Varmint Loads for Home Defense AR15?

[HGM22]

This will probably turn into a mess of a thread, but what is everyone's opinions on using light varmint loads in an AR15 for home defense?

I know the rule of thumb is to use something like 77gr HPBT to ensure adequate penetration. In addition, varmint loads out of an AR15 seem to break up quickly and penetrate poorly (6-9'' sometimes).

However, for those living in close quarters to neighbors, might this not be a good thing? I'm kind of of the opinion that its better to wound a bad guy and not hit a neighbor than it is to ensure penetration of the bad guy's vitals but also increase likelihood of hitting a neighbor. In other words, I'd rather take my chances with a wounded bad guy (even if it means I get hurt) than over-penetrate a neighbor's home and hurt said neighbor, especially a child. Am I making any sense?

 

[Tirod]

What loads will the police be using to come in and sort out the situation? Not light varmint rounds, for sure. The perps? Not specialty low penetration rounds. They don't exist anyway. None on the market. Nada. Closest thing is TAP IIRC.

ALL bullets will penetrate - even .22 will go thru 3-4 layers of sheetrock. The point is that since any round fired will penetrate the typical flimsy sheetrock construction of the average American built home, the concept of trying to use lower powered ammo only results in using less effective ammo.

Wounding the intruder isn't stopping the intruder - if he doesn't stop, then he's firing more bullets to stop you, in anger, with even less regard for where they go and what or who they hit. It makes the situation WORSE for all concerned, not better. Now you have a wounded and less ambulatory armed intruder seeking revenge and unable to back out of the house, which then will require the cops coming in to extract them. More bullets flying.

A shoot out in the home will have defined lanes of fire - people won't be shooting 360 degrees willy nilly in any direction, the majority of fire will be in a concentrated channel based on where the doors and hallways are. That may or may not endanger the neighbors, but WILL endanger your family hiding behind you with no cover. Cover means bullet resistant - and the perps could show up with a .30-06 or 12 ga, too. Very few homes will ever withstand that kind of power, it takes poured concrete to stop it. If you can, just leave the house out the back door. If you have to stay - expect bullets to come flying past you with no way to stop them hitting your family.

Should you be able to get to your rifle and have the perps in a standoff, where will they be? Hiding behind the corners and doorways of the house or behind furniture. A short series of well placed shots THRU the object can and will hit them stopping the fight. They no longer shoot and there is less gunfire endangering the nearby inhabitants or your family. The concept of choosing HIGH penetration ammo is exactly why the DOD uses bullets with steel cores - to go thru intermediate barriers and still hit the enemy. If there's a hit, they have less ability to respond and drop out of the fight.

Shooting anything less just means prolonging your danger and the danger the perps bullets may hit your neighbors.

This all takes into consideration that your actual Home Defense plan totally failed and you are focusing on a last ditch defense of your family because the intruders saw you as an easy target with no physical defenses that could stop them, and they had intimate knowledge of what the rewards were.

Fix that first. Don't focus on what to do when your defenses fail and you have to shoot it out. Keep the intruders from even getting in first. THAT is Home Defense and it is a lot safer.

 

[kBob]

Tirod,

Few years back a 40 grain varmint load WAS THE police load.

Not aware anyone has done a big survey on what SWAT teams across the country are ACCTUALLY using.

Anyone have some M&S numbers on various Critter Gitters verses Combat Wombat loads in real shootings inside house hold distances?

All the online Gel Shoots are interesting, but so are records of use on actual bad guys. Does that lesser penetration on Gel translate to poorer performance on bad guys in the "real world?"

-kBob

 

[strambo]

The heavier 77g loads barely get the required 12". Any of them will penetrate a lot less than 00 buck or a pistol bullet (through drywall).

So, pick a good one that will penetrate since it will go through less walls than any other (suitable) option anyways.

kBob, there was a similar thread a few months ago and a link to a video about a recent LE shooting with 50 or 55g TAP (which is a lot better than a 40 varmint load) and they failed pretty bad.

I like them starting with the 62g Fusion, 64g Gold Dot, 62g TAP etc for that reason.

 

[Jackal]

Federal American Eagle 50gr HP's dont penetrate a 1 gallon water jug.

 

[Art Eatman]

To me, self-defense at home is at very close range, in terms of rifle capability. I see no reason why varmint loads would not work quite well when there might be some concern about over-penetration.

I don't tend to think in terms of just one shot and stop to see what happened.

 

[W.E.G.]

All I know is, when you cut loose with that AR indoors, you can kiss your hearing goodbye.

Handgun is gonna put a bad enough hurtin' on ya.

I like to have a gun that I can shoot competently one-handed if I gotta shoot inside the house.

The discussion of the perils of overpenetration of any projectile you can imagine had been done, re-done, and done-over about a million times on the internet. Feel free to search. Otherwise, be cognizant of what may be behind your target at all times. Deflected bullets sometimes carry farther than expected. That much you can be certain.

 

[rcmodel]

varmint loads out of an AR15 seem to break up quickly and penetrate poorly (6-9'' sometimes).

How many adult males do you know who's chest cavity is more then 9" to 11" thick.

To me, an explosive varmint bullet blowing up halfway through the chest cavity would likely be an unsurvivable wound.

My AR is loaded with 55 grain Hornady V-Max right now.
And has been for 25 years.

Attila the Hun would fall down and die after getting everything in his chest turned into tomato soup by one, or two, or three!!

rc

 

[BigBore44]

W.E.G.
In high stress situations such as a shooting, you probably won't lose your hearing. Your ears can blink just like your eyes. It's why some officers swear they just heard their gun "click" when they pulled the trigger. It's a natural protective function.

rc,
You might want to check the springs on your mags. 25 years is a long time to have tension on those mag springs.

 

[rcmodel]

I didn't say they were loaded with the same ammo.

I have GI mags I aquired during the Vietnam war that have been loaded and used since then.

And the springs are still fine, Thank You.

I have 1911 mags from WWI that were loaded with 1917 dated GI .45 ammo when I got them.
The springs are still fine.

rc

 

[Llama Bob]

All I know is, when you cut loose with that AR indoors, you can kiss your hearing goodbye.

This is not true. You will experience some temporary loss, but the permanent loss will be very minor to non-existent. It's not something you want to do day in and day out or even once a month, but a couple of times in your life will not make you deaf.

Shooting big magnums outdoors without ear protection (which hunters do all the time) exposes you to higher SPLs than you'll get from a 5.56 indoors.

 

[BigBore44]

rc,
It was a joke. I think everyone here knows you've forgotten more than most of us will ever learn. Apparently it wasn't so well recieved.

 

[Llama Bob]

As to varmint rounds, I don't recommend them. The AR15 is already challenged in terms of terminal ballistics. Using ammo designed for woodchucks just makes it absurdly more so. A human is half way between a deer and elk sized animal, and deserves ammo suitable for something of that size.

"Over-penetration" is also misunderstood and good barrier penetration is typically actually desirable. Yes, bullets go through walls. But they rarely hit anything of interest when they do so un-aimed. On the other hand, bad guys LOVE to hide behind barriers. That's why the trend in law enforcement and military is to move to barrier blind loads. If you show up to a gunfight with a gun that can't shoot through barriers, you are at a substantial disadvantage.

There are a number of loads using gold dots, bonded bear claws, partitions, fusion, and similar bullets as well as M318mod0 that will serve you well.

 

[benEzra]

All I know is, when you cut loose with that AR indoors, you can kiss your hearing goodbye.

Handgun is gonna put a bad enough hurtin' on ya.]

In terms of peak dBA, a 16" to 20" .223 *without a brake* is comparable in loudness to a 4" 9mm or an 18.5" 12-gauge, and considerably less loud than a .357 revolver. Brakes and comps are a whole different story, though.

As to varmint loads, I personally choose 55gr JHP or SP for my situation, trading a little less penetration for less likelihood of remaining intact and stable through an exterior wall. Any round will penetrate an interior residential wall, but for my situation I don't need or want more penetration than a couple of walls. By all accounts, the Federal 40gr Blitz loads that used to be popular with SWAT did indeed work well (it was arguably those loads that kicked off to the large-scale replacement of the 9mm MP5 with select-fire .223's in the SWAT role, back in the day, though the MO wasn't to fire single shots) but a 55gr or even 77gr HP may be a better balance of single-shot effectiveness vs. penetration for most situations. If I lived in an apartment or in a trailer, I'd certainly consider 40gr or 50gr HP as a defensive load if I thought it necessary and had sufficient reserve capacity, but for most suburban homes, 55gr HP/SP is probably a better choice, or 77gr as circumstances warrant.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

How many adult males do you know who's chest cavity is more then 9" to 11" thick.

This reasoning is idealistic, quixotic, and naive. And this has been debated ad infinitum and I simply can't see how it is still an issue.

Once again, 40% of Americans are overweight and 33% are, sadly, obese. And this is not hunting, but self defense. When hunting, you have luxury of waiting for a good shot presentation or declining the shot. In a self defense situation, you do not have this luxury. The target presentation may be bladed or from the side, and if he is aggressive and armed enough to resort to lethal force, he probably has his arms up between his torso and your weapon. If he is in the presence of mind to do you harm, he may not be immediately affected in intent or ability by the disabling of an arm or a gruesome looking superficial crater blasted through mostly belly fat.

Professionals don't do the over penetration gimmick. Whether it is the Federal Air Marshals protecting a pressurized cabin stuffed with 200 people traveling 700 mph 5 miles above the surface of the earth, the FBI HRT guys stacking up end a hostage situation, or any of the thousands of Regular Jo police officers who patrol our streets every day, they're armed with bullets designed to reach the vitals of most people from almost any conceivable angle, even after penetrating some common barriers. Some might argue the needs of the home owner differ slightly, but how? Same bad guys. Same potential situations, esp if you also carry concealed and/or keep a firearm in the vehicle. Even if you concede slightly less penetration is needed, people go too far with it. In no way is a bullet designed for a 50 pound coyote adequate for the needs of a home owner with an uninvited 220 pound knife wielding goon in his living room at 3 in the AM. Same goes with birdshot. People should load in accordance to the size of the job. It's a pretty big leap to get from "this works really well on pigeons" to "this is an awesome home defense load." Got a meth pigeon problem in your neighborhood?

Common sense still applies. Unless the intruder in your living room is the size of a sock puppet, you should probably have something bigger than varmint bullets.

 

[kBob]

Ok just ran across a Marshall & Sanow list that rated 40 grain Federal .223 load as 99 Percent one shot stops with 125 shootings.


http://www.plinking.net/stop/index.htm


I'll bet that milk jug won't be attacking innocent kids and old folks again anytime soon either.................

Gosh! What awful performance!! Just 99 percent!!!!

Oh wait......that was higher than 00 Buck or 4 buck from a 12 gauge.......or even slugs......stupid real world!

-kBob

 

[Orcon]

This debate always reminds me of people that try to use birdshot for self defense shotguns. When I lived in Atlanta a police officer told me about a home invasion call he had responded to. When police arrived upon the scene there were two dead people in the home. One man had a gaping hole in his chest and the other had been beaten to death with what appeared to be a metal bar. Further inspection revealed that the perpetrator had gained entry to the home and was shot in the chest by the homeowner with a shotgun loaded with birdshot. The perpetrator then took the shotgun from the homeowner and proceeded to use it as a cudgel against him. The perp had beaten the man so vigorously that the stock was spintered and fragmented and continued beating him with the barreled action until finally falling from his own wounds.


Just food for thought.

 

[Moparnut]

Having a varmint round is better than nothing. A lot of people get really hung up on penetration. It is an important aspect but not the whole picture. If someone or something takes multiple hits in the same general area the body will start to breakdown. The smaller fragments will lead to more damage spread out over larger area. I don't believe most people take one shot and check to see if a person is down. My guess is that most people in a life or death situation will pull the trigger multiple times before stopping.

 

[Orcon]

Having a varmint round is better than nothing. A lot of people get really hung up on penetration. It is an important aspect but not the whole picture. If someone or something takes multiple hits in the same general area the body will start to breakdown. The smaller fragments will lead to more damage spread out over larger area. I don't believe most people take one shot and check to see if a person is down. My guess is that most people in a life or death situation will pull the trigger multiple times before stopping.

Of course a varmint round is better than nothing but the argument isnt varmint v. Nothing, it's varmint v. Everything else. We all understand that you go to war with the army you've got that was never in question. When it comes to protecting my home, my kids, my wife I would want the most purpose drive design available. Preferably a recoiless rifle that launches dobermans and pirrahnas armed with KRISS Vs and bad attitudes but until that is a thing it's the 45 ACP and 12 gauge 00 magnums for me.

 

[matrem]

Birdshot from shotguns & varmint bullets in .223 are much different Orcon.
Yep, I've shot a lot of stuff with both.

55 Blitzkings for ARs and #1, # 4, or 00 buckshot in twelves, # 3 buck in twenty.

 

[Art Eatman]

The Vietnam-era load was a 55-grain solid, IIRC. Lotsa dead bodies, on out beyond 100 meters.

So why wouldn't a 55-grain soft point work at inside of twenty yards?

I rather doubt that the Bubba Blimpos of this world are given to burglaries and home invasions...

 

[MTMilitiaman]

The point is that we are not planning for a best-case worst-case scenario or an average anomaly here, or at least I am not. I live in a quiet low middle class suburban apt in a city that prides itself as being the liberal arts fluffy "blue"city in a red state that had 11 total firearm homicides in 2014. If I have to use lethal force it is very much an outlier event, no less bizarre than a UFO abduction. So I am not planning for a frontal chest shot on a skinny guy. I am planning on a big dude dressed in layers with that wild, crazy, determined look in his eyes. For me, 00 buck with some slugs in a sidesaddle for the 12 gauge, 77 gr OTM for the AR, and 180 gr or 200 gr JHPs in the 10mm.

You can prepare as you wish, it's your life.

Birdshot from shotguns & varmint bullets in .223 are much different Orcon.

No, it's not. Both have similar penetration in tissue simulant and anecdotally in real shootings. Both are designed for game much smaller and lighter than humans and thus provide what has been demonstrated repeatedly to be superficial wounds.

Penetration really is the whole point here, fellas (hehe, that's what she said...)

Seriously. In the grand scheme of things, we are shooting something to poke a hole in it. If that hole isn't deep enough to poke a hole in something the bad guy needs, you lose. Period. Penetration is your friend.

 

[rcmodel]

I gotta wonder how many people here have ever shot any living creature with a 55 grain ballistic tip??

Until you do, you really have no frame of reference to the internal distruction they do.

rc

 

[BigBore44]

rc,
I was actually wondering the same thing. I won't go so far as to they the turn internals into mush. But they are devistating.

 

[Walkalong]

People are soft. The only thing that will matter is what the bullet has to go through first. Not too many muggers and burglars in flak jackets.

Are there better bullets as far as holding together? Sure. Is it needed? I highly doubt it in 99% of cases. In the 1%, shoot them again.

People get too riled up about this. Just disagree, make your point, and let it go.