Not Again: .223 vs. 7.62 by 39

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Who knew this thread could wander across a bridge? All ye, therefore, beware what lurks beneath...

Reports that I have read (only second-hand) from Iraq seem to show that the 5.56 (that's .223 to you civilians :rolleyes: ) does quite well at close-quarters type distances. So for this scenario, I would just say pick whichever caliber you feel most comfortable shooting, and will practice with the most, on a platform that fits you best. We live in a great country that affords us all these options.

Only personally, I prefer something heavier, especially for intermediate distances. I also like the fact that I can get 1,000 rnds of 7.62x39 for around $80.
 
One thing forgotten in post #25 is that .30-06 and .308 turn cover, aka car body, into concealment. M2 ball will rip right through a car body and take out whatever's behind it. .30-30, even as a full power loading, isn't as powerful as those, but it'll get the job done in that situation; just that you won't shoot it as fast. If somebody needs less range and more chances to hit, that's why you put the 00 in the 12guage for the knockdown at closer distances, but 12 guage isn't the same as a .30cal for turning cover into concealment.

the gang members are not just standing there waiting for you to shoot them. They are running around talking cover
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Come on... we're talking gang members here... they're standing out there holding whatever they got sideways.

Hey, if ya got dynamite and you can throw it far enough to put 'em under their cars, go for it.
 
I'd like to point out that all this:

Can you choose any worser weapons? You are probably one of those old timers who think full power rounds are the best thing that ever happened. In the "gang shooting at your house" scenario, the fighting will be no more than 30-50 meters. It's COMPLETELY pointless to have a weapon that shoots a very powerfull round like the 30-06 or the 7.62mmNATO(.308 to you civilians). The reason is that the gang members are not just standing there waiting for you to shoot them. They are running around talking cover as you should be. Through out the confusion, when you do spot the enemy, you need to quickly shoot a few rounds rapidly and controllably because that just might be your only chance. It's FAR easier to do a "double tap" with a Mini14 rather than with an M14. I'll say it again, you dont like fragmentating 5.56mm ball rounds? Use soft points or hollow points. they will retain pretty much all of thier weight and devestate the enemy because of the bullets momentum and expansion. Seriously, i hope some of you never get into a gun fight.

Chances are that with the poor knowledge about wound ballistics and poor knowledge you guys have about combat skills, you probably wont make it out alive.
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Came from someone who said in another thread:

I'm 17 years old, and have never fired a gun.
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-Nate
 
Well, I reckon he told US. Of course in my personal experience, with a fleeting target you can use what little time you have to get off the best shot you can, or you can use it trying to control recoil. I've always found that one hit is better than a magazine full of misses.

But I'm only an old infantryman with a couple of years in combat. ;)
 
Having shot a fair number of moving targets with rifles or shotgun slugs (in competition, not combat), to get as many hits as possible, I would prefer something with less sight picture disruption.

The assumption that a lighter-recoiling carbine implies "spray & pray" is a fallacy. That's a training problem.

If for a competent shooter, rifles "A" and "B" take the same time to aim the first shot, but rifle B takes 2x the time to recover vs A, in the same window of target opportunity, he will be able to get approx 2x the hits with rifle A vs rifle B. This would normally give an advantage to the intermediate cartridge carbine over the full power battle rifle.

With regard to terminal ballistics, 7.62x39 vs. 5.56 has been rehashed over and over again. Go read the Ammo-Oracle.com if you need a refresher. "Good" 5.56 loads have clearly superior terminal effects to 7.62x39.

-z
 
Having shot a fair number of moving targets with rifles or shotgun slugs (in competition, not combat), to get as many hits as possible, I would prefer something with less sight picture disruption.
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It's six of one and a half-dozen of the other. Penetration in combat is a major issue (people WILL hide behind thing when the shooting starts). Also, the liklihood of getting more than one hit, regardless of how little your weapon recoils is pretty low. Combat shots are VERY fleeting shots. Slow infantryment don't last long.
 
The original comparison was Mini-14 or AK. In that situation, the dependability of the action of an AK has proved itself time and time again in a wide range of situations in a wide range of conditions.

Meanwhile, we've seen the intro of AR, M1 and many more. In this spirit, may I intorduce the KPV 14.5 that I'm sitting on with the ZPU4 configuration loaded with APs. :neener:

For those unfamiliar, this is a heavy machine gun that fires a 14.5mmx114 Soviet round. It came in three models: ZPU1, ZPU2 and ZPU4. That is, 1 bbl, 2 bbl or 4bbl configuration. Cycle rate of 600rpm and a range of 8km. Granted, at 108.2 pounds, it's a pain to shoulder, but mounted on an H2 or APV, who cares? :p

Berek
 
but you very rarely, if ever, hear about Failure to Neutralize issues with an AK or SKS.
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Im a big fan of the AK but just for the sake of fairness lets remember that just about every one of the men in Somalia (blackhawk down) got hit at least once by an AK and managed to keep going. There are ample failure to stop issues with all rifles. Most every American soldier that gets wounded rather than killed is a failure to stop for an AK, and thats a LOT. Shot placement matters a lot with any weapon. The AR and AK can both kill people all day long, they can also give peopel superficial wounds all day long, it just depends on who is behind the trigger.
 
The original comparison was Mini-14 or AK ...Meanwhile, we've seen the intro of AR, M1 and many more...
Samuel Jackson's quote aside...I would strongly consider a Rock River AR series...God I drool just thinking about that DEA carbine...Oh yeah... :evil:
 
The AT-4, by the way, is a disposable recoilless gun, not a rocket.
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The at4 is a rocket launcher. The main tube is NOT disposible. But the tube in which the rocket is all ready packed in as a munition is disposible.

Lets say your in a civil war and you have a squad. Wouldn't it be best to have 1 or 2 squad mates armed with a M82 50 rifle? It makes good sense. Should the need arise, you can shoot somebody that's hiding behind a thick barrier and take them out with ease. It also adds phsycological impact on whoever is hiding behind a formidable concrete wall.
 
The at4 is a rocket launcher. The main tube is NOT disposible. But the tube in which the rocket is all ready packed in as a munition is disposible.
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From the Military Analysis Network:

"The M136 AT4 is the Army's primary light anti-tank weapon. The M136 AT4 is a recoilless rifle used primarily by Infantry Forces for engagement and defeat of light armor. The recoilless rifle design permits accurate delivery of an 84mm High Explosive Anti-Armor warhead, with negligible recoil."

Lets say your in a civil war and you have a squad. Wouldn't it be best to have 1 or 2 squad mates armed with a M82 50 rifle? It makes good sense. Should the need arise, you can shoot somebody that's hiding behind a thick barrier and take them out with ease. It also adds phsycological impact on whoever is hiding behind a formidable concrete wall.
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A modern squad is 9 men -- at full strength. The average infantryman carries about 95 lbs fully equipped. How will you add 2 M82s to that load?
 
A modern squad is 9 men -- at full strength. The average infantryman carries about 95 lbs fully equipped. How will you add 2 M82s to that load?
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Simple, you just download that particular patch for Counter Strike. Then you can, like, totally pwn all over the stupid |\|003|4$. LOL!!!!!!!11111ONE.

:rolleyes:
 
How did we get to AT-4's and Barrett .50's? I don't know about you guys, but I don't have either of them at my disposal at this point in time. :rolleyes:

Between the Mini-14 and an AK, I would take the AK.
If you want accuracy, try a VEPR in .223. The one I owned did 1.5 inch 10 shot groups at 100 yards, fired prone off of sandbags. I did it several times just recreationally shooting at targets I had made by sticking a shoot-N-see dot in the middle of a paper plate and slinging rounds at it. The barrel was fairly warm when I did this. It was poorly balanced though, which is why I sold it. But no one is going to tell me that there is no such thing as an accurate AK.
I also owned an SAR-1 that was utterly reliable and about as accurate at 100 yards as a kid with a slingshot. But it did work every time.
Right now I would go with my Bulgarian/US (Arsenal USA) AK. It is minute of clay pigeon accurate and on a good day I can clean them off the backstop at 100 yards with only a handful of misses shooting offhand. Although it doesn't seem as accurate as the one M-16 I was issued (I only have that to work with because I have never shot an AR), it is well within my capabilities. Even with my Finn M-39 I can't really do better offhand than clay pigeons at 100 yards.
The only experience I have with the mini-14 was about two magazines worth of ammo. It was Federal 55gr IIRC and the gun was both unreliable and innaccurate. Not a good combination.
Because of that, out of the choices in the thread, I would go with my Bulgarian AK.

Bottom line is that I have only ever seen one AK broken and I have only heard rumors from friends of friends of people who post on the AK forum about them failing. Can't say the same for the mini-14 (although good mags will supposedly make a difference.)

For my money, any way you look at it the AK can deliver what I need it to do.

Gun God - No offense, but you are according to your own admission 17 and have never fired a gun, yet you are trying to debate with people who have been shooting since before I was born (I am 24 and have been shooting since I was 4). When I find myself in the company of older and more experienced shooters (and you can always tell who they are when you meet them), I shut my yap and listen to what they have to say. Read what the "old timers" here have to say then go get some trigger time.
Experience really is the best teacher.
No offense to you old guys either.
 
Quote:
I'm 17 years old, and have never fired a gun.
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WOW, I just got owned pretty badly. Anyway, as long as I follow forum rules, I'm alright.
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Gun God - No offense, but you are according to your own admission 17 and have never fired a gun, yet you are trying to debate with people who have been shooting since before I was born (I am 24 and have been shooting since I was 4). When I find myself in the company of older and more experienced shooters (and you can always tell who they are when you meet them), I shut my yap and listen to what they have to say. Read what the "old timers" here have to say then go get some trigger time.
Experience really is the best teacher.
No offense to you old guys either.
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Okay, here's my $.02- At first, I thought we might have been dealing with Gunkid, John22, or whatever handle that assault-wheelbarrow-driving troll is going by this week again, until I saw the post in that other thread. The fact that we're dealing with an inexperienced 17 year old kid and not a troll shed's a different light on it.

Now, to "Gun God", no offense here either, but I would suggest a change of screen names, as the current one is indicative of a tinhorn or other wannabe, as well as it might be considered sacriligious by some. And you would be better off to ask questions than to spew "knowledge". BTW, I'm 30 and I've been shooting since I was 8, but much more regularly since I was 20. When I read something in a book, I say "from what I read" and cite it if possible, and if I did something I say "this was my results", but if somebody else read something or experienced it and got a different result, I'm open to discuss it and see what made the difference. And when you discuss military doctrine as it applies to small arms, you have to keep it in context. Not all military small arms doctrine is completely sound and can be outdone by another element of doctrine, or by a group who don't fight according to any currently accepted doctrine. Just like the comment about intermediate powered cartridges being better than full power- with a full power cartridge in a rifle in the right hands, an enemy armed with intermediate power arms can be engaged from outside their effective range, and outshot before they can get close enough to be effective with their intermediate powered arms. I aquired this viewpoint from some Vietnam vets I talk with and it beats getting shot to peices. Those same Vietnam vets mostly prefer the M-14 or Garand either one over an AR series rifle from experience with those while being up against an enemy armed with AKs. A bunch of those guys seem to prefer shotguns for close in, too. See my point?

Just read, ask questions, learn all you can about applying what you know and what you are yet to learn. And get you some trigger time with as wide a variety of rifles as you can in a variety of calibers- not just military stuff, but hunting rifles too. It's all good for something.
 
12 guage isn't the same as a .30cal for turning cover into concealment.
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It is if you're shooting slugs...check this out...

http://www.theboxotruth.com/6/

6-13.jpg


That's a piece of "bullet-resistant glass" (Polycast acrylic, 1 ¼ inches thick). It stopped 7.62x51 FMJ, but the 12-gauge slug, ah, penetrated. :what:

Browse that site a bit and you'll see that 12-gauge slugs are quite remarkable penetrators. I'm not a shotgun guy myself, but I wouldn't want somebody shooting at me with one...
 
No 7.62x39 guns in my house, so I'll have to stick with .223 or .30-06.

For fun, check out this site:
http://www.smashandgrab.com/
Bullet resistant window film!

So when I'm a millionare and can afford to build a custom mansion, I'll have those window and 7" of sand surrounding all my walls. :neener:
 
benEzra, how about re-reading my post, which I've copied to this one. I said 00, meaning BUCKSHOT. I've seen 20guage slugs bore right through pine trees- probably 6-8" thick- and keep right on going. Stands to reason 12guage slugs will be tougher.

One thing forgotten in post #25 is that .30-06 and .308 turn cover, aka car body, into concealment. M2 ball will rip right through a car body and take out whatever's behind it. .30-30, even as a full power loading, isn't as powerful as those, but it'll get the job done in that situation; just that you won't shoot it as fast. If somebody needs less range and more chances to hit, that's why you put the 00 in the 12guage for the knockdown at closer distances, but 12 guage isn't the same as a .30cal for turning cover into concealment.
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Hey guys, I'm new here. I like what I see so far. :cool:

I just wanted to say that "Gun God" sure gets around. He can change his name all he wants, but you can identify his posts anywhere. :rolleyes:

Oh, and give me a heavy (say 154gr) soft point in 7.62x39 over a .223 anyday. :D
 
If you made me choose. I would go with the AK. But I would prefer the .223 round. So my choice would be an AK in .223

Personally though, I don't think in matters that much. I would be comfortable enough with either weapon.
 
No .223's in the house, so I'll go with the AK.

That said, it sure would be a pleasure to go with an even less recoiling platform and make those 200+ meters shots easier. But such a shot is utterly rarely presented in these parts, and the concealment of the ever-present taiga-type forest here turns into cover if .223 is used. OTOH, it takes a sturdy twig to turn a bullet from a 7,62x39 off its intended course.

In-house, anything intermediate and hi-cap that functions reliably will do fine. So it's back to the beginning of this post...
 
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