Nine rounds of .380 vs five rounds of .38
- Thread starter Panzerschwein
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fastbolt
Member
I keep drafting posts in this thread, and then deleting them. Maybe this one will get posted.
I voted 5 rounds of .38 Spl.
Why?
I'm a revolver shooter who has practiced shooting 5-shot snubs for many years. I prefer the heavier bullet weights of the .38 Spl over the .380 ACP, especially when some of the better +P hollowpoints that have been tweaked and optimized for use in short-barreled revolvers are involved.
I know folks (LE and non-LE) who have favored using largish .380's, though. They use and shoot them well, so that's fine. Why not? I'm not responsible for making their choices for them, or using their choices for them. I don't have to agree or disagree with their choices, so it doesn't affect me. Their privilege and responsibility, including any and all consequences. (As it is for all of us.)
I once owned a Beretta M84 double stack .380 more than 25 years ago. I'd MUCH rather carry my similarly sized 3913, 3913TSW or CS9 single stacks. (My double stack G26's and SW999c offer the ability to carry 2-3 more rounds than those single stacks, too.)
Nowadays I own a pair of LCP's. I only got back into owning the .380 ACP because I found I could carry them in tighter pants pockets (holstered) which wouldn't let me carry one of my J-frames. I have no use for a larger .380 pistol. That's me.
The trade-off is they're still .380's, even though I'm using some of the best of the major brand JHP's available. (Of course, there's the .380 users who will argue that only ball ammo is useful, because of its penetration abilities, but that's another twist on the topic.
)
FWIW, when it comes to "pocketable" pistols and revolvers, I still place my primary emphasis on the proper functioning of each, and the ability to make consistently accurate, controllable and (hopefully) effective shot placement of the first few shots fired. No "range warm-ups". The first shots fired in some demanding drill or training scenario doesn't get the option for excuses being applied. That means sufficiently frequent, realistic practice (and hopefully some initial and recurrent training efforts).
I'm less wrapped up about sheer capacity concerns. But hey, I carried a 6-shot revolver on & off-duty as a younger man, and considered myself equipped with a "higher capacity" weapon when I carried my Commander (7+1). My issued and personally-owned off-duty weapons have had "capacities" of 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 14 & 15 rounds (with "+1" in applicable pistols).
Well, okay, once upon a time I briefly carried a 4-shot COP .357 Derringer off-duty (gift from my dad).
If someone already owns a largish compact single stack .380 of similar size (or larger) than some of the newer 9's? Let'em enjoy using it. Maybe they can shoot it significantly better, faster and more controllably than a 5-shot snub.
If they own both? Let'em use their experiences in shooting both, and make the decision for themselves.
Doesn't mean they can't continue to compare their experiences with both guns over time though. If there's a local handgun sporting/competition event (IDPA) available, maybe they could try using both guns in it/them, and see whether their experience changes their mind about which gun (if either) might be preferable, and under what conditions.
If they just like one or the other? Well, that's a decision, too.
Tempest in a teapot. Pick one and work to master it. It's a tool. Some tools are better for some tasks than others, and some tool-users are better at using any tools than some other folks.
I voted 5 rounds of .38 Spl.
Why?
I'm a revolver shooter who has practiced shooting 5-shot snubs for many years. I prefer the heavier bullet weights of the .38 Spl over the .380 ACP, especially when some of the better +P hollowpoints that have been tweaked and optimized for use in short-barreled revolvers are involved.
I know folks (LE and non-LE) who have favored using largish .380's, though. They use and shoot them well, so that's fine. Why not? I'm not responsible for making their choices for them, or using their choices for them. I don't have to agree or disagree with their choices, so it doesn't affect me. Their privilege and responsibility, including any and all consequences. (As it is for all of us.)
I once owned a Beretta M84 double stack .380 more than 25 years ago. I'd MUCH rather carry my similarly sized 3913, 3913TSW or CS9 single stacks. (My double stack G26's and SW999c offer the ability to carry 2-3 more rounds than those single stacks, too.)
Nowadays I own a pair of LCP's. I only got back into owning the .380 ACP because I found I could carry them in tighter pants pockets (holstered) which wouldn't let me carry one of my J-frames. I have no use for a larger .380 pistol. That's me.
The trade-off is they're still .380's, even though I'm using some of the best of the major brand JHP's available. (Of course, there's the .380 users who will argue that only ball ammo is useful, because of its penetration abilities, but that's another twist on the topic.
)FWIW, when it comes to "pocketable" pistols and revolvers, I still place my primary emphasis on the proper functioning of each, and the ability to make consistently accurate, controllable and (hopefully) effective shot placement of the first few shots fired. No "range warm-ups". The first shots fired in some demanding drill or training scenario doesn't get the option for excuses being applied. That means sufficiently frequent, realistic practice (and hopefully some initial and recurrent training efforts).
I'm less wrapped up about sheer capacity concerns. But hey, I carried a 6-shot revolver on & off-duty as a younger man, and considered myself equipped with a "higher capacity" weapon when I carried my Commander (7+1). My issued and personally-owned off-duty weapons have had "capacities" of 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 14 & 15 rounds (with "+1" in applicable pistols).
Well, okay, once upon a time I briefly carried a 4-shot COP .357 Derringer off-duty (gift from my dad).
If someone already owns a largish compact single stack .380 of similar size (or larger) than some of the newer 9's? Let'em enjoy using it. Maybe they can shoot it significantly better, faster and more controllably than a 5-shot snub.
If they own both? Let'em use their experiences in shooting both, and make the decision for themselves.
Doesn't mean they can't continue to compare their experiences with both guns over time though. If there's a local handgun sporting/competition event (IDPA) available, maybe they could try using both guns in it/them, and see whether their experience changes their mind about which gun (if either) might be preferable, and under what conditions.
If they just like one or the other? Well, that's a decision, too.
Tempest in a teapot. Pick one and work to master it. It's a tool. Some tools are better for some tasks than others, and some tool-users are better at using any tools than some other folks.
Deaf Smith
Member
wrdwrght
Member
Just how protracted do you imagine your gunfight will be?
MachIVshooter
Member
Neither of those options appeal to me. Both are fairly large and heavy for their respective performance by today's standards.
I opted for a DB9, which is smaller, slimmer and lighter than both with 7 rounds of 9x19.
I opted for a DB9, which is smaller, slimmer and lighter than both with 7 rounds of 9x19.
Posted by wrdwrght
But let's think that one through.
Suppose a violent criminal actor starts moving at me at, say, five meters per second, from a distance of about ten meters. He may not be moving in a straight line--he may be coming around a vehicle or dumpster or a couple of fuel pumps.
I move laterally, to get behind a car or car door if possible, and draw quickly and fire.
Want to start the clock then?
Let's do. I should think that one can reasonably expect that, when the first shot is fired, he will be about three meters away, give or take.
If I have not stopped him in less than a second after that, I will be in a world of hurt.
If there is a second assailant who chooses to persist, we would add the time for that part of the encounter.
Tom Givens' data sample shows the great majority of defensive shootings occurring with five yards. That would tend to support an estimate of about one second, too.
But that's all it is.
I do not imagine anything.
But let's think that one through.
Suppose a violent criminal actor starts moving at me at, say, five meters per second, from a distance of about ten meters. He may not be moving in a straight line--he may be coming around a vehicle or dumpster or a couple of fuel pumps.
I move laterally, to get behind a car or car door if possible, and draw quickly and fire.
Want to start the clock then?
Let's do. I should think that one can reasonably expect that, when the first shot is fired, he will be about three meters away, give or take.
If I have not stopped him in less than a second after that, I will be in a world of hurt.
If there is a second assailant who chooses to persist, we would add the time for that part of the encounter.
Tom Givens' data sample shows the great majority of defensive shootings occurring with five yards. That would tend to support an estimate of about one second, too.
But that's all it is.
R.W.Dale
Member
And ^ assumes the assailant is armed. If he's not he literally has to have just about halfway killed you from disparity of force before you have legal justification to employ your firearm.
The moral of the story. It's probably gonna be more treyvon Zimmerman than Miami shootout.
The moral of the story. It's probably gonna be more treyvon Zimmerman than Miami shootout.
Posted by R. W. Dale
It assumes wither that the defender has an objective basis for reasonably believing that the assailant is armed, or that there is a clear disparity of force.
One would hope that the defender could avoid bing pinned and pounded, which would mean that he or she would be able to fire more than one shot, but yes, it probably would fall toward that end of the scale.
Zendude
Member
I have both a Bersa 380 and a 38 snubbie. The pluses for the Bersa are a softer DA trigger than revolver, SA and less recoil makes follow up shots fast and accurate, and its profile is slimmer which makes IWB carry more comfortable. The plus for the snubbie is a simpler design without the risk of fte and ftl jams.
My personal experience is that it it takes me much more practice to be accurate with the snubbie because of the long heavy trigger pull, especially when shooting one handed. I found that i can shoot much more accurately with the Bersa. But at self defense distance pinpoint accuracy is not needed.
My personal experience is that it it takes me much more practice to be accurate with the snubbie because of the long heavy trigger pull, especially when shooting one handed. I found that i can shoot much more accurately with the Bersa. But at self defense distance pinpoint accuracy is not needed.
Glock 42
I carried a 5 shot revolver for years, but use a GLOCK 42 now for pocket carry.
I prefer the MUCH FASTER RELOAD and 2 extra rounds in the gun as well as the very low maintenance of the GLOCK pistols.
What really won me over was the very light perceived recoil of this pistol. Compared to a S&W model 36 shooting +P or a RUGER LC9, it is an absolute pleasure.
As I get older, recoil has become more of an issue, so the .380ACP has become my constant companion.
Also, I would take the BERETTA 84 over a 4 inch barreled .38 Special as a house or car gun.
Jim
I carried a 5 shot revolver for years, but use a GLOCK 42 now for pocket carry.
I prefer the MUCH FASTER RELOAD and 2 extra rounds in the gun as well as the very low maintenance of the GLOCK pistols.
What really won me over was the very light perceived recoil of this pistol. Compared to a S&W model 36 shooting +P or a RUGER LC9, it is an absolute pleasure.
As I get older, recoil has become more of an issue, so the .380ACP has become my constant companion.
Also, I would take the BERETTA 84 over a 4 inch barreled .38 Special as a house or car gun.
Jim
AStone
Member
I'm in the process of reading this interesting thread (I'm only on page 2 so far) because I have a similar decision to make. I've been a revolver guy for a decade, my main one being a SW 642 (.38 spl 5 rnds). I thought I always would be. But I've been bitten (again; third time now) by the semi-auto bug and am strongly considering replacing it with a Ruger SR9c (9 mm, 10 rnds in CC mode; 17 in HD mode).
For reasons I won't get into here, I want only one, so will probably sell the 642. (If you'd asked me even several months ago, I'd have said never -- again, another story.)
So this is interesting for me. I know a decent amount about .38 spl, but nothing about .380. Can someone please inform me -- roughly -- how it stacks up against 9 mm? That'll help me evaluate opinions here for my situation.
For reasons I won't get into here, I want only one, so will probably sell the 642. (If you'd asked me even several months ago, I'd have said never -- again, another story.)
So this is interesting for me. I know a decent amount about .38 spl, but nothing about .380. Can someone please inform me -- roughly -- how it stacks up against 9 mm? That'll help me evaluate opinions here for my situation.
huntsman
Member
Compare apples to apples:The .380acp(95gr FMJ) and the .38spl (130gr) are close to identical.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/2900353049/winchester-usa-ammunition-38-special-130-grain-full-metal-jacket
the 130gr lead round nose is what I seem to find locally but FMJ is about the same I believe.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/2900360402/winchester-usa-ammunition-380-acp-95-grain-full-metal-jacket?cm_vc=ProductFinding
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/2900353049/winchester-usa-ammunition-38-special-130-grain-full-metal-jacket
the 130gr lead round nose is what I seem to find locally but FMJ is about the same I believe.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/2900360402/winchester-usa-ammunition-380-acp-95-grain-full-metal-jacket?cm_vc=ProductFinding
If I'm not carrying my S&W Model 49 then I'm carrying my Glock 19 which holds sixteen rounds of 9mm. I own one 380 pistol and that's a Colt Model 1908 Hammerless that was actually manufactured in 1908 so it's not a CCW piece. I feel okay with either the S&W or the Glock.
Deaf Smith
Member
huntsman,
Apples to apples? The 130gr FMJ .38 load is one of the worst one can pick for a .38. Who would even think of using it? The .38 already has plenty of penetration so no FMJ is needed (unlike the .380.)
Lets try some of the top .380s to the top .38s.
Buffalo Bore:
380 Auto +P Ammo - 90 gr. Jacketed Hollow Point (1200fps M.E. 288 ft. lbs. from Walther PPK-3.5 inch barrel.)
.38 Special +P Ammo - 158 gr. L.S.W.C.H.P. --G.C. (S&W mod. 60, 2 inch- 1040 fps, 379 ft. lbs.) and it hurts I tell you.
or more sedate:
Standard Pressure Short Barrel Low Flash Heavy .38 Special Ammo - 158 gr. Soft Lead SWC-HC (S&W mod. 60, 2 inch barrel - 854 fps, 256 ft. lbs.)
But unlike the .380 load, the standard pressure .38 load still passes the 12 inch penetration minimum.
Deaf
Apples to apples? The 130gr FMJ .38 load is one of the worst one can pick for a .38. Who would even think of using it? The .38 already has plenty of penetration so no FMJ is needed (unlike the .380.)
Lets try some of the top .380s to the top .38s.
Buffalo Bore:
380 Auto +P Ammo - 90 gr. Jacketed Hollow Point (1200fps M.E. 288 ft. lbs. from Walther PPK-3.5 inch barrel.)
.38 Special +P Ammo - 158 gr. L.S.W.C.H.P. --G.C. (S&W mod. 60, 2 inch- 1040 fps, 379 ft. lbs.) and it hurts I tell you.
or more sedate:
Standard Pressure Short Barrel Low Flash Heavy .38 Special Ammo - 158 gr. Soft Lead SWC-HC (S&W mod. 60, 2 inch barrel - 854 fps, 256 ft. lbs.)
But unlike the .380 load, the standard pressure .38 load still passes the 12 inch penetration minimum.
Deaf
springer99
Member
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2007
- Messages
- 416
From the OP - " Well I've got a Bersa Thunder which takes 8 round magazines, plus one in the chamber equals 9 rounds of .380 ACP. The gun has been 100% reliable so far.
I've also got a S&W 642 snub nose revolver, which has 5 rounds of .38 special on board. It too, has been very reliable.
So reliability aside, which would you rather have on tap: 9 rounds of .380 or 5 rounds of .38 special?"
If reliability isn't in the equation, then I'd probably say that it's a toss-up. Go with what you have in your hand. Of course, if reliability IS a factor, and] IT ALWAYS IS in a defensive situation, then my vote definitely goes to the 38Special in a revolver.
I've got a lot of pistols that I consider to be 100% reliable, even though they've (rarely) had a malfunction of one kind or another. My revolvers, on the other hand, always go bang, regardless of what I feed them.
I've also got a S&W 642 snub nose revolver, which has 5 rounds of .38 special on board. It too, has been very reliable.
So reliability aside, which would you rather have on tap: 9 rounds of .380 or 5 rounds of .38 special?"
If reliability isn't in the equation, then I'd probably say that it's a toss-up. Go with what you have in your hand. Of course, if reliability IS a factor, and] IT ALWAYS IS in a defensive situation, then my vote definitely goes to the 38Special in a revolver.
I've got a lot of pistols that I consider to be 100% reliable, even though they've (rarely) had a malfunction of one kind or another. My revolvers, on the other hand, always go bang, regardless of what I feed them.
AlfonsDeWolf
Member
FBI penetration guidelines are 12-18"
huntsman
Member
Ah the military as in M41
I don't own a .38spl but my daughter does so when I'm at WW buying .380 or .45acp I look for .38spl and so far all I've seen on the shelves is 130gr LRN or FMJ, so I'm guessing a lot of casual .38spl owners are using it.
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MCgunner
Member
A Bersa is a belt sized gun. I can (and do) carry a .357 magnum on a belt...or a .45 or a 9x19. Actually, I pocket my Kel Tec P11 and it produces 1263 fps/410 ft lbs with a +P 115 XTP.
If you want a 9x19, there are choices, lots of good choices. The PT709 slim is a good choice. I never try to make a .380 into a 9 or a .38 into a .357 or a .45 Colt into a .454 Cssull etc, etc. The PF9 weighs 12 ounces, is well under 1" thick, and pockets nicely. I'd get one, but I have no problem pocketing the old P11 I already have and it's a tack driver, 3.5" groups at 25 yards, only 1" thick and only 14 ounces unloaded.
No, I don't need no stinkin' .380. I don't really like .380 as a cartridge now that I can carry a 9 just as easily. But, my .38 rides in my pocket 24/7 unless I deem that I need the 10+1 firepower of the 9. BUT, carrying my .38 in my pocket and my .357 magnum on my hip for trips to the big city cures a lot, too. A NY reload is faster than a magazine swap. And, heck, I always have 5 .22LRs in my weak side pocket just in case.
Everyone has their preferences. I will always and forever prefer revolvers to autos. The statement above of carrying a GLOCK in a "smart carry" ain't real smart unless you've had all the kids you want and and wish to do your own sterilization. Hey, I'm 62, no more kids for me, but I still like my boys. DA guns like the Bersa are a viable choice, though. Long DA first shot just like a revolver....safe. I'd carry the revolver if I had to do "smart carry" and the only auto choice I had was an unsafe action. I bought "thunderwear" and tried it. It's in my box of unused holsters at the moment. Thing is worthless if you're seated, uncomfortable, and just not real "smart". I'd probably use it for a wallet in rough neighborhoods, but not a weapon. I wanna be able to get at the weapon quickly if I need it.
I practice a lot with my revolvers at handshake range to 25 yards. I do point the gun more naturally than any of my autos from the hip. At 9 feet, I can plant a .38 into the 9 ring every shot drawing and shooting from the hip. At 7 yards I'm raising the gun to point shoot from isosceles ready, but still don't have to use the sights until I get beyond 7 yards. If you can't do that, you need to practice and maybe find a platform with which you CAN do that. It's easier for me to do that with a Revolver, though I've never tried it with a Bersa specifically. But, I feel sure the revolver would win out with me shooting.
Revolvers are inherently safe, especially as regards to Glocks, but also as regards to ANY auto because everything is visible. You can SEE it's loaded! I feel better carrying it in a pocket knowing that nothing outside the pocket could get into the trigger and make it go off. BUT, this really isn't a problem with a true DA gun like the Bersa. If the Bersa suits you better, if you shoot it better, then that'd be the choice. If you shoot the revolver better, though, .38 IS a better caliber and the firepower issue is just a non-issue with me between THOSE two. If I can't get it done in five shots, it ain't gonna get done with 10. And, heck, I'm about as fast with a speedloader as I am with a spare magazine. But, I'd BETTER be behind cover by the time I need a speedloader, speed strip, or magazine. One does not stand out in the open shootiing and reloading against one person, let alone 20 gang members and survive.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, there's more to this decision than reload speed or a couple of rounds extra capacity....much more.
Actually, I pocket my Kel Tec P11 and it produces 1263 fps/410 ft lbs with a +P 115 XTP. If you want a 9x19, there are choices, lots of good choices. The PT709 slim is a good choice. I never try to make a .380 into a 9 or a .38 into a .357 or a .45 Colt into a .454 Cssull etc, etc. The PF9 weighs 12 ounces, is well under 1" thick, and pockets nicely. I'd get one, but I have no problem pocketing the old P11 I already have and it's a tack driver, 3.5" groups at 25 yards, only 1" thick and only 14 ounces unloaded.
No, I don't need no stinkin' .380. I don't really like .380 as a cartridge now that I can carry a 9 just as easily. But, my .38 rides in my pocket 24/7 unless I deem that I need the 10+1 firepower of the 9. BUT, carrying my .38 in my pocket and my .357 magnum on my hip for trips to the big city cures a lot, too. A NY reload is faster than a magazine swap. And, heck, I always have 5 .22LRs in my weak side pocket just in case.
Everyone has their preferences. I will always and forever prefer revolvers to autos. The statement above of carrying a GLOCK in a "smart carry" ain't real smart unless you've had all the kids you want and and wish to do your own sterilization. Hey, I'm 62, no more kids for me, but I still like my boys. DA guns like the Bersa are a viable choice, though. Long DA first shot just like a revolver....safe. I'd carry the revolver if I had to do "smart carry" and the only auto choice I had was an unsafe action. I bought "thunderwear" and tried it. It's in my box of unused holsters at the moment. Thing is worthless if you're seated, uncomfortable, and just not real "smart". I'd probably use it for a wallet in rough neighborhoods, but not a weapon. I wanna be able to get at the weapon quickly if I need it.
I practice a lot with my revolvers at handshake range to 25 yards. I do point the gun more naturally than any of my autos from the hip. At 9 feet, I can plant a .38 into the 9 ring every shot drawing and shooting from the hip. At 7 yards I'm raising the gun to point shoot from isosceles ready, but still don't have to use the sights until I get beyond 7 yards. If you can't do that, you need to practice and maybe find a platform with which you CAN do that. It's easier for me to do that with a Revolver, though I've never tried it with a Bersa specifically. But, I feel sure the revolver would win out with me shooting.
Revolvers are inherently safe, especially as regards to Glocks, but also as regards to ANY auto because everything is visible. You can SEE it's loaded! I feel better carrying it in a pocket knowing that nothing outside the pocket could get into the trigger and make it go off. BUT, this really isn't a problem with a true DA gun like the Bersa. If the Bersa suits you better, if you shoot it better, then that'd be the choice. If you shoot the revolver better, though, .38 IS a better caliber and the firepower issue is just a non-issue with me between THOSE two. If I can't get it done in five shots, it ain't gonna get done with 10. And, heck, I'm about as fast with a speedloader as I am with a spare magazine. But, I'd BETTER be behind cover by the time I need a speedloader, speed strip, or magazine. One does not stand out in the open shootiing and reloading against one person, let alone 20 gang members and survive.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, there's more to this decision than reload speed or a couple of rounds extra capacity....much more.
MCgunner
Member
OH, BTW, I do have a gun that could be considered similar to the Bersa...a Radom P64. It point shoots amazingly well for me, but only holds 7 rounds. 9x18 is pretty much a +P .380 already without getting crazy. I hardly ever carry the thing. The sights are pretty hard to acquire on it and the DA to SA transition is pretty touchy. It ain't the perfect gun for me, but it's pretty good, just not good enough for me to swap my revolver for it on any given day unless I just feel like it.
I hardly ever carry the thing. The sights are pretty hard to acquire on it and the DA to SA transition is pretty touchy. It ain't the perfect gun for me, but it's pretty good, just not good enough for me to swap my revolver for it on any given day unless I just feel like it. MCgunner
Member
In .38, I carry a mildly +P 5.0 grains of Unique behind a 158 JHP. They sure knock down the hogs in my trap with authority.
Most of the time I check the trap with a hog in it, the .38's what's in my pocket.
Matthew Temkin
Member
Deaf, I have an older Smith 19 and it jams up after 30 rounds or so of lead .38's.
A good cleaning solves the problem but is this a forcing cone issue?
A good cleaning solves the problem but is this a forcing cone issue?
BSA1
member
The 158 gr. RNL standard 38 Special has a well deserved reputation with the Police as a widow maker. Since you are comparing apples to apples it puts the .380 in the same widow maker category.
For target use and plinking fine but Wally World is hardly the source for top of the line self defense ammunition. You have a vast shopping network and a vast research library at your fingertips.
Which opens up a new discussion about carrying a powerful higher capacity handgun and since a handgun is a poor second to a long gun why carrying a carbine or shotgun are better choices.
fastbolt
Member
Nicely said.
It often seems to be more about the shooter/user than whichever smallish, baseline caliber handgun may be used in some unexpected personal defensive scenario, I'd think.
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