I would have simply looked straight ahead and ignored him, again because with a person like that you never know what they might do if you display a handgun in the civil compensation arena. If I needed it to defend myself, it would still be there if he tried to break his way into my car. It wasn't an overtly hostile situation, as least the way you wrote it. It would depend upon the manner in which he was striking the car window.

But your assessment of his character was apparently right on. Don't second guess that. You are apparently good at reading people.
 
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