No expansion from HP, why?

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davidd

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I finally got to shoot my new kel tec p3at .380 caliber today. I shot a moderately hard packed area of sand and was surprised that when i dug the bullet up, it did not expand at all. My friend, with his 40 cal glock saw moderate expansion from his winchester HP, and huge expansion from his Federal Shok HP. The load i was using was an inexpensive HP from Remington, though i forget the exact name.

what do you think happened and what should i switch to? I know .380 is not strong enough that you want too much expansion, but this doesn't seem right.
 
Most hollowpoints require a fluid or a soft solid target to initiate expansion. JHP expansion in various backstop materials does not indicate their potential for expansion in soft tissue.

Michael Courtney
 
I was 10 feet from the sand and the JHP Rem Express went appx 8 inches deep. Regarding expansion, my friends 40 cal had plenty of expansion, especially the Fed Shok
 
Try a gallon water jug backed up with a box of rags to catch the bullet.

If a bullet is going to expand it will usually do it within a single gallon jug.

The velocity isn't all that good from the short barrel P3AT. Even the hot +P CorBon 90gr JHP, that claims 1950fps on the box, is only doing 864fps from the P3AT.

These are a couple CorBon shot fron the P3AT.
90gr JHP and PowerBall
The PowerBall sucks.

380CorBon.gif
 
I have no experience with .380, but maybe its just a bad batch of ammunition? Also, no reason to scrimp on defensive ammunition. Past ensuring that it feeds reliably, I don't end up shooting my carry ammo much.
 
The load i was using was an inexpensive HP from Remington, though i forget the exact name.
Click to expand...

Yes, that to.
Just because it's got a HP or SP doesn't mean it's guaranteed to expand.

A few years ago I bought some "Law enforcement" JHP 45ACP ammo that looked real good and was almost 900fps.
It wouldn't expand AT ALL. Just like shooting FMJ.

Same exact thing with some 9mm JHP.
 
In any handgun caliber you have to be picky with your ammo selection.

In marginal calibers and shorter barrels, such as all the .32s, the .380 and the .38Spl, you have to be REAL picky and do your homework.

Start here:

http://brassfetcher.com
 
In subcalibers, I prefer fmj loads. European loads like Fiocchi or Sellier and Bellot for their normally higher velocities over their American counterpart.

You are never guaranteed expansion in any circumstances, but you can get reliable pentration by using ball in the subcalibers. I'll take penetration over expansion in all my defensive loads, particularly the subcalibers like thre 380's and 32's.

In the given link by Jim, the 380ACP 80gr. Cor-Bon DPX went 9.4 inches. Various 380's went 10-11.5 inches. None of these will be acceptable to me for SD due to minimal pentration [ and optimally in gelatin at that ].

Brownie
 
Hollow points need sufficient velocity to expand reliably, the old rule of thumb was 1,000 fps at the muzzle was needed for reliable expansion. Since the typical .380 shot from the typical 3-3/4" pistol barrel is less than 1,000 fps expansion is somewhat suspect to begin with. The Kel tec is very small and has a short barrel so the velocity from it will be on the low side. If you want to use expanding ammo you'll have to do some research to find which ones work best in the small Kel Tec.
 
I'm with Brownie. Full Metal Jacket in the Kel Tech or any other short barrel weapon. I carry my Kel Tech ocassionaly, more often a .38 snub- FMJ in both, and I have no illusion that any wonder bullet is going to make them equal to a 45. I want penetration.
 
After digging bullets out of sand for a lot of years, I can tell you that very rairly do any bullets open in sand, even .357 mag 125 JHP's.

I have found that to test ammo, I line up 5 or 6 gallon jugs and shoot into them, this gives me an easy way to compair everything the same.

I have tested LHP's out of my P3AT, and found Gold Dots open OK, not spectacular, Winchester Suprime & PMC Stairfire not at all. I'm going to try Remington Golden Sabers next, when I can find some. None of these are going 1000fps out of the short barrel, my testing had all in the 900 to 950 fps range.

Good luck.
 
After digging bullets out of sand for a lot of years, I can tell you that very rairly do any bullets open in sand, even .357 mag 125 JHP's.

I have found that to test ammo, I line up 5 or 6 gallon jugs and shoot into them, this gives me an easy way to compair everything the same.
Click to expand...


Yep. Same experience.:)
 
The problem is that you fired at sand. Sand isn't a good testing medium for a bullet designed to expand in more fluid mediums. I've done the same thing in the past. Some bullets expand in sand and some don't, but that doesn't mean they will or won't expand in flesh. The slower loads, whether .380, .38 spl, .44 spl or .45 ACP seem to have a hard time expanding in sand.
 
You fired into sand and HP's require a liquid medium to properly expand (remember, animal/human soft tissue is mostly water). Fire thru a jug of water and I'll bet you find the bullets expand.
 
I'm wondering that the fine particle medium you're using might cause the hollow point to clog as soon as it hits, which would prevent expansion. I can see a fluid medium, like tissue, not having that to happen. I've read that in testing with denim-covered targets that sometimes occurs.

Just my 2 cents.

Lou
 
Autopsy reports show very few bullets of any caliber expand much, if at all in humans. Certainly not as reliably as in test mediums used today. Don't count on expansion in test mediums being duplicated on human targets, it's a crap shoot [ literally :D ]

Those that do, do not penetrate as far as I'll require to reliably get to the vitals of the adversary.

Hence the remarks earlier about penetration over expansion requirements for SD needs. If you get expansion, great, it's a plus, but only as long as that expansion does not come at the cost of adequate penetration to destroy vital organs reliably.

Subcalibers like 32's and 380's need all the oooommmph they can get with ball ammo to get deep enough to begin with. Your load expands and slows so that the limited expansion is further diminished, your chances of "stopping" the actions of the aggressor are also reduced accordingly.

Brownie
 
Well, the link shows exactly what I've been talking about.

10-11" of pentration with ball loads which would be minimum [ and ot enough penetration IMO ] for my own requirements for penetration and why I use the european hot ball ammo like S+B and Fiocchi to get a little deeper than that reported in the link.

ALL the HP's did 6-8 inches, again verifying what I've stated in the past posts that expanding bullets don't get as deep as ball to begin with and ball in these subcalibers is not sufficient normally to start with.

Why settle for less penetration in these calibers by using HP's when the ball ammo is not quite adequate to start with?

Brownie
 
Just a reminder

Test shown here are on wetpacks. This is usually 2/3 of what u see in ballistic gelatin in other words a bullet that does 8 inches in wet packs(soaked packs of newspapers) will do 10.66 inches in gelatin or the BG.
 
This is usually 2/3 of what u see in ballistic gelatin in other words a bullet that does 8 inches in wet packs(soaked packs of newspapers) will do 10.66 inches in gelatin or the BG.

Source for this data? I've not heard of this equation.

It's still not enough reliable penetration for me to rely on.

Brownie
 
I have a .38 that I shoot 125grain +P SJHP out of which expand when shot into a jug of water, but they never expand there if I put any amount of clothing in front of the jug. I did that because I wanted to see if it would expand if I shot a BG who was actually wearing clothes :eek:

This round is reported to have a 73% stopping power rating. I don't know how it ever got to that level.

BTW, my revolver has a 4" barrel.
 
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