need ADVICE from AK 47 OWNERS

[xbox360]

thx!

 

[Kymasabe]

The Duke is wrong.

I'd say get a Saiga. I've had a few of them. They're brand new instead of cobbled together from part kits by the monkeys at Century Arms.
If you want the cleaning rod and bayo mount, then the Saiga is not for you. But if you want a brand new rifle, and with a little modification, can turn it into very much an AK platform, then it's right up your alley.
2 or 3 hours with some basic hand tools will turn your Saiga into a great gun.
The biggest challenge for the Saiga has been handguards but Tapco and SGM Tactical have some options. Or, if you're really ambitious, you could pull the gas block, install a standard AK handguard retainer and use whatever handguard you want.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

shoots 5.56, which is far easier to find nowadays than 7.62x39.

If prices go back to normal, 7.62x39 will probaly be cheaper.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

kymosabe: "2 or 3 hours with some basic hand tools will turn your Saiga into a great gun. The biggest challenge for the Saiga has been handguards but Tapco and SGM Tactical have some options. Or, if you're really ambitious, you could pull the gas block, install a standard AK handguard retainer and use whatever handguard you want."

Or you could just buy a real AK-pattern which takes AK magazines and accessories. Scopes, folding stocks, etc.

With enough tools, time and money you can turn a Volkswagen Beetle into a sort-of-Porsche 911. But why?

 

[PvtPyle]

Or you could just buy a real AK-pattern which takes AK magazines and accessories. Scopes, folding stocks, etc.

With enough tools, time and money you can turn a Volkswagen Beetle into a sort-of-Porsche 911. But why?

The Saiga is a real pattern AK. It does not get more real than ones made in the original factory. They are bastardized for import as sporting rifles but they are by far a better gun than ANY Romanian or Chinese gun on the market. They will take any stock, underfolders and AK-74 stocks take minor modifications just like any other AK. Compairing the Rommy as a 911 to a Saiga as a VW just illustrates how little you know about AK's in general. I can assure you, you are 180 degrees out.

Get a Saiga and when you get the money to do what you want to customize it, do it. You wont regret it. Buying a Rommy is a 60/40 chance of getting a bad/good gun.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

PvtPyle: "The Saiga is a real pattern AK ... They will take any stock, underfolders and AK-74 stocks take minor modifications just like any other AK."

When you have to re-machine the receiver to get an AK mag to even fit, let alone work, when you have to drill and weld an AK scope mount to the receiver in order to mount an AK scope, and when the gas tube and furniture is completely different -- it ain't an AK. Sorry, there's no such thing as a free lunch. They were $169 last year for a reason.

 

[nebulabass]

Century WASR 10

I got a century romanian WASR 10 a month ago. It is new, and the dealer installed a tapco collapsible stock, a tapco galil handguard, and a receiver cover with rail. I paid $700 for it at an atlanta area gun show (March 09). I got 2 mags that won't fit right and 2 mags that work great. The handguard and receiver cover don't fit perfectly, but the gun shoots awesome. I've shot 3 different brands of cheap ammo flawlessly. This gun is really fun to shoot and is worth the minor problems you might have.

 

[Shear_stress]

When you have to re-machine the receiver to get an AK mag to even fit, let alone work, when you have to drill and weld an AK scope mount to the receiver in order to mount an AK scope, and when the gas tube and furniture is completely different -- it ain't an AK. Sorry, there's no such thing as a free lunch. They were $169 last year for a reason.

Uh, you mean like how Century Arms remachines single-stack WASR receivers to get regular AK mags to fit? By the way, no modifications of the Saiga receiver are required to accomodate AK mags-only some light filing on the mag latch. Also, the Saiga comes from the factory with an AK scope mount, unlike most of vaunted Chinese, Hungarian or Bulgarian models.

What exactly is this straw-man AK-pattern rifle anyway? Chinese furniture won't fit a Romie, Romie furniture won't fit on my milled Bulgarian SLR-95, .223 Norinco mags won't fit a .223 Polytech (and they come from the same damn country!), Yugo trunnions and gas tubes won't fit anything, no other AK butt stock will fit on an AMD-65, and I can't put a bayonet on my damn MAK-90! Why pick on Saigas?

 

[dscottw88]

when you have to drill and weld an AK scope mount to the receiver in order to mount an AK scope

Saiga's all come with a scope mount already attached to the receiver, and mine takes circle 10 Bulgarian mags in 5.56. Saiga is a AK rifle, no doubt about it.

 

[Kino74]

If you're adventurous, go the custom route. For the less adventurous or to add a Russian to the safe, get a Saiga and get it converted to AK100 pattern.

If you going to get a Saiga, look at the AK100s. Gorgeous rifles.

 

[RP88]

another thing to remember is that you DO NOT have to swap out the gas tube and handguard(s) unless you want to get the authentic look.

 

[444marlin]

+1 on arsenal inc SA-M7 I really like mine and have had no problems whatsoever.

 

[PvtPyle]

Duke, you really dont know what you are talking about. You dont have to machine a Saiga receiver to get it to take an AK mag. You have to install a feed ramp to gt it to take a mag that is not a Saiga mag, and yes they do make hi-cap mags. But then again you have to machine out the mag well and install a feed ramp for the Rommy AK's that Century puts out. They just do it for you at Century.

Secondly, the gas tube is the same. It does not have the retainers for the upper handguard, but neither do the ones with rails. The gas system is identical.

Next, to get it to take a normal stock you dont have to do anything but intall it with two screws. Most have a hole in the base for the pistol grip hidden under the plate and you can drop in the standard trigger.

The fact that you dont understand that the AK action and receiver is the same for all of these weapons mentioned, and that the Saiga is built in the original factory indicates what your level of experience with them is. As for my level of experience, I own 46 of them and we are building the other 14 to finish the collection. My company builds AK's for customers and we preform both classic and custom conversions on the Saigas (and I have a copy of the original mechanical drawings from the factory and low and behold they are the same as the current AK-100 series). And I personally have re-built over 1000 of them for the Afghan security forces while deployed. You could say I have a bit of experience with them.

I am glad you like your Rommy, but the fact remains that it is the entry level of the current crop of AK's available to the US consumer, and like it or not the Saiga really is an AK under the sporterized dressings.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

PvtPyle: "The fact that you dont understand that the AK action and receiver is the same for all of these weapons mentioned, and that the Saiga is built in the original factory indicates what your level of experience with them is. As for my level of experience, I own 46 of them and we are building the other 14 to finish the collection. My company builds AK's for customers and we preform both classic and custom conversions on the Saigas (and I have a copy of the original mechanical drawings from the factory and low and behold they are the same as the current AK-100 series). And I personally have re-built over 1000 of them for the Afghan security forces while deployed. You could say I have a bit of experience with them."

Whatever, tiger. The ad hominems aren't necessary.

I should have known you were in the business of selling Saigas -- explains exactly why you feel threatened by their criticism and feel compelled to discredit the critics.

Having to drill, weld, file, etc. -- that's machining.

I'll tell you what -- why don't you tell my why they cost only $169 last year, if they were better than the others? You can't, because you know they are butchered crap.

 

[Shear_stress]

Having to drill, weld, file, etc. -- that's machining.

Wouldn't you know, I'm now a machinist! Actual machinists I know may beg to differ with your statement. Besides, you originally said that "you have to re-machine the receiver to get an AK mag to even fit, let alone work", which still ain't true. Again, just light filing on the mag latch, or far less than what Century has to do to get WASRs to take AK mags. That, combined with the fact that you are unaware that Saigas have scope mounts already makes me question if you are really experienced enough with these rifles to be making the bold statements you are.

I'll tell you what -- why don't you tell my why they cost only $169 last year, if they were better than the others? You can't, because you know they are butchered crap.

Hell, Dunham's was selling single-stack WASRs for $179 last year as well, and, unlike Saigas, these require actual receiver modifications to take AK mags. I guess that means all Romie AKs are butchered crap too.

Yeah, I even got a smoking deal on a 1968-vintage Colt SP1 last year (1/3 the going rate--true story), so obviously those are crap as well. The price you quote is what one vendor, CDNN, was blowing Saigas out for. In reality, maybe that price had more to do with the fact that stamped AKs aren't exactly expensive to build, Russian labor is cheap and CDNN bought EAA's entire Saiga inventory for next to nothing when EAA stopped importing these guns. In other words, just like what CDNN does with all their guns.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Shear Stress: "That, combined with the fact that you are unaware that Saigas have scope mounts already makes me question if you are really experienced enough with these rifles to be making the bold statements you are."

Again with the ad hominems. Totally unnecesary. It would be sufficent to allege, "Saigas have scope mounts."

Maybe they do, now. I saw my first Saiga Mizhmazh years ago, I believe in 2001. They certainly didn't have scope mounts then. Maybe they do, now. I haven't paid them close attention. If so, fine. It has a scope mount. Still doesn't make them an AK. Sure, they can be worked on for hours and replacement parts eventually fitted until they look and function somewhat more like an AK. I don't deny that. I don't even hate them. But I do hate the attitude of equivalency driven by commercial incentive -- Saiga dealers telling inexperienced buyers, "SURE it's an AK ... in fact it's the best AK, made in the original factory, as a matter of fact ..." Totally misleading. A half step above Mitchell's Mausers, as a matter of fact, selling Yugoslav M48A rifles as "German Mausers made on German tooling set up in occupied wartime Serbia, the crest on the receiver says, '1943'".

 

[Shear_stress]

Again with the ad hominems. Totally unnecesary. It would be sufficent to allege, "Saigas have scope mounts."

I actually did say that way up in post #33, but you must have missed it the first time. By the way, not two weeks ago I held and fired a Saiga imported by B-west in 1994, one of the first imported. It had a scope mount.

As for ad hominem attacks, I am not sure what you're talking about. You made several statements that were clearly wrong about Saigas, so I am clearly not attacking you personally by saying that you might not be in an informed enough position to have a strong opinion about these guns.

Still doesn't make them an AK. Sure, they can be worked on for hours and replacement parts eventually fitted until they look and function somewhat more like an AK. I don't deny that. I don't even hate them. But I do hate the attitude of equivalency driven by commercial incentive

Oh, wait, now you don't hate these guns. Before you were saying:

I'll tell you what -- why don't you tell my why they cost only $169 last year, if they were better than the others? You can't, because you know they are butchered crap.

So, your line of reasoning has changed from "Saigas are butchered crap" to "Saiga dealers are dishonest". In other words, your reasoning for trashing Saigas is based on an ad hominem attack on a bunch of deceptive straw men. You've managed to combine two logical fallacies with that one. Interesting.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Shear stress: "Oh, wait, now you don't hate these guns. So, your line of reasoning has changed from "Saigas are butchered crap" to "Saiga dealers are dishonest". In other words, your entire reason for trashing Saiga is based on ad hominem attack on the people who recommend and sell these guns. Interesting."

Nope. I know they are butchered crap; I just don't hate them. Perfectly consistent. And I do believe that some of the apparent sales talk I've read about Saigas is misleading at best. That's what I dislike most.

 

[Shear_stress]

I know they are butchered crap;

So you are unaware of the features Saigas have as well as what it takes to convert them, but you are certain that they are crap. I would love it if you could provide some evidence for Saiga "crappiness". You haven't shown any yet.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Shear stress: "I would love it if you could provide some evidence for that Saiga "crappiness"."

For starters, the fact that out of the box they will not accept an AK magazine, yet are billed as AK-pattern. For another, the fact that they do not have an AK trigger group. For yet another, their ridiculous out of the box cheap plastic furniture. Finally, the fact that they cannot accept the AK bayonet or cleaning kit without major modifications and replacement parts being ordered.

 

[Kymasabe]

Duke is wrong again.

I have a '99 dated Saiga that has a factory mounted scope rail.
Bayonet? Who really needs a bayonet on their AK. And the cleaning kit? Come on, who really uses it. I don't know about you, but I'm certainly not going to ram a steel cleaning rod down my barrel or use that crappy jag that comes in the kit.
Everyone knows they're imported with the crap furniture and cheesy trigger. That all gets replaced when you do the conversion.
You talk like you're some kind of authority on the subject when clearly, you don't have any idea what you're talking about.

You should really stop before you embarass yourself anymore.

I was just looking at your "join date" under your name. Over 2800 posts in just under 4 months. You just sit there in front of your computer and spew nonsense and disinformation all day long don't you? I pity you, nothing worthwhile in your life to do but to sit there and be angry online. Maybe you should spend some time at the range enjoying some of the rifles you put so much effort into bashing. You might be surprised how much you could learn hanging around actual shooters with real rifles.

 

[Shear_stress]

For starters, the fact that out of the box they will not accept an AK magazine, yet are billed as AK-pattern. For another, the fact that they do not have an AK trigger group. For yet another, their ridiculous out of the box cheap plastic furniture. Finally, the fact that they cannot accept the AK bayonet or cleaning kit without major modifications and replacement parts being ordered.

Really, this your standard of "crappiness"? My friend, I'm not entirely sure what "AK-pattern" means (again see post #33--lots of variation in AK-style rifles), but the comments you make could easily apply to most AK-style rifles imported since 1989. No civilian-market gun has an "AK-trigger group", many came with crappy furniture, and none, repeat, none came with bayonet lugs. Any post-89 AK that legally has a bayonet lug either had one added after importation (read: major modifications) or was rebuilt from a parts kit (read: major modifications). Let me say in the most tactful terms possible that I do not believe your opinion about Saigas rests on firm underpinnings.

 

[quatin]

For starters, the fact that out of the box they will not accept an AK magazine, yet are billed as AK-pattern. For another, the fact that they do not have an AK trigger group. For yet another, their ridiculous out of the box cheap plastic furniture. Finally, the fact that they cannot accept the AK bayonet or cleaning kit without major modifications and replacement parts being ordered.

Are you just concerned with out of the box condition? Original WASR-10s don't take AK mags either, but Century machines it so they can. Would you consider TROMIX Saigas AKs? Right out of the box, TROMIX Saigas take AK mags, have "traditional" AK furniture and all that stuff you mentioned.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Kymasabe: "Bayonet? Who really needs a bayonet on their AK. And the cleaning kit? Come on, who really uses it. I don't know about you, but I'm certainly not going to ram a steel cleaning rod down my barrel or use that crappy jag that comes in the kit."

Pistol grip? Heck, Saiga doesn't have one; why should others? Detachable magazine? Stripper clips work better and are lighter. SKS is the new AK!

 

[Acera]