No Lube?!

[Bluehawk]

Interesting bit of history...reading through my book of the history of the Colt revolver up to 1940 there is an instructional pamphlet put out by Colt around 1860 or so referring to loading pistols, rifles and shotguns. It says, place the ball over the chamber and rotate it below the ram and ram it down into the chamber, If the ball is a good fit then it will hermetically seal it from water, debris, and fire sparks. (not a direct quote but close enough). It then goes on about placing a cap on the nipple(s) and pulling the hammer back...etc.
Nowhere in any of it does it talk about lubrication!!!!!
I didn't scan it because the book is so big and heavy but will if anyone is interested.

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi Bluehawk,



This is what I have heard or read also.


I am surprised this was so!


Lube seems to natural and easy an idea, and, the benifits are so good, I can not imagine it was not widely known and widely used...yet, it does not appear to have been mentioned anywhere, suggesting it was not thought of, not known or used.

So strange to my mind...

 

[Bluehawk]

Oyeboten...there are articles in the book concerning military trials with Colt rifles, carbines, pistols, etc where they fired hundreds of rounds in a day w/o cleaning and yet no lube!
Did they know something we don't??

 

[Smokin_Gun]

Lubrication of muzzleloaders and C&B Revs was up to the descretion of an individual...jus' like is is now.
Most Revs in battle may have been fired up to 6 shot or maybe not...Rev carriers Primary weapon was the Saber. Now as far as I know most Colts and Rems can fire 3-5 cylinders berfore cleaning.
I use lube pills to shoot upto 200 shots per outting without cleaning. That's the reason for lube...

 

[Oyeboten]

Not like they did not have the materials needed...thin absorbant cloth, Bee's Wax, Olive Oil...Hole Punch...

When my dad sent off for a repro Colt Navy in the early 1960s, we knew nothing about using lube for it.

We did the 'Crisco' in the Squeeze-Bottle onto the Cylinder Ends to cut down on those pesky Chain Fires...since we'd heard or read about doing that.

But, that was it.


Yuck...messy...really messy.

Somehow our minds were just not working!

Fast forward all those years till last Fall when I got myself a Cap & Ball Revolver, having been on the forum here already, first thing I did was go about making 'Lube Wafers', and they have worked perfectly.

No mess...no Leading...no Fouling...easy clean up.

I feel sorry for all those poor Pilgrims over the last several Centuries, and especially any with Revolvers, who did not know to do this.

Great for Metallic Cartridge Black Powder too of course.

Heck, so far, seems to work wonderfully with Smokeless even...

 

[Bluehawk]

Most Revs in battle may have been fired up to 6 shot or maybe not...Rev carriers Primary weapon was the Saber.

True but this pamphlet was geared towards the private owner...a commercial pamphlet...not soldier's handbook.
Somewhere else in the book it also spoke several times about penetration tests of the New Army .44 and how it penetrated 9, 1-inch thick, seasoned pine planks, (an inch or so spaced apart), at 30 yards and also spoke about it's accuracy at 80 yards which was supposedly it's aim point for the fixed sights ( as opposed to 75 yards we all talk about)

 

[sonier]

the only benefit of lube I have found is preventing leading, the whole thing of preventing chain fires im not so sure, if a ball is properly fit a spark is not going to melt its way through into the blackpowder behind the ball, plus ive fired a LOT of cap and ball revolvers and I have found after the second shot the lube just runs off all the chambers and is rendered pretty much useless. Now i still do lube my revolvers when I fire them but when im shaving a decent lead ring all the way around the cylinder im not really that worried about chain fires.

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi sonier,


What sort of lube method are you using?

 

[Hellgate]

Bluehawk,
The guns were expected to be fired 6 shots and then retired from action. Keep in mind the guns were a major leap in firepower (six fold) over the single shot pistols they succeeded. If the shooter needed more than 6 shots he either ran, drew his sword, fighting knife, or a second loaded revolver. They were never designed to shoot over & over again like we do in CAS matches. Confederate irregular cavalry each often carried 4-6 revolvers into battle never intending to reload them until back at camp. So we lube the heck out of them to keep the fouling soft and the cylinder turning but that just wasn't an issue for the first "six shooters".

 

[madcratebuilder]

Bluehawk,
The guns were expected to be fired 6 shots and then retired from action. Keep in mind the guns were a major leap in firepower (six fold) over the single shot pistols they succeeded. If the shooter needed more than 6 shots he either ran, drew his sword, fighting knife, or a second loaded revolver. They were never designed to shoot over & over again like we do in CAS matches. Confederate irregular cavalry each often carried 4-6 revolvers into battle never intending to reload them until back at camp. So we lube the heck out of them to keep the fouling soft and the cylinder turning but that just wasn't an issue for the first "six shooters".

A big +1 on that.

 

[Bluehawk]

Hell and Mad...
I certainly understand all that but as I said this pamphlet was not geared toward military...it was a commercial set of instructions. I would think Colt was aware they had shooting contests or folks who liked to "plink" back then and would have said something about lubrication if a shooter were to engage in just shooting one cylinder.
I posted also about military trials earlier and went back and re-read that...it wasn't hundreds of shots fired with the pistols...it was 1,200-1,500 and it said.."was cleaned at the end of each day"!!!!!
It stated they were using military black powder...so I'm curious as to how that differed from what we use today. (I do know from my own experiments with making black powder that some batches left a greasy residue.)

 

[Hellgate]

Bluehawk,
Maybe they weren't using loose powder & ball but combustible cartridges with lubricated bullets. I don't know the answer to your question on powder other than the common comment that the military powders tended to be more coarse when cartridges have been dissected. I.E. 2F sized grains in the pistol rounds, 1F in the rifle rounds. Good question.

 

[steelbird]

I always found this curious myself - the carbine that Colt created that was based on its rotating cylinder might have made for a very effective weapon in the early days of the Civil War, had it been produced in any numbers. But those who used it would get the chain fires from time to time, and with the way one holds a longarm, that produced some nasty results. I don't know if shooters at that time never figured out that sealing the chambers would prevent this, or if the issue was that there wasn't an effective way to package paper cartridges for fast loading in a firefight with a sealant to prevent chain fire. But if it was in greater numbers, I wonder if the carbine would have tipped the balance sooner in the war.

 

[TheRodDoc]

I have tried to help you guys out on this once before but guess no one believes me.

In the 1800's they could have shot as many rounds as they wanted too. They will not stop working from fouling when shooting dry.


I never use any kind of lube in my black powder revolvers. And never have and have shot a bunch. Started shooting them in the late 60's.

They stay clean. I just came in from shooting 50 rounds through my 1863 sheriff revolver.s 36 cal.
Was using Goex fff black powder.

Cylinder still rotates as easily as it did when I started. Barrel stays fairly clean. only a black soot layer on inside. Outside of gun stays very clean. Hardly any residue in action at all. Hands stay clean! I washed the barrel and there is no leading at all. Very easy to clean with out the grease. Rinses right out. pulled the cyl. off the arbor and only the first three grooves have some black soot in them. The rest is clean.

The grease you guys are using are making a mess of your guns. It melts the powder residue And lets it run into all parts of your gun. You will also notice there is a little less smoke when firing with out grease.


The key to it is tight cyl. gap. As I said before keep it at around .003". The 1863 I was just shooting is .002". The cylinder never drags even after firing 50 shots. The front of cyl stays clean and shinny. The blast of dry gasses keeps it blasted clean.



Also a real close clearance on the arbor to cylinder bore.

It's easy to try it if you don't believe me. just leave the grease out.

I forgot to say that you need to clean any and all oil or grease off of the arbor, cyl. bore, and inside of barrel before loading. No lubrication anywhere. And when you push the balls into the dirty cyl. chambers wet them with a very little spit. (don't lick them though) They will slide in better then dry in the dirty chambers.

 

[Millwright]

We currently have a much better concept of "safety" than was the case circa the mid/late
19th century, folks !! Same goes for our military in that era ! IOW, there's no guarantee a tight bullet/chamber fit will preclude a chain fire. BTDTGTTS !!

"Chain fires" can be far more than an annoyance ! What was an acceptable risk for soldiers wasn't for civilians. And certainly not "acceptable" for those whose life styles/endeavors involved resorting to firearms if neccessity demanded it because they generally " tie up" the weapon.

These days prevention is far cheaper/easier than the consequences. Under bullet wads are perhaps best, but "grease capping" of loaded cylinders is as effective, even if it does add a bit of mess. But then, we're shooting BP for the fun of it, eh ? If "mess" was an issue then we'd be shooting cartridge arms..... >MW

 

[mykeal]

Well, my experience with shooting without lube is quite different from yours, TheRodDoc. Shooting Goex fffg in either an open top Colt or the top strap Remington, Rogers & Spencer and Ruger Old Army without either a lubed felt overpowder wad or a grease cap in the chamber mouth consistently results is hard fouling residue that causes binding of the cylinder. The tighter the cylinder/arbor clearance and cylinder end gap the sooner the binding occurs in the shot string. At least, that's my experience over the last 35 years.

The best combination for me, with my guns, is a lightly lubed felt overpowder wad, properly fitting caps and properly fitting projectiles; no binding, no chain fires. And easy cleanup with warm water.

 

[sonier]

I agree that no lube is not necessary, I lube my cap lock to keep leading down but for revolvers there is no need, my revovlers got extrememly dirty using lube. the black oil and grease just drained everywhere it was a complete mess.

 

[Hellgate]

Doc,
I'll give it a try but don't think I have any guns with that tight of a gap. I did forget to bring enough lube or lube wads to a match once and the barrel got all leaded up from 30gr FFFg roundball loads. I started out with lube but ran out quickly. The barrel was pretty crudded up. I'll try your suggestion. I'm willing to see how it works.

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi TheRodDoc,



Very interesting...

My Cap & Ball Revolvers all have very close 'gaps' of only a few thousanths.

I have not shot them without using a Lube Wafer between Ball and Powder to see what that would be like, but, now that you have described things so well, I believe you, and this sheds some good light on the matter.

I just started out with a use of Lube Wafers between Powder and Ball, imagining it would be a nice thing to do for the Revolvers and for them to run well, which they definitely have.

I do not like anything over the Ball, and would not use that method.

 

[TheRodDoc]

I took some pics of the arbor and frame of gun right after shooting 50 rounds through it. I haven't touched it other then pulling off the barrel and cylinder.

Very clean with out any grease or oil of any kind.
Stays clean even around nipples. Just light soot.

This is an older copy sold by Western Arms. 1974 or 5 if I remember right.
Uberti.

View attachment 124575

View attachment 124576

 

[dwave]

Going from my experience, there is no way I can get 50 shots off with my 1858 Pietta replica. Max I have gotten with absolutely no lube is about 36 shots and by that time it is binding up badly. Ended up having to beat the cylinder pin off because it was so bad.

I do use the lube pills myself with great results, and they are far less messy than Crisco.

And to touch in on the chain fire thing: I have been shooting BP for 16 years, and the ONLY time I have a chain fire, it came from the back when a cap fell off. I had loose fitting caps and I didn't have one pinched enough to stay on. Never had one come from the front. Not saying it is impossible to come from the front, but more likely from the back IMO.

 

[mec]

I generally run a spit patch through the bore after every six shots whether I use lube or not. this keeps them shootig accuratly. A guy who used to post on this board said the had fired hundreds of un lubed balls with no cross ignition. I tried the same thing with the same result. I've seen , not a pamplet but a single sheet flyer from Colt that describes the loading process and makes no mention of lube or any sort of wads
except for in injunction not to use them.
Ive found wonderwads not very effective in reducing fowling but the tallow treated thick wads from Eastern Main shooting supply seated between ball and powder do keep the bore free of fouling virtually indefinately. This kind of wad was discussed by Elmer Keith in his "Sixguns" book he mentioned tallow treated wads cut from old hats and said that the had learned the process from an old survivor of the 19th century who allegedly used them in the caplock era. It's hard to tell how widespread the practice might have been. It appears not to have been common and it is possible that only the guy elmer keith talked to and maybe one or two others actually used wads. In the gun culture sometimes if one guy does a thing and another guy writes about it, it takes on a life of its own and after much repetition, it sounds like a universal practice.

 

[Dr.Rob]

I've always used wonder wads. Makes cleaning the bore easier.

 

[Bluehawk]

Of course when shooting with no lube there's nothing stopping you from pulling the barrel and cylinder once in awhile and wiping the arbor off to keep the cylinder from binding so you can keep shooting for the day!

 

[madcratebuilder]

A few of my revolvers run fine without using lube and some well bind rather quickly without using lube. If you are using lube and have a greasy mess then you are using way to much.

The correct method is the one that works for you.