NJ legislature makes deal - 10 rd limit exchanged for reasonable deviations
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Willie Sutton
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^^^
Here's a definition of "reasonable" that ought to satisfy Trent
"Reasonable" arms ownership is a level of ownership that provides the citizens sufficient arms to be able to both secure their immediate personal safety, and to maintain a parity with the Government sufficient to wage a successful campaign of assymetric warfare against enemies both foreign and domestic. It is sufficient arms to assist the government in defense against enemies foreign, and equally sufficient to balance the government which itself may become the enemy domestic. It is a twofold sufficiency: (1): Posession of sufficient arms to allow a citizen to provide for the personal and immediate security of himself, family, and those he choses to protect, and (2): Posession of sufficient quanlity and quantity of arms to enable the citizenry to act as the final check in the checks and balances included in the Constitution that were enshrined in order to prevent the Republic from devolving into a tyrrany.
That's "reasonable".
Ask yourself why NJ fears it. Ask why Cook County fears it. And NYC, and California? The more corrupt the government, the more fear they hold that one day.... just one day.... they will push too far.
Willie
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Here's a definition of "reasonable" that ought to satisfy Trent
"Reasonable" arms ownership is a level of ownership that provides the citizens sufficient arms to be able to both secure their immediate personal safety, and to maintain a parity with the Government sufficient to wage a successful campaign of assymetric warfare against enemies both foreign and domestic. It is sufficient arms to assist the government in defense against enemies foreign, and equally sufficient to balance the government which itself may become the enemy domestic. It is a twofold sufficiency: (1): Posession of sufficient arms to allow a citizen to provide for the personal and immediate security of himself, family, and those he choses to protect, and (2): Posession of sufficient quanlity and quantity of arms to enable the citizenry to act as the final check in the checks and balances included in the Constitution that were enshrined in order to prevent the Republic from devolving into a tyrrany.
That's "reasonable".
Ask yourself why NJ fears it. Ask why Cook County fears it. And NYC, and California? The more corrupt the government, the more fear they hold that one day.... just one day.... they will push too far.
Willie
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xXxplosive
Member
Just for the record.......sling shots and rubber band guns are illegal also and on the books...carrying a pocket knife, now that's a whole separate issue. The people in NJ are defenseless on the streets and the BG's know it.
They may be corrupt but they aren't stupid.
They know what happens when people get taxed too much. Pushed too far. Trodden on for too long.
History is full of examples of what happens when ideological, social, and economic divides reach a boiling point. Sometimes it works out for the tyrants... sometimes it works out for the people.
Our founding fathers wanted to ensure, then, and forever, that if it ever happened in this country, that the people would win.
But, back then, you also had a body of people ruling for the people, not over them. You had a body of individuals who had a moral, rational, and (should I dare say it?) "divinely inspired" code of ethical behavior to guide their actions; not polls, and lobbyists, and special interests. Back then you had a government which could stay within it's means, didn't reach too far, didn't try to provide more than was reasonable or called for; all to avoid putting undue burdens on either the individual or the nation.
The principals of government - for those who seek their mandate and charter from the governed - should be simple. "Do the best for the people, with what resources you have been granted by them."
Governments who stray too far from this mandate are no longer governing with the consent of the governed - they are governing for the sake of governing. Sheer power, entitlement, secrecy, mistrust, heavy handed answers to everything; these are all warning signs on the road to corruption and tyranny. A Government which turns to minding it's own interests - growing to fill every void, reaching in to every aspect of daily life, manipulating every aspect of society - is not governing for the sake of the people; it's governing for the sake of governing; for advancing those who are tending the flock.
The reason we have a second amendment is for when that machine breaks down - for whatever reason - it can be rebuilt, and better, by the people themselves; and not a radical, armed faction of the very government which had broken and derailed the country in the first place, or by a foreign influence.
Why?
Because the fundamental right to exercise power to defend one's life or way of life, via force when necessary, is a human right, a natural state of being, dating back to the first days of man.
You can try to sugar coat it to make it palatable, or recognize it for what it is, or try to ignore it, or complain about it, or change it, but the bottom line is sometimes good people have to remove bad people from the timeline, to make the world a better place for subsequent generations; lest they themselves are removed, and their values and beliefs extinguished for all time.
pharmer
Member
I moved out of that liberal looney land 34 years ago. Those tools are convinced that moving mag limits from 15 to 10 will save lives. "Mass murderers will have more reload time allowing victims to run away." Wow, now that's a solution that only a looney liberal can embrace. I love the "gunshine state" although enough looney liberals are moving down threatening to capsize us into a "blue" state. Joe
Crazy stuff going on. I belong to range near the border of NJ and we get many guys coming across the bridge to be able to shoot in a nice environment borrow standard capacity mags while they shoot. The scary thing is I made a wrong turn the last time I was there and ended up in NJ for all of 3 minutes. If I had been in a random stop I would have been in violation of current law not to mention this horse dookie they are trying to get passed. I guess if that does happen I'm a felon for making a wrong turn. I'm not to sure NJ cops would give me a break. I'll have to pay more attention next trip to the range.
xXxplosive
Member
What break..........Where ? Not here Buddy......don't do that again.
And don't come across the bridge....there's nothin' here for ya.
And don't come across the bridge....there's nothin' here for ya.
xXxplosive
Member
Yup.......I shoot at a range in PA and really don't care much for the ride back to NJ even though it's perfectly legal. Just don't need the headache but there's really no place left that I would consider worth going to in Jersey and I've been to most.
It's discussions like this that make me thankful for my Freedoms in what we call "Free-America" (the states without these ridiculous restrictions). That's not to say we're not with you all, and we try to help with what we can, just makes me thankful. Half the time the range toys never even leave my truck between range trips.
We just have to keep in mind that even though some of us live in a so called "free state" it might not always be that case 5 years or a decade from now. Looking at the other threads here, from Missouri to Rhode Island they could be in similar circumstances as New Jersey in short time if they don't keep up the fight.It's discussions like this that make me thankful for my Freedoms in what we call "Free-America" (the states without these ridiculous restrictions). That's not to say we're not with you all, and we try to help with what we can, just makes me thankful. Half the time the range toys never even leave my truck between range trips.
And here in Guntucky we already have had politicians calling for three day waiting periods, assault weapons bans, licensing of gun owners and registration of firearms. New Jersey gun owners have had to deal with the state's anti-gun stance since the 1920's. And every couple of years it seems to get worse.
Not only do NJ gun-owners have to deal with draconian and antiquated gun laws. But they have to deal with anti-gun politicians, there are anti-gun so called 'religious ministers' who label law abiding gun owners as terrorists! As well as a anti-gun press (nj.com), anti-gun radio and TV outlets. And NJ gun owners face an anti-gun populace who never known what it was to grow up in a household with firearms because of the very low overall firearm ownership in NJ .
And that was the result of the 1966 FID law which requires intrusive background checks, requires one to apply at the police station, requires 'character references', references from employers, requires fingerprints (yes get fingerprinted to buy a gun!) , excessive fees and a 3 month wait to get a dumb card which enables people to go through yet another background check with a state NICS cost of $15 to buy a .22 LR squirrel rifle.
(That is IF of course the state NICS is open....See they close on all state holidays, Sundays and whenever it snows. And if THAT isn't an infringement on the Second Amendment then I don't know what is.).
You want to buy a handgun? Sure...One handgun per month per "permit to purchase"... permit and that includes air pistols and black powder pistols.
If anyone needs a break it is NJ gun owners. They have been under oppression for decades. Already another mindless politician in that state has called upon the state attorney general to implement the 'smart gun' legislation that was signed into law back in 2002 which means that by 2017 only smart guns can be sold in that state. Yes it was signed into law in 2002. And since the recent news that a smart gun has been developed, that triggers the smart gun law and that means the 'clock has started' .
Where is the NRA ? Did they throw NJ under the bus as some claim? I don't have the answer. Gun owners in NJ have done their best to fight off these various anti-gun laws, but gun owners there are in the minority.
Then there are those who fought for years and even decades and ended up throwing in the towel. They decided to move out of the state and leave the anti-gun atmosphere and high taxes behind and no one can fault them for doing so.
And for the rest of us, no matter what state one considers free, it may not be that way forever. I already have seen comments here on THR that Texas and Florida could become blue states. Virginia has an anti-gun governor. Connecticut might confiscate rifles and/or arrest gun owners. Colorado passed anti-gun legislation. Maryland has passed some every anti-gun legislation as well as NY State and California. No state is safe and we need to keep the good fight. Not just for us, but for our children and grandchildren.
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Horny Toad
Member
Amen, Midwest. Amen.
It is exactly as bad/crazy as you've described. Been here my whole life and I cannot wait to leave. If only I could convince my wife. In the meantime, I do what I can by writing to my representatives, donating to pro-2A groups, taking my kids to the range and teaching them about freedom and liberty, introducing people to shooting, etc. But to say it is an uphill battle would be an understatement. For all the reasons you stated, gun owners are a tiny minority of the population, and a large percentage of that tiny minority are afraid to even admit they own guns. It is this way by design, and the design works.
It is exactly as bad/crazy as you've described. Been here my whole life and I cannot wait to leave. If only I could convince my wife. In the meantime, I do what I can by writing to my representatives, donating to pro-2A groups, taking my kids to the range and teaching them about freedom and liberty, introducing people to shooting, etc. But to say it is an uphill battle would be an understatement. For all the reasons you stated, gun owners are a tiny minority of the population, and a large percentage of that tiny minority are afraid to even admit they own guns. It is this way by design, and the design works.
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