Number of rounds used in defense going up?

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The likely ability to drive off an
attack by three or four thugs with
a limited capacity firearm is high.
But if the thugs are disciplined
and brave, losing one member
will not deter them and they will
overwhelm someone armed even
with a hi cap auto.

Now, in gun competitions, you
face two, pop them, move to the
next "room" and pop three more;
then onto the next room while
reloading and pop three more
baddies. And so on.

Again I suggest watching the
Wilson Combat video dealing
with the Bakersfield PD drill.

Just for the record, I'm a revolver
guy but I also dearly love my
Beretta Centurions.
 
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My primary carry gun has been 15+ rounds for several years (since I could dress as I choose, no work):
When I lived on 20 rural acres in KY.
In a beachside subdivision now.
Statistics? Don't need them.
Anticipated threat? I'm not carrying less because I'm in a "good area"
And I've never "needed" a single bullet in 30+ years of carry, which also doesn't factor on what I carry.

My philosophy and what I futilely encourage other to do is try to carry a handgun you would prefer to defend yourself with anywhere, everywhere.
That prior statement needs elaboration.
For example: If one is content to carry a pocket 32 for a "quick trip to the store" then they should be content to bet their life on that 32 anywhere, Memphis, Atlanta.
Threats are not harder or easier to incapacitate based on location. Threats are not immobile, nor are they completely nocturnal.

Is there anywhere where I think it would be advantageous for me to defend myself with a 5-6 shot revolver rather than a Glock 22? Nope.
"But, CDW4ME, statistics say" ... I don't need statistics. A Glock 22 is preferred over a revolver, anywhere.
If I have more bullets than I need that is okay; running out of bullets and/or being at slide lock before threat(s) are incapacitated would not be okay.
 
The problem as I see it is that most “shootings” are lumped together for these discussions. Are we talking home defense, street or public altercations or mass shootings? They are all different. It has always been my contention that anything beyond contact distance in public for a Private Citizen with a CCW is rare occurrence. A car jacking, mugging and robbery are pull, point and shoot situations. Just enough to make a retreat. How many rounds does one need for that is personal, I carry 5 or 6 and a reload on my person and another reload in my truck.
For the home, more should be considered.
- A home invasion is generally conducted by multiple attackers, gangs and groups. I like the idea of multiple easy accessed weapons. Even armed in your own home a retreat may be prudent wether you are legally required or not, it’s about survival, no one scenario exists. A home on the flip side does not always allow for a flowing retreat so you can be trapped and cornered by your own walls. That is a situation for power and capacity in a firearm that is not overly loud, suffer from huge blast or anything that might endanger your ability to stay in the fight.
- A Mass Shooting is not something one can easily prepare for. I don’t like the idea of trying to engage from any real distance, we are liable for every shot. But as we have seen it may be necessary. Here is the thing though! Any handgun is at a major disadvantage to a rifle wielding attacker! It really is a suicide mission even with equal firepower and proper body armor. The level of skill it takes to face something like this effectively is beyond 98% of those carrying a handgun for personal defense. I would rather have a gun on me but even as a trained armed retired professional I would do what I could but would not have a high expectation of it being effective regardless of my handguns capacity.
- The one thing that I consider at the utmost importance and it’s on the top of my list is the element of surprise. Catching an attacker off guard and landing the first effective blow is so important. The reason you are targeted unless it’s a suicidal attacker is that they took you for an easy mark. Once an exchange of gunfire starts it becomes contagious. Guns are emptied in seconds. It’s easy to miss no matter the training. Training helps and is important but nobody knows how they will perform when the time comes ultimately unless they have already been there.
- Carry what you like, what your shoot well and are comfortable with. Situational awareness, trusting instinct and the ability to retreat if possible is how survival is done. If a handgun is needed it’s already a loss, just trying to ensure mine and my loved ones survival through that failure in security.
 
I would say that the Bakersfield drill would be a good basic start. And its a "start", its not a goal to attain and you get a diploma, and you're done. This sort of thing is about continuing education, and you have to constantly work at moving ahead, trying to improve, and just keeping up.

The question for everyone is, are you capable of actually doing that drill with what you carry? Its pretty much a basic drill with some time induced stress.

How about if you amp things up just a little bit, and add a couple more targets and some movement while youre shooting?

The whole point of doing things like the drill above, is to learn where you really are in the scheme of things, where youre weak and need improvement, and to learn how your gear is going to work and if it needs improvement.

That drill is pretty simple and will work with most things, to a point, but once you increase the difficulty, just a little bit, things like 5 shot J frames, LCP's, etc, quickly become a real challenge and detriment. It can be hard enough with a full sized gun.
 
Old Dog said:
I'm not seeing this. Seems the numbers of rounds fired in shootings aren't going up -- but the number of shootings and the national media coverage of shootings has gone way, way up.
Click to expand...

Yes, 100% correct. You really can't use video/post counts, news articles or anything of that nature to make an assessment because it is very skewed for political or commercial reasons. Beyond that we're in the wrong forum to discuss further.

All great points on this thread.
 
In regards to spray and pray, I was always taught that I'm responsible for every round that leaves the barrel of my gun. Spray and pray is not an option as it could too easily lead to bystanders being shot. In regards to what's changed, take this as a sample size of one. I was born and raised in the Chicago area and spent most of my time in Chicago itself. When I was younger it was a tough town but as long as you stayed out of the South and West sides not necessarily dangerous. It's the difference between a fist fight and a gun fight. It's out of control now and will most likely get worse once the no bail law goes into effect. Attacks by multiple assailants is not uncommon, making IMO a gun with greater capacity a better choice.
 
TomJ said:
In reg
It's out of control now and will most likely get worse once the no bail law goes into effect. Attacks by multiple assailants is not uncommon, making IMO a gun with greater capacity a better choice.
Click to expand...

Philly has shown it gets worse. With DA Larry Krasners policies murders up, car jackings up, all crime up.....
 
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That fact that on average the CCW community is carry more ammo due to more people carrying higher capacity double stack pistols and the acceptance of carrying one or more reloads compared to previous decades/generations almost dictates that that the average used per encounter is going to go up. How much is probably hard to measure giving our current data sources.
 
I'm really at a disadvantage here. The last murder where I live was in 2017. The one before that was around the year 2000.

The roving gangs of killers terrorizing the rest of the countryside haven't made it here yet.

I can't tell for sure if I'm being told that I need to carry a semiautomatic rifle everywhere, or just that revolvers are bad. :)
 
This is all an extrapolating topic. Even before Floyd, back even in the early days of a lot of boards, there has always been a cult like following with one group pushing for there to be just one type and size of gun, one caliber, and just one brand, and it always had to be a G19. It was always the same arguments even when back then the risk assessments were very, very, very, low.

This is no different than before, minus the model anymore with the focus changing to round counts in them magazines. People want to rehash and keep talking the same crap over and over, some doing it because they really, REALLY, love ad nauseam. Others because they like to watch their local worlds burn on the boards for entertainment values.

You would be better served by running your gun that carries well and shoots the best in YOUR hands and not the gun our larpers want you have. Use what you've chosen in classes and maintaining what you were taught, do matches that fits your type of carry gun, learn, adapt, etc., rather then extrapolating and not doing a dang thing in person about it.
 
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Tallball said:
I'm really at a disadvantage here. The last murder where I live was in 2017. The one before that was around the year 2000.

The roving gangs of killers terrorizing the rest of the countryside haven't made it here yet.

I can't tell for sure if I'm being told that I need to carry a semiautomatic rifle everywhere, or just that revolvers are bad. :)
Click to expand...
^^ this man understands.
 
Tallball said:
I'm really at a disadvantage here. The last murder where I live was in 2017. The one before that was around the year 2000.

The roving gangs of killers terrorizing the rest of the countryside haven't made it here yet.

I can't tell for sure if I'm being told that I need to carry a semiautomatic rifle everywhere, or just that revolvers are bad. :)
Click to expand...
What are you talking about? Who is telling whom what?
 
The_Quartermaster said:
Even before Floyd, back even in the early days of a lot of boards, there has always been a cult like following with one group pushing for there to be just one type and size of gun, one caliber, and just one brand,
Click to expand...
I must have missed that completely.
The_Quartermaster said:
You would be better served by running your gun that carries well and shoots the best in YOUR hands and not the gun our larpers want you have, in classes and maintaining what you were taught, do matches that fits your type of carry gun, learn, adapt, etc., then extrapolating and not doing a dang thing in person about it.
Click to expand...
Better served than what?
 
Kleanbore said:
I must have missed that completely.
Click to expand...
It was an almost weekly occurrence on on arfcom, militaryphotos, M4C...only the big three at the time, MP is gone gone-gone but the other two are still around rehashing the same arguments over and over and over, and never realizing that it's just a safe space echo chamber by now.
Kleanbore said:
Better served than what?
Click to expand...
Running our keyboards instead and using fallacy based arguments instead of finding out in person?? How will you know that you can defend yourself, hardware alone won't automatically save you if there's no training.

Seriously, you really had to have this explained you?
 
UncleEd said:
I believe that the hi-cap auto has
instilled in some, not all, shooters
the idea that "now I can afford to miss."
Click to expand...

Or, in the case of some smaller caliber users, they think that no attacker can withstand being hit by all of the mag's capacity of whatever puny caliber they are shooting. They already have it in their mind that they are stopping the attacker with a mag dump and none of the rounds will miss.
 
Double Naught Spy said:
Or, in the case of some smaller caliber users, they think that no attacker can withstand being hit by all of the mag's capacity of whatever puny caliber they are shooting. They already have it in their mind that they are stopping the attacker with a mag dump and none of the rounds will miss.
Click to expand...
Tit for tat ignorance from both sides.

Y'all need to learn how to get along and stop trying to eat each other over semantics.
 
So the OP has asked if it seemed like the numbers of rounds fired in shootings, law enforcement and otherwise, had gone up considerably (by semiauto shooters using the "bullet-hose" or "spray and pray" tactics.

I responded that I didn't believe so, it's simply that the numbers of shooting incidents nationwide have skyrocketed while the almost instantaneous national media coverage makes these shooting incidents look even more commonplace and more epic than they really are.

OP also asked if anyone had transitioned to a semi-auto from a revolver after watching YouTube videos of some of these violent events. No one really responded to that.

Thread has come close to devolving to the tired old tropes that high-cap pistols or bigger caliber handguns are now required because of the perceived threat level in our country these days.

Some here acknowledge, quite properly, that obtaining training is more important than the hardware one carries.

Every thread on this topic eventually has a post critical of police officers' "hit rates" when firearms are deployed.

All I will say is that those who bemoan the poor marksmanship (or who freak out about the extremely "high" numbers of rounds fired) by our law enforcers likely have never been on a two-way range.

I'd add that for self-defense by citizens, after a shooting, that observing Rule 4 seems like it should have been more of a consideration than how many rounds one had in his/her magazine.

Caliber, magazine capacity -- and even training level on either side -- don't always factor into the outcome.

But it's fun to argue about, anyway. And sometimes there is no correct answer, only options.
 
Stevel said:
While I own auto's I am a revolver guy at heart and usually carry one.

Has viewing these types of incidents caused anyone to switch from revolver to auto?
Click to expand...

Short answer: I have not “switched” from revolving pistols to auto-loading pistols.

Longer answer, in the form of somewhat-scattered thoughts:

I do not believe that fast split times have much street relevance.

Every round that I fire is a truly, deathly-serious responsibility.

I like both auto pistols and revolving pistols. I usually carry revolvers, as “primary” weapons. Revolvers are more ambidextrous, in nature, which is a factor in their favor, especially with one of my hands not aging very well. Most autos perform at their best with a strong, healthy hand/wrist/arm to provide support for the frame, to ensure proper cycling, and, a strong, healthy support hand, to run the slide.

Of course, a fully-loaded Glock G17 can stay in the fight, for quite a while, before a reload becomes necessary.

Full-sized duty pistols seem less-susceptible to malfunctions induced by being weakly held.

I am, however, more consistently accurate, especially at distance, with some specific revolvers, than with any other handgun. I can be as accurate, with a 1911, as with a good revolver, but my revolver accuracy is more consistent. I do not shoot Glocks as well as I shoot 1911 pistols, or revolvers.

While I am driving, my right hip is more accessible than my left hip. It makes sense to keep carrying on my right hip, even though my right hand is no longer the most stable platform for auto-loader cycling. This was a significant reason that I chose to carry on my right side, almost forty years ago, even though I write left-handed, and do many other things lefty. The weapon that my gimpier right hand can best hold, firmly, is a revolver with rather modestly-sized grips: SP101, Speed Six, S&W K-/L-Frame. A GP100 is a bit larger, but still OK.

Rather than pay attention to the you-tubers, I pay attention to local events. My area tends to be a recent hot-bed of “Glock switch” activity, and there has been an apparently significant increase in road rage incidents. I am not seeing, however, that local civilian defenders need to score an inordinate number of hits, on bad guys.

A Glock G17 can be a very nice additional gun, ;) when I feel a specific need to up-gun, due to route, destination, or other factors, but cannot bring a long gun.

Carry two guns? Yes. All tactical considerations aside, my back muscles appreciate a balanced load. ;)
 
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There is another way to up-gun, without switching to an auto: Carry a larger revolver. ;)

A larger revolver may have more chambers in the cylinder, depending upon where we start.

A small-frame DA revolver has less “work space” when the cylinder is swung open, compared to a medium or larger DA revolver. Speed-loading the medium/large weapon can be more smooth/efficient, and smooth efficiently leads to speed, and more resistance to fumbly-fingery stress.

In my case, I tend to carry TWO six-shot K-Frame revolvers, much of the time, lately, and am quicker to up-gun to longer, bigger sixguns, such as a GP100. In less-troubled times, it might have been one or two five-shot SP101 revolvers.
 
I shoot better with autos than revolvers, probably due to almost all of my training and experience has been with some type of auto. This is 1 reason, besides the obvious advantages of more ammunition in almost all cases and a slimmer package to carry. Whatever data is being used to extract percentages of whatever traits of whatever group of gunfights, in theory 50% of the samples score above the averages and 50% score below. I personally like to tip the scale of any potential fight I may find myself in to my favor- starting with using a gun I can shoot well (fast and accurately), followed by chances to get the fight finished in my favor- which translates into the number of rounds in the gun. What matters most isn't what happens in "most" gunfights, or the "average" gunfight- all that matters is what is happening in YOUR current gunfight, if you are unfortunate enough to find yourself in one.
 
This and other threads can go on
for what seems like forever.

Basically, one group stresses the
probabilities in thugs' attacks.
This puts probable realistic
limits on what will go down.
These probable limits are the
result of what has actually
happened during crimes.

The other group in these
discussions stresses all
possibilities that can occur.
And these possibilities are
limitless in scope and
imagination. This is the world
of Martin Riggs and John
McClane.
 
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