I posted another thread about the do's and don'ts of FTF gun transactions, which I had never done before. I typed up a bill of sale with serial#, DL# an a signature, no problem there. Well I get a few calls, and decided to meet one guy close to my home. The guy meets me and turns out... it's a second cousin, who I have not had any contact with for a few years, small world huh? Well my dilemma is this guy has had some serious drug problems his whole life. Let me make this VERY clear...NEVER has he been in trouble with the law, just his own personal demons. I really feel sorry for the guy, he lives in a old run down rent house, which he said the reason he is buying another gun is that his shotgun got stolen the other night. The man has a right to defend himself right? Plus the guy is a good person, always courteous to people, he just has a serious personal problem. Talking to my mom I hear he has been in rehab and is straitening his life up, but being 45 the damage is done. Would you do this deal?
Odd FTF transaction, and ethical question.
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KBintheSLC
Member
Morally, I have no issue with it for reasons in post #2... I don't believe that everyone that uses a "controlled substance" is automatically a dangerous criminal. However, it does pose a legal liability to you as it is against the law for a drug addict to buy a gun (see the ATF form at a gunshop). Therefore it would in turn be illegal for you to sell one to him knowing his situation. You could always plea ignorance if it ever came back to bite you... but that is sort of out the window too since you just posted this on a public forum.
I would likely abstain from selling him the gun. If he has no criminal record, he can easily go buy one from a dealer. If you decide to sell him the gun, delete your original post and do not post any more comments on this matter.
I would likely abstain from selling him the gun. If he has no criminal record, he can easily go buy one from a dealer. If you decide to sell him the gun, delete your original post and do not post any more comments on this matter.
Geneseo1911
Member
Anyone who is an unlawful user of or is addicted to a controlled substance is a prohibited person under GCA '68. If you know this guy is/was a user, I would not sell it to him unless he could somehow prove to my satisfaction that he is clean & I could trust him 100%. Not Likely.
If you do the deal and he were to relapse & misuse the weapon, I would think you would be open to liability if a lawyer could convince a jury that you knew about the drug problem. His right to self defense is not worth risking everything you have worked for in a lawsuit happy culture.
If you do the deal and he were to relapse & misuse the weapon, I would think you would be open to liability if a lawyer could convince a jury that you knew about the drug problem. His right to self defense is not worth risking everything you have worked for in a lawsuit happy culture.
Packman
Member
Depends. Did you buy it from a dealer?
Six
Member
If I were concerned about a gun being traced back to me, I wouldn't make the sale.
KBintheSLC
Member
Its always possible. It sounds to me like you are worried about it being traced back to you... so I think you have your answer. Trust your gut instinct.
SSN Vet
Member
that you know of
check the box yes and it's a No Sale....
If you purchases it via. a dealer.... yes
My advise.... call the State Police, explain the situation (without naming names) and ask them if it's legal for you to sell the gun to him. The attorney general's office and the state police are the only parties I trust to give me an authoritative read on my states gun control laws. I've called the state police several times with questions about my states gun laws. They have always been very courteous and professional. AND the duty officer has never answered my question, but has directed me to an officer who's job it is to be the "gun law expert".
If they say yes... make up your mind whether or not you want to do it and you're done.
If they say no... explain to your cousin that it's not legal for you to do so and he should be happy to not get you into any potential trouble.
CoRoMo
Member
Yes. The form says "Are you an unlawful user of...", not Were you.
Every 'what if' that can be thought up would also apply to any total stranger that would want to do a FTF.
Can you ever trust ANYONE 100%? Seriously? Not with all the 'what if's that have been suggested.
As far as you know, he's not a prohibited person, and that's all the reason you need. You can of course cower in fear under your bed that he'll relapse, and that the misuse of his gun will be pinned on you, but it appears from your post that he'd likely hock the gun rather than misuse it.
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chris in va
Member
He's a known drug abuser, so definitely a NO on that transaction.
The operative word being 'has', not 'had'.
It's like saying, he's never been in trouble with the law, but has broken into many houses...just never caught. If your cousin was caught with the drugs, he'd be a criminal, correct?
And another red flag, how did his shotgun get stolen?
The operative word being 'has', not 'had'.
It's like saying, he's never been in trouble with the law, but has broken into many houses...just never caught. If your cousin was caught with the drugs, he'd be a criminal, correct?
And another red flag, how did his shotgun get stolen?
Not specific to the question, but in general LEOs are not the people to answer complex questions on the law. They are not attorneys, and receive only a rather brief course in general law.
IMHO, which is also worthless, if you are concerned about selling a gun lest it be traced back to you, it is better not to sell it except to/through a dealer. The only way it would be traced is if were to be involved in a crime.
I think your gut is telling you not to make the deal - go with your gut.
Jim
IMHO, which is also worthless, if you are concerned about selling a gun lest it be traced back to you, it is better not to sell it except to/through a dealer. The only way it would be traced is if were to be involved in a crime.
I think your gut is telling you not to make the deal - go with your gut.
Jim
rocky branch
Member
Would not do it.
You never know when this mighy come home.
You mentioned bill of sale, etc.
I have known similar people and can live with them.
Never get into a situation where any connection exists-debts, sales of firearms, whatever.
Eventually he may get into a jam and they start squeezing.
You are legally in a bad position knowing his situation.
It ain't worth it. Don't try to rationalise it.
You never know when this mighy come home.
You mentioned bill of sale, etc.
I have known similar people and can live with them.
Never get into a situation where any connection exists-debts, sales of firearms, whatever.
Eventually he may get into a jam and they start squeezing.
You are legally in a bad position knowing his situation.
It ain't worth it. Don't try to rationalise it.
It seems he'd have to answer this question as yes...
Legally, you can only sell to someone FTF if they are legally allowed to buy a gun. Since he would be disqualified by a "yes" answer to that question, I wouldn't sell it to him.
As usual whenever I see a "ethical question" on the internet, it's always painfully obvious what the correct answer is, but they're just looking for gray area to skate on.
Legally, you can only sell to someone FTF if they are legally allowed to buy a gun. Since he would be disqualified by a "yes" answer to that question, I wouldn't sell it to him.
As usual whenever I see a "ethical question" on the internet, it's always painfully obvious what the correct answer is, but they're just looking for gray area to skate on.
mstirton
Member
As others stated, he IS a felon and just hasn't gotten caught yet. I told a friend of mine I wouldn't sell him a gun because he smokes weed. I don't have a problem with it and think it should be legal. Fact is, if he got caught with it, the possession of a firearm would make things worse for him (not sure the specifics of marijuana vs narcotic but I'll stick with drugs+gun=bad in eyes of the law). I am 99.99% sure that he would never commit a violent crime (and that .01% is just because you never say never). He wasn't seriously looking for one but the subject arose and I let him know. He understood completely and we both agreed there is a big difference between what is right (they deserve to be able to arm themselves) and what the law in the US is now (illegal for them to have a gun). Let your cousin try to buy one from a dealer and get a background check.
General Geoff
Member
Ethically, there is no question. I'd sell it to him in a heartbeat if ethics were all that mattered.
Legally is another question, as pointed out by others, if you know he is a current user of unlawful controlled substances, you can't sell it to him without knowingly breaking the law. This has nothing to do with whether selling to him is the morally right thing to do; it just means the law may come after you if this gun is used by your second cousin in a less than honorable manner.
edit;
Every adult in the United States is a felon from one act or another; most have not been prosecuted and/or caught. I do not hold victimless felonious acts against someone.
Legally is another question, as pointed out by others, if you know he is a current user of unlawful controlled substances, you can't sell it to him without knowingly breaking the law. This has nothing to do with whether selling to him is the morally right thing to do; it just means the law may come after you if this gun is used by your second cousin in a less than honorable manner.
edit;
Every adult in the United States is a felon from one act or another; most have not been prosecuted and/or caught. I do not hold victimless felonious acts against someone.
HKUSP45C
Member
One thing I never saw you mention is whether or not to the best of your knowledge he is currently a drug user. You said he's had problems his whole life but, does he currentlyhave a drug use problem?
There are many people on this very board who once used illegal drugs and are now productive members of the GUN OWNING populace.
If he's not a prohibited person there is no reason to deny him the sale.
There are many people on this very board who once used illegal drugs and are now productive members of the GUN OWNING populace.
If he's not a prohibited person there is no reason to deny him the sale.
Tim the student
Member
Do you know he is a drug use, or just that he has been?
If you otherwise feel morally fine with selling him the gun, could you have him handwrite on the bill of sale that he is allowed to possess it, and is not a drug user?
If you otherwise feel morally fine with selling him the gun, could you have him handwrite on the bill of sale that he is allowed to possess it, and is not a drug user?
Tim has the right intention, but Tim's suggestion most likely result in helping the OP to be prosecuted (if that were to happen).
Lots of guns around for sale, especially some very inexpensive guns at the pawn shop. That sounds like a good plan for the OP and his friend.
Lots of guns around for sale, especially some very inexpensive guns at the pawn shop. That sounds like a good plan for the OP and his friend.
"They deserve to be able to arm themselves."
If that applies to one group of persons prohibited from owning guns, why not others, like murderers, rapists, etc. Surely they are more likely to need guns than a druggie, since they will be arming themselves against the police and honest citizens.
(I know that criminals, and druggies, will be able to get guns no matter what the law says but it can't hurt to make it a little bit difficult.)
Jim
If that applies to one group of persons prohibited from owning guns, why not others, like murderers, rapists, etc. Surely they are more likely to need guns than a druggie, since they will be arming themselves against the police and honest citizens.
(I know that criminals, and druggies, will be able to get guns no matter what the law says but it can't hurt to make it a little bit difficult.)
Jim
HKUSP45C
Member
Fremmer said:
Prosecuted for what? I didn't see anything in Tim's post suggesting the OP break the law. It isn't as if people who used to do drugs and now don't are prohibited from owning guns.
Jim Keenan said:
Ummm .... people who don't do drugs aren't prohibited persons. I'm intentionally ignoring the rest of your emotional remarks.
General Geoff
Member
Anyone not a fugitive from justice or currently serving a sentence should be able to own guns legally. Using a firearm against someone who has done you no harm and does not pose an immediate threat to you or others around you, is already against the law.
Tim the student
Member
That's what I was thinking - if he has been in rehab, and is reportedly turning his life around, and he says he doesn't use drugs, and you don't have any reason to other than his past, then I don't see how that would help the OP get prosecuted.
I will freely admit that I don't know though, and if it were me, I would talk to the people that may potientially enforce these laws...
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