New Member: Greeting and Home Defense Rifle Question

[Greenmachin3]

Hello to everyone taking the high road. This is my first thread and post.

The reason being is that I've lurked on your boards for about a week and have found some great threads with very insightful opinions and great facts and resources. I've lived in Dallas Texas for the past 16 years. I was Born in Chicago to two British Immigrants, so if you ever meet me, don't be surprised by my accent. Americans think I sound British, Brits think I sound American. I consider Dallas and Texas in general my home. I've just graduated from Penn State and by sheer luck am back in Dallas (better job market than most of the country it seems). I've been a gun enthusiast, like my parents, for quite some time, but haven't been in the true land of the free (Texas) while at the same time being old enough to purchase the firearms I'm interested in.

I'm looking to spend up to $1000 on a rifle and ammo that is good for home defense and fun for target shooting, and perhaps a little eccentric. The Mini 14, M1 Carbine, Kel-Tec SU-16 and a few others seem to be mentioned on this and other message boards regularly.

What do y'all think, what are your opinions?

Thanks for the Advice!

 

[dat2]

home defence I'ld go with a rem 870 shotgun, then spend the other $700.00 on a rifle for fun and target shooting, just my opinion though.

 

[jpwilly]

The AR-15 is probably the most versatile rifle available for HD, plinking, and varmint hunting. The caliber can be changed if you get tired of 223 by swapping uppers to say 6.8spc. I know of very few other weapons that can do that.

 

[Greenmachin3]

Thank you jpwilly. I've noticed on some boards that people tend to get their rifles and guns at a much cheaper price than what is typically advertised. Is it possible to get a new AR-15 for under $1000 with money leftover for ammunition? I mostly see them advertised for $1000 and up.

 

[9mmepiphany]

i think most ARs might be over what you are looking to spend.

might i suggest an AK and a less expensive alternative...i'd look at the 5.45x39mm chambering for HD.

less expensive still would be a nice SKS...i'd choose it over a mini-14 or kel tec

 

[jpwilly]

I belive if you wait just a bit longer the supply of barley used and new AR-15 will come back. But right now they are scarce as hens teeth and overpriced. Still for your application the AR-15 is IMO a "perfect fit" why compromise? Otherwise the Mini 14, SKS, Kel-Tec, and M1 Carbine are good rifles but they do not offer the advantages (or disadvantages depending on who you ask) of the AR platform.

 

[eye5600]

What do y'all think, what are your opinions?

Here are a few and worth every cent you are paying for them.

"Eccentric" and "home defense" don't really go together. The latter requires a level of reliability not promised by the former.

I'm not a believer in rifles for home defense. That's partly because I live in a densely populated area, but also because rifles are typically best suited for longer range work, say more than 50 yards. Like dat2, I would go with a cheap shotgun for HD.

There is plenty of eccentricity to be found in pre-1950 bolt action milsurp rifles, e.g. Mausers built for Egypt or Persia. An SKS is more eccentric than an AK-47 variant.

From what I've seen in advertising, there are plenty of Mini-14s to be had if you are willing to pay $100 or so more than seems right, but Kel-Tecs are scarce on the ground at any price.

There are those who say, if you are willing to practice a bit, a lever action rifle can put out almost as much lead as a semi-automatic, and it will help disguise you as a Texan.

 

[HoosierQ]

Green Machine

Welcome. Me...given your list...I'd go with either the M1 Carbine or the Mini-14. Both are based on the Garand platform and you cannot go wrong there.

With the Mini-14 you can get a new rifle that shoots one of three pretty darned powerful rounds. They are kind of high for what you get but they have a large base of support...a very good little rifle.

M1 Carbines are very expensive unless you join the CMP which isn't hard. In that case you can get a used, Military Surplus M1 Carbine for about $500 or so. That is a lot of gun for good money. 15-round surplus mags abound.

I had a Mini-14 which I sold when broke...regret it. I'd buy another one in a minute. I am also thinking of going the CMP route.

 

[woof]

I think you really need to think hard and long about firing a centerfire rifle in the house because of over-penetration. It may depend on where you live and other circumstances. I like something in a pistol caliber for that purpose, mine is a Marlin .357.

 

[Greenmachin3]

RE: 9mmepiphany
I never considered an AK. Looking at a few, they seem well within my price range. Is the 5.45mm really better than the 7.62? It seems as if there are two sides to this. 5.45 is more developed/accurate, 7.62 has better hitting power.

RE: eye5600
I'm not looking for eccentricity exclusively, just if there happens to be a weapon that offers a solution AND tends to be the road less traveled, then that would be fine too. Thank you for your recommendations. It seems as though the Mini14 is a little ahead of the other options.

RE: Woof
That's exactly why I was considering the M1 carbine. Modern .30 carbine expanding bullets seem to have great performance on paper. Looks better than .357mag on many instances, too. Good stopping power, but little over penetration. However the .30 carbine ball seems to overpenetrate very easily from what I've read about the round. What do you think?



I should clarify that I'm not particularly interested in a shotgun at the moment. I would very much like one for HD, and the 870 looks to be the gold standard. But I'm not sure I could afford a dual purpose HD/target rifle and a shotgun right now. At the moment I would like a rifle to go target shooting with some friends while having it as a trusty standby at home.

 

[mgkdrgn]

home defence I'ld go with a rem 870 shotgun, then spend the other $700.00 on a rifle for fun and target shooting, just my opinion though.

+1 to this ... took the words right outta my mouth.

Target shooting ... you can have a blast with a good 22 rifle and leave a lot of $ in your pocket.

PS ... HAIL to the Lion!
PSU B.Log '78

 

[9mmepiphany]

the 5.45x39mm is comparable to the 5.56x45mm that the AR-15 shoots. the 7.63x39mm has better penatration...a friend who just got back from trainging in Iraq said they keep one loaded up for use against vehicles.

i used to be a big believer in the shotgun for HD and keep a handgun next to the bed because it's just handier, but...

i saw a test awhile back that gave me pause. we were shooting into stacked plastic milk bottles filled with water to compare penetration. not only did the 5.56x45mm penetrate fewer bottles than the 12ga shotgun, it also penetrated fewer than the .357mag, .40, 9mm and the .45.

the mention of a pistol calibre lever action rifle is well worth looking at too. my choice is the Marlin 1894 in .357mag...you can shoot .38spl out of it...and then you can get a matching calibre pistol

 

[C-grunt]

With 1000 dollars you could still get a shotgun and rifle. A decent shotgun will run you about 300 bucks which leaves you with 700 left.

AKs can still be had for around 500 which leaves you 200 left for ammo and accessories.

I would personally get a SKS for 3-400 and a .22 rifle for 150. Then you would still have a good amount left over for ammo and three long guns that will cover all your bases.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

I also agree with dat2-get the $200 870 for home defense[hard to beat with any budget for that purpose-I own 30+ guns but if you kick in my door at 3am I will greet you with a Ithaca 37 12 pump] Take the rest of the $ and buy a nice 22 rimfire-that will get you shooting and most importunely give you a excuse to JOIN YOUR LOCAL GUN CLUB. Take the .22 to the range,punch a few holes and wander around and ask others"say how do you like that gun I see you shooting" Its a great way to see guns you may have been thinking about and talk to actual owners.

 

[amprecon]

Dude, your a displaced brit.......living in Texas, just tear yourself off a big ol' hunk of true Americana and git yourself a lever action .30-30.

Seriously though, all and all they are mostly bullet-proof rifles, no pun intended. The ol' thuddy-thuddy has alot going for it, they are inexpensive, they don't have the "evil-gun" stigma attached to it, they are reliable, accurate, very handy, streamlined, pack as good a punch or better than AK ammo, ammunition for them isn't in as high demand as the semi-auto rounds and they are just plain classy. I do miss the one I had.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

That's exactly why I was considering the M1 carbine. Modern .30 carbine expanding bullets seem to have great performance on paper. Looks better than .357mag on many instances, too. Good stopping power, but little over penetration. However the .30 carbine ball seems to overpenetrate very easily from what I've read about the round. What do you think?

Don't use it, use expanding ammunition instead.

I should clarify that I'm not particularly interested in a shotgun at the moment. I would very much like one for HD, and the 870 looks to be the gold standard. But I'm not sure I could afford a dual purpose HD/target rifle and a shotgun right now. At the moment I would like a rifle to go target shooting with some friends while having it as a trusty standby at home.

You can probably get a 870 for self defense and a .22 rifle for target shooting for under $550.

I'd also think before buying an AK or AR for self defense. Unfortunantly, people do occasionally get charged with a crime in cases of legal self-defense, and I've heard the argument that a jury might see that and convict you, when they wouldn't otherwise. It makes sense to me, so I'd use the mini or the carbine.

 

[Rexster]

The Mini-14 would be a fine home defense rifle, and would be my personal choice.

I own two Minis, one with an 18" barrel, and one with a 16", and both have factory flash hiders.

I also own an AR15. The AR would be my choice for fighting in a true battlefield environment, where faster magazine changes would more likely be a factor to consider, and the greater ruggedness an advantage. The high line-of-sight over the bore axis is less of a concern on the battlefield than inside a home.

The Mini's sights are mounted lower over the bore, making aiming simpler at HD distance. (No need to adjust for the "offset" as with an AR.) The Mini has a truly ambidextrous safety lever, which is good for me, a lefty with rifles, and which, in addition, I find more intuitive than the AR15 safety. The Mini is not as accurate, on average, as an AR15, but is accurate enough at HD distance, and any likely outdoor self-defense distance, too. Friends known me personally, who own both, say their Minis are very reliable, with some saying they trust a Mini over an AR15.

There is nothing wrong with a good M1 Carbine. Not all of the commercial ones are reliable. The safety lever is not lefty-friendly, so I have never given much thought to an M1 Carbine, but people I know who have good ones have no problems trusting them for SD/HD, and the NYPD SOU guys liked their M1 Carbines with 110-grain JSP ammo, in real-world shootouts with armed robbers.

I am actually more likely to use one of my Remington 870 pump guns for home defense, because I have a lot less explaining to do when I use a weapon with which I have fired the qual course. My chief considers me to be subject to agency policy 24/7. Yes, I can claim a "weapon of opportunity" being necessary due to the urgent circumstances, but I am supposed to only use a rifle under certain specified conditions, with a shotgun being OK to use at my discretion. I recently switched AR15s, and have yet to qual with my present new one. Someday, I may be able to certify with a Mini, and qual with one, but that will be far in the future, if my agency holds another cert class.

I am in the twilight of my LE career, so I went ahead and bought a couple of the post-2005 580-series Minis, to be my lifetime utility carbines, which will include home defense in their job description.

One thing I don't like about pump guns is that they are difficult to pump when prone, at least with my long arms. I use shotguns best when standing. Once sitting or prone, I prefer a rifle, and it can be lever or auto. With my bad right knee, I try to avoid kneeling.

 

[Rexster]

I should add that I recently purchased a couple of Marlin 1894 lever rifles chambered in .357 magnum, an 1894C and an 1894CB. With all the election-time panic-buying, when these arrived at a local dealer, they did not get snapped up immediately as usually happens, and I bought one and put the other on layaway, at less than list price. While I believe that a Mini is probably a better all-around utility/HD/SD rifle, a .357 lever rifle is very versatile and handy to have around, too. Life is good.