My Lessons Learned Today at the Range

[colorado_handgunner]

I learned two lessons out on the range today, which I will not soon forget. I had been shooting my .40 XD subcompact for about half an hour, and then switched over to my Ruger LCP. I picked up the Ruger a few months ago, intending it as a CC piece. I put about 25 rounds through the Ruger, and noticed that my arms and hands were starting to tire. I thought I would man up and finish out the box of ammo I was shooting, a decision that ended up being a mistake. :banghead: On the last round of a magazine in the LCP, the shot went into the target carrier! The frightening thing here is that the carrier was about 8 feet above the ground and I was shooting at a range of about 20 feet. I have never had a shot get away from me like that, ever! I then packed up and went home, badly shaken.

Now, on to what I learned.
1. Do not over exhaust yourself when shooting. We are always responsible for where every shot we take ends up. If you find that your arms are too fatigued to safely control exactly where the bullets go, take a break or go home, period. It is not an issue of machoness or training to become proficient under stress, it is a safety issue. Do not risk a stray round ending up somewhere it should not go.

2. What I also realized is that the little LCP is probably not a firearm I should be considering for CC. There are a few reasons why. First, I have always had an issue with it fitting my hand. I have to make a very conscious effort to grip it properly upon presentation, and then find that I must adjust my grip after one or two shots to keep it in firing position. This is a serious concern since I would likely not have time to adjust my grip if I had to quickly present in a threatened situation. Second, I have a lot of difficulty controlling the long, hard trigger of the gun. I know this could be overcome by practice, but the third reason addresses this. Third, I cannot find ammunition for this gun so that I can practice enough to become proficient with it. I have found .380 once in the 4 months since I bought the gun. Fourth, and most serious, the gun slips in my hand when firing, making targeting a concern. Finally, the main concern I realized today, I cannot be entirely certain of where each round will go from this gun because of the slipping and trigger issues. If I had to use it in a self defense situation, I do not feel that I could do so without some risk of stray rounds ending up in an undesired location.

What I have come to determine is that a small gun that can easily be carried is no good for CC if you cannot control the rounds. It can actually be even more dangerous than being unarmed, under certain circumstances. I am thinking that I will trade the LCP for something more to my liking that I can actually use, and have my XD-SC for cc. Any thoughts?

 

[TheWarhammer]

I agree with your assessment about weapon fit. Regardless of how good the gun is, or how popular it is, or how "perfect for carry" it is, if the gun does not fit you correctly, it is a poor choice. Everybody's hands are different. What fits me perfectly may be extremely uncomfortable or difficult to use for you. A carry gun should be easy for you to use and fit your hand naturally. You shouldn't have to consciously make adjustments to get the gun to point correctly.

It sounds like you should get rid of the LCP and try something else. I'm glad you realized this while at the range and not during a more critical event!

 

[HexHead]

a) the ammo issue will work itself out.
b) just plan on using the pistol at "knife distances."

 

[jimk0512]

I think that you can get used to the trigger by dry firing with snap caps.

The gun slipping may be fixed for you by adding a grip sleeve. Or you may find that a magazine extension helps, because you can get a better grip by getting another finger on the extension.

Maybe you should get rid of the LCP, but you might find more practice at home with snap caps and modifying the grip with the sleeve and/or magazine extension makes this pistol work for you.

 

[mongo4567]

I've had a Keltec P3AT for a long time. I could very easily pass our state CHL class with the weapon, probably better than 90%. That said, I have to work very hard at trigger control and grip. I've never shot an LCP, but the finish seems too smooth to me; like it would be hard to hold onto. The little guns all bite back a little: I've also shot a Keltec 32, Seecamp 32, and NAA 22mag. I would only carry one if I could consistently hit minute of man at 10 yards or more.

 

[tkopp]

I took a small Hogue grip and slipped it on, and it was too large! Ended up trimming the grip to size and wrapped the handle of my P3AT in medical tape before replacing the trimmed grip. Added just a little bit to the width of the pistol and it gave me a very much-needed nub that my third finger can grip, which keeps the weapon from climbing from my hand.

That said, try as I might I can't get an uninterrupted trigger pull to fire accurately. It would work at point-blank, but with the minimalist sights I'm incapable of always hitting a 6" target at 20ft without pausing my pull. That said, after having run about three hundred rounds through it, there's a very easy place to 'pause' your pull before the hammer lets go so you can get on target before you let fly. If I do that, I'm 8-10 ring at 20ft.

Would I want it in a defensive situation? Better than a pocket knife. Would I want my 1911 more? Of course! I can toss the P3AT in my pocket when I simply can't wear a holster, which due to work is often enough. I'm going to order a couple grip extenders since they're cheap and see what it does to the outline in my pocket, and think about getting the armalaser system for it. I'm not convinced it's better than the crimson trace setup, but I do like how it blocks out the pocket print. My Uncle Mike's pocket holster, even stuffed with cotton, works great until I'm crouched or seated and then fails to maintain a blocky wallet-like outline.

 

[David E]

I want to be able to hit a man-size target at 25 yds with ANY gun I carry for defense.

This includes any pocket autos carried for backup duty.

I find it a major disadvantage to only practice at "knife distances."

 

[cactusgeorge]

CCW carry

Look, forget all the "band aids" and jury rigged fixes for any handgun you may wish to carry, especially when you are talking about personal defense requirements. My suggestion is to find a single action semi auto, in the caliber you are comfortable with, probably in a "commander sized" barrel length and train with it, DRY, until you are confident with your GUNHANDLING and MARKSMANSHIP skills. Select a concealment style holster that fits the myriad of options for carry that you require. REMEMER, when it comes to CCW....EVERYTHING is a compromise. There is NO magic bullet to be found here..!! By training, I am referring to lots of DRY PRACTICE at the various distances you want to train at (forget the snap caps). They do nothing to improve your marksmanship or gunhandling skills. You can develop these necessary skills on your own without all these worthless aftermarket "crutches" marketed under the banner that you will "instantly" become the next "Deadeye Dick" on ther range. Good quality equipment and a strict DRY PRACTICE regimen will serve you well for the goals and objectives you are looking to achieve. GOOD LUCK..

 

[Big_John1961]

I agree with HexHead. I can't speak to the OP's situation regarding the LCP and how it fits him, but really, pistols like that and the Seecamp and other small CC pistols are designed for close quarter use. They are not target pistols. I carry a Seecamp, and I'm thinking its useful range is about 10 feet or less.

Any further out than that, and I'm using my feet to get out of trouble. You start shooting people beyond that range and claiming it's self defense, you're asking for a world of legal trouble. Just my opinion.

I also think the ammo situation will work itself out at some point.

 

[Big_John1961]

"I want to be able to hit a man-size target at 25 yds with ANY gun I carry for defense.

This includes any pocket autos carried for backup duty.

I find it a major disadvantage to only practice at "knife distances."

Yeah? You start popping people at 75', you'd better keep a good attorney on retainer. I'm just saying...

 

[jimk0512]

By training, I am referring to lots of DRY PRACTICE at the various distances you want to train at (forget the snap caps).

:banghead:

Do not forget the snap caps with most pocket pistols. For example, Kel-Tec says in the owner manual "Do not dry fire your P-32". The folks over on the Kel-Tec forum say you will break your Kel-Tec P-32 or P3-AT if you dry fire without snap caps. The folks over on the Ruger forum say the same thing about the LCP.

Oh, and about that suggestion to

find a single action semi auto, in the caliber you are comfortable with, probably in a "commander sized" barrel length

- it all depends upon what you are wearing. I've tried that with a Kahr CW9 (single stack 9mm, but not single action) while wearing the clothes I wear to work, and my family tells me they can see the pistol in the IWB holster through my shirt before I even ask them. And no, I can't wear a cover vest or coat over the IWB pistol. Tucked in button down shirt over slacks is the uniform of the day. The pocket pistol in a holster stays concealed, and allows me to carry.

 

[colorado_handgunner]

Does anyone know of aftermarket rubber grips like hogue's that will fit the LCP?

 

[wally]

First rule of a gun fight -- Have a gun!

No matter how bad the fit or uncomfortable it is to shoot, its way better to have it and not need it than other way around!

I'll carry the biggest I can conceal, but around here that is sometimes my P3AT.

The rubber grips and mag extensions etc. do help at the range but if they interfere with your concealment they are counter productive.

--wally.

 

[cchris]

Don't know much about the LCP or where to find grips, but if you consistently have rounds "get away" from you, that might be an issue. Unless you're sure that it was the fault of the gun, I wouldn't get rid of it so quick. Just make sure you know how to shoot it.

(I follow the same rules for vehicles - just learn how to control it, predict everything about it, and you'll be okay. Someone else might try to use it and end up with much worse results.)

 

[David E]

David E:

"I want to be able to hit a man-size target at 25 yds with ANY gun I carry for defense.

This includes any pocket autos carried for backup duty.

I find it a major disadvantage to only practice at "knife distances."

Big John:

Yeah? You start popping people at 75', you'd better keep a good attorney on retainer. I'm just saying...

Here's how most gunfights work: THEY get to choose the time, place and distance.

There are many documented cases of shots being fired in self defense at 25 yds or further.

The reason I'd be shooting at a badguy in the first place, regardless of distance, is because a deadly threat exists, either to me or a loved one.

Why would you want to hold your fire when they're 25 yds away, yet actively trying to kill you or your family?

 

[PAPACHUCK]

Solution. Sell the LCP and buy pants with larger pockets and fill a front pocket with a Kel-Tec P11 or PF-9.

 

[earlthegoat2]

Unfortunately almost everyone who has a P3AT or an LCP has the same problems you have yet they just say heck with it because it is so convenient to carry.

 

[Fumbler]

I own a P3AT and my friend has an LCP.
I've shot them side by side and the P3AT is MUCH easier to keep a hold of.

The Ruger is pretty, but the P3AT has the ugly checkering that gives you a really solid grip. So solid that it will start to hurt if you shoot a full box or more.

One option you have is to sell the LCP (which should be very easy to do. I'll take it off your hands) and buy a P3AT.

The other option is to take the other people's advice. Only use that gun up close.
I can't imagine having to shoot at someone at 25 yards unless they've got a personal grudge against you.
The only time I think I'd have to shoot that far is if there were riots or gangs going around shooting at people (like during Katrina) and in that case I'd have a rifle or shotgun.

 

[J Lambs]

I had issues with the LCP trigger as well. I was not very accurate at all. I have sold it and bought a Kahr PM9. It is just as easy to carry with a pocket holster in shorts. More expensive, but it is also 9mm, which is much easier and cheaper to buy.

 

[Fumbler]

I forgot to mention, the P3AT trigger was slightly better than the LCP.
The P3AT trigger seems a little more predictable and when it breaks it doesn't jerk the gun around as much as the LCP.
I shoot the P3AT a little better than the LCP for that reason.

A PM9 is a very nice gun, but nothing beats a P3AT or LCP for concealment with a decent caliber.
I've tried pocketing a PM9 and it's a little more difficult for me to draw than my J frame or P3AT.

 

[BCRider]

Please take this post with a grain of salt since I can't and don't carry up here.

But isn't the first order of business to put the bullets where you want them to go? To do that the gun must fit your hand and must be shaped so that in a situation it falls naturally into your grip in a consistent manner so that you are ready to aim or just point, depending on the distance. If the fit is iffy to the point that it won't fit into your hand in a consistent manner or jumps out of place in your grip once there then how will you control your shot placement in a serious adrenaline situation? It really doesn't matter if it can be hidden with no printing even under a G string, if it won't put your bullets reliably on target then it isn't fullfilling its primary purpose. At least that's how I would see it. Am I missing something?

The more compact guns often don't fit like the larger ones. But for the fingers they do fit the grip should be positive and natural. If that means aftermarket grips or even looking at getting custom grips then I would think this would be a key element in choosing a carry gun. And checkering or whatever is not a substitute for a positive and consistent grip. Aggresive checkering may well lock that puppy into your grip like it's set in concrete but if it locks it in an inconsistent manner so you never know where it's pointed from picking it out one time to the next then the checkering is just getting into the way.

The need to hide the gun is obviously important to avoid attention but if the gun cannot be made to settle consistently and positively into the grip without a lot of fussing then I would suggest that the gun is not the right one until modifications are done to make it fit that way.

One option that could work for ANY gun is to make your own grips. This can be done by making up thin side plates to protect the magazine well and then coat the frame with mold release or a thin tape layer. Then using an epoxy putty you can coat the frame and press your hand into it in a manner that it forms to your grip. By all means wear some tight stretchy latex or nitrile gloves for this phase. Depending on the working time of the putty you have time to re-mold and play with the grip until it fits you like the proverbial glove. As it starts to stiffen in the first stages of the curing you can shave off the extra and carefully slice a seam to allow removal based on how your pistol is shaped. After it cures you can checker or stiple some of the area for a more positive grip.

It may only be large enough to get a grip with two fingers if the gun is small enough. But those two fingers should grip in a natural manner as best they can. Doing the epoxy putty trick may not look pretty but when the scabby looking grips are locked in your fist will anyone but you really care?

Sorry for piping in on a topic that I'll never have the opportunity to share in but I saw a few replies that suggest you need to compromise. It just didn't make any sense to me to compromise on something this important. Instead I like to think that a "better mousetrap" is the better way even if it means going custom to achieve it.

Come to think of it I've got a cheapie Chinese copy of a Tokarev. The grips on it suck and I was thinking of doing something with wood. But the epoxy putty idea is far more in keeping with the inexpensive nature of this project gun..... You've all inspired me!

Anyhow, again I apoligise if I stepped on any toes as I know personal carry is a highly individual topic where everyone tends to be protective about their own personal choice. There may be conflicting needs for compactness and grip stability but with care I don't think they need to be conflicting. It's just a question of how far you're willing to go to cure the cheezy grip issue.

 

[Fumbler]

But isn't the first order of business to put the bullets where you want them to go?

BCRider, yes, the most important thing is to put the bullets on target.
However, I don't think it's reasonable to ask a little pocket auto to put the bullets on target at 20+ yards.

Carrying a gun is a game of compromise.
I carry a compact pistol because I can't carry a rifle.
I carry a J frame when I can't easily carry a compact auto.
I carry a P3AT when I can't easily carry a J frame.

As you go to smaller and smaller guns your expectation of effective range, power, and capacity has to be smaller and smaller.
That is the nature of carrying concealed and anyone who carries has to accept that.

It's a good idea to make modifications that help you shoot better, but those mods can only go so far.

 

[ezypikns]

I had the very same problem with my Kahr PM9.

Buy yourself an A-Grip wrap for your LCP from:

http://brookstactical.com

It's an adhesive backed wrap with is incredibly easy to apply. Once it's on, it WON'T MOVE. Aids tremendously in helping you to control small semi auto pistols, even if your hands are sweaty. I think you can buy one for about 20.00 to 25.00.

When I first saw it I wondered why I'd pay that much for a little flat piece of fabric with adhesive backing, but the doggone things WORK!

Each one is custom cut for a particular pistol, and they DO make one for the LCP.

Another suggestion is to buy Pearce Grip Extensions to replace the floorplates in your LCP magazines. That will also boost controllability.

 

[Big_John1961]

Here's how most gunfights work: THEY get to choose the time, place and distance.

There are many documented cases of shots being fired in self defense at 25 yds or further.

The reason I'd be shooting at a badguy in the first place, regardless of distance, is because a deadly threat exists, either to me or a loved one.

Why would you want to hold your fire when they're 25 yds away, yet actively trying to kill you or your family?

You may want to read some of this link for a different take on how most confrontations of the type you describe take place. It's from the Seecamp website:

http://seecamp.com/faq.htm#No Sights

I think the vast majority of defensive confrontations take place at close range. I just can't envision too many scenarios whereby someone would be taking potshots at me from some 75'. I'm sure it happens, just not very often. If someone is brandishing a knife from a distance like 75' and you shoot him, you are going to jail. An "assailant" in that scenario does not represent an immediate threat, and that's pretty much the criteria you have to meet in most states to lawfully defend yourself with deadly force.

As far as protecting myself and my family, you bet I'm serious about it. It's why I carry. But you have to know the rules.

 

[Fumbler]

Buy yourself an A-Grip wrap for your LCP from:

http://brookstactical.com

It's an adhesive backed wrap with is incredibly easy to apply. Once it's on, it WON'T MOVE. Aids tremendously in helping you to control small semi auto pistols, even if your hands are sweaty. I think you can buy one for about 20.00 to 25.00.

I don't know how well it'd work on an LCP, but I use skateboard grip tape on the frontstrap of my Sig 228. I use that gun for IDPA style shooting and it keeps my hand completely in the same position.

It's worth a try, the stuff is dirty cheap. Just cut to fit with a utility knife.