Oh Lord is this a doozy of an article

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I personally am very alarmed by a person who doesnt know how to handle and firearm, let alone safely shoot it, shooting at a range where bystanders might be harmed. If this man was so afraid of firearms, why did he go to the range in the first place? He clearly didnt bother to really learn a single thing about the subject. He shouldnt of bothered in the first place.

Alex:

NONE of us was born knowing about firearms. MANY of us did not have the opportunity to grow up around them. Those who have not done so, frequently have a fear reaction the first time they're at a range. It's LOUD. The concussion waves from multiple big bore guns can be really weird the first time you feel them. So he was afraid. So what? He went. He tried it. That is a good thing.

He didn't bother to learn???? Last time I checked, most of us, learning something new, needed a teacher, a guide, a coach. Something. It would have been better if he'd gone for a lesson for his first time out, but he didn't. And a range that rents guns is going to serve the RKBA cause best if they HELP new shooters, rather than just turning them loose.

A troll is one who comes in and stirs the antpile with a stick and runs off. This is an editorial written by a guy who was nervous about guns and is now really afraid of them. There is a difference.

This guy could have been become a gun nut like the rest of us had he but been given a better experience with it. You just don't turn a new person loose with no help, and with no training.


Although the pistol was a .357 magnum he was shooting .38 specials. Yes a .22 would have less recoil but not by much.

Rey:

Weeeelllll.... there are .38 rounds and then there are .38 rounds. If what he got was some +P stuff instead of wadcutters, that could make a new shooter uncomfortable. I have a 66-3 that I shoot .38's out of regularly, and the +P stuff is quite a lot more noticeable than the milder loads, even in that gun. I grant you, .38's in a .357 might seem like no big deal to us, but then we know how to grip the gun, how to stand, and know what to expect.

A new shooter has none of those advantages. Best to start with a .22 for the first time, and he didn't get to.

Of course, I wouldn't pick an indoor range for a new shooter either....

Point is, the guy is not trolling, he's not a [insert favorite insult here], he was a new shooter that was real nervous and went to a range for the first time anyway. And now he's confirmed in his fears and writing about them.

That is not good for us, guys. It could have been different.

Springmom
 
Jiminy Cricket people...

The guy went to a range. Obviously something about shooting a gun seemed appealing to him.

He was handed a big revolver instead of a .22.

He was given an extremely brief "shoot that way" speech by the RO.

He wasn't supervised.

No one gave advice.

Is it possible that maybe the RO had a little to do with this whole situation? Maybe it wasn't just the problem of the "close-minded wimpy journalist?"

The first time I went to an indoor range (I brought my own gun), the RO asked me my experience level, gave me a thorough briefing, then stood behind me for a good 20 minutes to answer questions and offer not only safety guidance, but shooting guidance. I think he was able to watch me physically relax and settle into a safe shooting routine. Granted, it wasn't my first time shooting, but it was my first time in an indoor range.

Do you think he would have written his editorial had he had the same RO that I had?
 
My response:

Dear Mr. Zuck,

I’m sure you’ve gotten a lot of hate mail in response to your editorial on the trip to the gun club. We gun owners can be a feisty lot if we perceive that someone wants to take away our rights. I’m sure you can understand how that might upset us. Let me apologize for any personal insults or threats that came your way from my fellow owners. Understand they don’t represent the majority.

I’m disappointed that you didn’t enjoy your first trip to the gun range. I know it can be a frightening thing being handed a powerful tool with no instruction. I’d be soiling myself too if someone strapped me into a hang glider and told me to jump off a cliff. I highly recommend you sign up for the NRA basic handgun safety course. I took the course as my introduction to firearms and it may allay some of your fears. It is a ten hour course over four days – much more than the “8 minute tutorial” that you got at your range. Knowledge dispels fear.

As far as guns being dangerous to have in the house, I believe they are no more dangerous than any number of other things in a typical house (cleaning chemicals, power tools, etc.). Responsible parents childproof their homes against these sorts of dangers and teach their children how to use them when they’re old enough. It is no different with firearms. No one has ever been killed with a locked gun, and never will be.
 
And here's mine:

Hello:

I am really sorry to read that you had such a miserable experience at the shooting range you all went to. I’m a 52 year old mom of four who shoots pistols and revolvers, shotguns and rifles, and I wanted to write and tell you that you had the bad time you did for reasons not at all related to YOU.

Well, mostly not related to you.

Did you tell the guy you were a new shooter? (Childhood doesn’t count unless you did it all the time J) If he knew that, he should have started you with a .22lr pistol or revolver. NO recoil. TINY noise. Tons of fun. Second, what kind of ears were you wearing? “Ears” means hearing protection. Most of us who shoot regularly wear “double ears”…that is, we wear foam plugs inside our ears AND a set of muffs designed for shooting over our ears. If you do that, you’ll have a much easier time. Now, granted, there are guns whose concussion wave you will feel anyway (big bore guns, or very, very fast-moving rounds from smaller guns). But you were talking about noise, and you can deal with noise.

Finally, you should have someone to show you HOW to shoot. Would you go drive a car the first time without someone teaching you? (With or without seat belts, LOL). An experienced shooter could have answered questions, allayed concerns, and shown you how to shoot accurately.

If you’re ever down in the Houston area, please email me. My husband and I would be pleased to take you out and let you shoot our pistols or rifles or whatever you’d like. And I don’t think you’ll end up unhappy at the end of the day.

I hope he tries it again, with someone who can help.

Springmom
 
I'm glad to see letters like the last few posted.

Good work.

And for some of you, grow the hell up. I've shot guns that have a good chance of detaching retinas. :scrutiny: Doesn't make me a "manly man" like the rest of you he-men who were born knowing how to run a .500 S&W in each hand.

A new shooter had a lousy experience because he wasn't taught what to do. That isn't something to glory in. That is a loss for our side. And when that person is a writer with an audience, it is an even greater loss.

Some of the comments Justin edited were downright embarrasing for the gun culture.

It is our job to teach. Not mock people who aren't as cool as us. This ain't high school, this is a culture war. Now act like it.
 
Does He Answer?

Has anyone had a reply from this guy?

You know, it's a shame he went to that range.

There's another range, not all that far from Las Vegas, where they roll out the red carpet for members of the press. Pamper them, actually.

If this fella is likely to make another trip out to Vegas, I can recommend at least two ranges that will yield better results.

I don't know the name of one of them. I'd have to ask the instructor. He's a guy I used to work with.

Walking into a range, cold, and expecting to get any kind of real orientation . . . bit of a crap shoot.
 
I sent him this:

We can't remember whose idea it was, but neither of us thought we'd actually go through with it.
You sound like a 10-year-old running through a cemetery. And it is not very believable that you don’t know how you got there. “Seeking refuge from the heat.” Childish, affected, nonsense.

Apparently, I'm holding a girl's gun.
The .357 was, for decades, the most powerful handgun in the world. It is not a “girl’s gun” – it was originally developed for Highway Patrolmen and hunters. When firing .38 Special target loads, in a full-size revolver however, anyone who is not physically handicapped can shoot it without suffering from the recoil.

… children can't accidentally kill themselves by playing with seat belts …
Of course they can. That’s why child seats were invented. Regular seat belts are dangerous for small children – they can strangle.

… a fire can't steal your fire extinguisher and use it against you …
A criminal is very unlikely to successfully take a gun away from a person who is competent to use it. And by competence, I mean that level equivalent to what is required to drive a car (do you drive?) The “he will take it from you and hurt you with it” argument is absurd propaganda. In reality it is virtually unheard of.

… even with ear protection the noise is deafening.
That should not be the case, with well fitting muffs. Did you have trouble getting the muffs to seat well over the safety glasses? That is a common problem, and the reason many people use ear plugs instead, or in addition.

When I find an intruder in my house, I'll just throw a fire extinguisher at him.
Ironically unfunny, considering your previous remark about fire extinguishers. In the real world, he probably would “use it against you” – either throw it back, or beat you to death with it.

I'll be glad to get out of here without soiling my undergarments.
I violently twitch as another gun is fired
… wondering how much it hurts to accidentally shoot oneself in the foot.
… jumping at the sound of each one.
I feel terror.
… before I run out of luck and end up with nine fingers.

Did you feel the same sort of thing when you learned to drive?
Who is your target audience? Do you think your readers really enjoy such a silly, childish, emphasis on your emotional inadequacies?


(Thain, great transmogrification! Did you send it to him?)
 
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Um, I have fired .38 special rounds in one of those light scandium framed revolvers by Smith and Wesson, and the recoil was as sharp as any I have felt.
 
Yup. It is. I have a m37 airweight and when I run +P's though it it is NOT pleasant. I do it, not because I have a masochistic tendency (maybe I do, I'm still posting on this thread.... :neener:) but because I frequently carry that J frame and need to keep my skills up with the ammo I'll shoot if I ever really need it.

But that doesn't make it a picnic.

We are PRESUMING he got a full size revolver. Maybe he didn't. Maybe he got +P's in a K frame and didn't know how to hold the thing and so got the full effect of the recoil.

Either way, Correia is right. When we see a first timer go away thinking "I'll never do that again" we have lost. We cannot, in this culture war, AFFORD to lose even one person like this. I hope he tries it again, with someone that will teach him and get him to enjoying this great hobby.

Springmom
 
Then try...

Um, I have fired .38 special rounds in one of those light scandium framed revolvers by Smith and Wesson, and the recoil was as sharp as any I have felt.

Then try a .357 in the same revolver for a whole new level of "recoil was as sharp as any I have felt". :D
 
Easy now folks...

The guy went to a range. Obviously something about shooting a gun seemed appealing to him.

Even if nothing appealed to him, he did go to a range, which is 10 times further then 99% of anti’s will go. Anyone with the slightest bit an open mind could have walked away with a positive (or neutral at worst) experience if they are instructed properly. I bet if this guy was instructed properly and the right steps were taken that at worst he would have left thinking that while shooting was not right for him, that we are not the nut-job, Elmer Fudd Looking hicks that has become the anti’s image of anyone who shoots. If his account is even 50% accurate then the folks who own that range did none of us any favors.

Thoughts:

Always give a new shooter a safety “lecture” and if possible a tutorial on how the gun that they are going to shoot works and functions. This will calm most of their fears about the gun it’s self.

Always start new shooters out with a heavy 22 (Ruger Mk series, 22/45, etc). Not only is recoil lower, but so is the noise and muzzle flash.

Always give a new shooter ear plugs and muffs.

Always let a new shooter stand around and watch and listen for a while before shooting. This allows them to get used to the noise and the concussive effect of shooting indoors.
 
He was handed a big revolver instead of a .22.

This is what stuck out to me upon reading the article. Just seems like the weapon chosen wasn't the best for a first time run. The range where I shoot at will ask newbies if they've ever fired a gun before and they will suggest a smaller caliber so newbies can get their feet wet.

Thinking of my own situation with the wife, I did not start her out on a .40 or .45 because dryfiring the .40 with snap-caps, she flinched constantly and dang near dropped the pistol. Yet, it was hard to ignore the lil smiles she let loose at her first 'working' time at the range as she let .22s fly.

IMO, the original author experienced 'baptism by fire'....no pun intended.
 
Always always ALWAYS keep it high road when dealing with the press, or anyone else for that matter. Don't talk down to them and don't insult them. Don't try to impress them with a lot of gun jargon. He doesn't know what a .22LR is. For all he knows its one of the calibers used in the VT massacre. They know zip about firearms and ignorance leads to fear. At the risk of sounding like Yoda, fear leads to hate and hate leads to losing our rights.

Empathize and educate, my friends.
 
I decide now's not the time to mention that children can't accidentally kill themselves by playing with seat belts and a fire can't steal your fire extinguisher and use it against you.

But kids strangle themselves with balloon ribbon, rope, string, and a variety of other things. A criminal won't steal your gun and use it against you if you use it properly.
 
NONE of us was born knowing about firearms. MANY of us did not have the opportunity to grow up around them. Those who have not done so, frequently have a fear reaction the first time they're at a range. It's LOUD. The concussion waves from multiple big bore guns can be really weird the first time you feel them. So he was afraid. So what? He went. He tried it. That is a good thing.

He didn't bother to learn???? Last time I checked, most of us, learning something new, needed a teacher, a guide, a coach. Something. It would have been better if he'd gone for a lesson for his first time out, but he didn't. And a range that rents guns is going to serve the RKBA cause best if they HELP new shooters, rather than just turning them loose.

A troll is one who comes in and stirs the antpile with a stick and runs off. This is an editorial written by a guy who was nervous about guns and is now really afraid of them. There is a difference.

This guy could have been become a gun nut like the rest of us had he but been given a better experience with it. You just don't turn a new person loose with no help, and with no training.

I agree with the no training part. However as an adult it was his responsibility to ask for this help, yes the other people in the shop could of been more accomodating. This story will not help the RKBA cause, because this is an example of someone who dared to touch the dangerous gun and came away even more scared and ridiculed to boot. Also the entire article attempts to paint gun owners as the cliche rednecks (nothing against rednecks at all, just trying to convey the viewpoint of many antis).

The part that scares me about people who are new to firearms is what was illustrated as he described shooting the gun. He mentioned that while he was attempting to aim mid-center he was hitting the shoulder of the silhouette. The fact that he didnt notice this until he exhausted all of his ammuntion, shows that he may not of been paying close attention to what he was shooting. The image that popped in my mind was that of someone shooting with their eyes closed. The idea of someone doing that next to me at a range does indeed worry me, as i imagine it would most people. I know he didnt say he had his eyes closed, just that it was remeniscent of someone who does.

Also if he was violating this safety rule, who knows what else he was violating. I am not claiming that he should of known better, just that ignorance+gun+fear-experience-instruction=dangerous.

I still say he didnt bother to learn. Sometimes you can learn more about observation than you can from someone telling you something. This difference is especially true with me. I know I learn better by watching, and then mimicking. Obviously there were people there shooting because of the sounds he mentioned. This type of quiet observation would easily be assumed to be interest in that particular firearm.

I have taken girlfriends to the range before, only when such an interest was expressed. One in particular fired a .22 rifle twice, set the rifle down with the bolt back pointing down range, and said she had enough. That was all this guy had to do, if he didnt like or was scared.

As for the troll issue, the connection is looser than i made it out to be, you are correct springmom.
 
This story will not help the RKBA cause, because this is an example of someone who dared to touch the dangerous gun and came away even more scared and ridiculed to boot. Also the entire article attempts to paint gun owners as the cliche rednecks (nothing against rednecks at all, just trying to convey the viewpoint of many antis).

Agreed, on both points. Of course, maybe they were cliche rednecks, but that's not the point :D

He mentioned that while he was attempting to aim mid-center he was hitting the shoulder of the silhouette. The fact that he didnt notice this until he exhausted all of his ammuntion, shows that he may not of been paying close attention to what he was shooting.

Interesting point. Sometimes I find it hard to see exactly where I've shot if I'm shooting from 15+ yards too. Wonder how far away he had his target hung? If it was 20 yards or so, in an indoor range, could just be the lighting. Especially if he didn't use those black and green target stick ons that help you see better (which I expect he didn't). Hm.

I still say he didnt bother to learn. Sometimes you can learn more about observation than you can from someone telling you something. This difference is especially true with me. I know I learn better by watching, and then mimicking. Obviously there were people there shooting because of the sounds he mentioned. This type of quiet observation would easily be assumed to be interest in that particular firearm.

He could have approached it a lot smarter, I agree. Sounds like it was a spur of the moment thing, and that's ok. I wish more nonshooters would think of a day at the range as a spur of the moment thing. I just hope that if they do, they get some guidance and help. This may be a lesson to those who run ranges to be proactive with folks who are new, and for those of us who see new folks at the range near us, to volunteer some help and time.

Springmom
 
Awww shucks......


Hate when I'm wrong. But you guys are starting to make a lot more sense. Esp. Springmom. I don't know... I his irrational fear of guns in no different than my irrational fear of heights. My apologies to everyone if I came off like a club-toting caveman.

I'd recant my first post on the subject, but it has already been deleted. Thanx.
 
This may be a lesson to those who run ranges to be proactive with folks who are new, and for those of us who see new folks at the range near us, to volunteer some help and time.

And that's it, in a nutshell. Well said.

The dude should have asked for help...but then again, he shouldn't have had to.

Hate when I'm wrong. But you guys are starting to make a lot more sense.
No problem man. We are all here to learn and absorb other's viewpoints. But most importantly, I think most of us are here to learn how to help the cause.
 
I decided to write the poor guy:
I might ask you why you even went to that range at all. I'm not what you would consider a gunny, not in experience, anyway. I've shot, maybe three different kinds of guns, five at the most, so I'm not that experienced. You shot a gun in Boy Scouts once? I'm a Boy Scout, of 16, and I thought it was curious why they included such activities as Rifle and Shotgun merit badges when they wouldn't include something like Karate or Paintball. I got an answer:
Guns aren't designed to kill people.
It's that simple. Boy Scouts don't have a Hunting Merit Badge (okay, now they do, but it's with cameras, and you "shoot" by taking a picture), they don't have a Paintball Merit Badge, they don't have a Karate Merit Badge, and they don't have a Self-Defence Merit Badge. Why? Are Boy Scouts against killing people? No. They do it because the BSA is responsible, at least in a small part, for the raising of these kids. The experiences that kids have at Boy Scouts will live with them throughout their lives. But they do have shooting. Why? In Boy Scouts, the targets are simple circles. You are not allowed in BS to shoot at a man-shaped target. I once (2002-ish) wanted to shoot at a target with Osama drawn on it. Whey wouldn't let me. So I took one of my good targets and drew Osama on it anyway. I was young and there was alot of that sort of thing going around at the time, being just after 9/11. The point is, the BSA allows shooting because it is a good, fun activity, and it teaches discipline, care, and prudence. I wouldn't be half the man I am today if it weren't for my excellent rangemaster in my Rifle Merit Badge class.
"This here's the easiest to start with. It's got less kick so it's easier to control."
A .357 magnum revolver is easy to control. He loaded it with .38 Special rounds (which are the weakest loads for that weapon, often used by anyone getting accustomed to firearms), so he was being courteous to you. He didn't hand you the biggest .50 AE Desert Eagle that the range had just so that he could laugh at you. The one guy wasn't saying that his niece could shoot it because he wanted to feel like he had a bigger cock than you, he said it because you were obviously scared. You'd only touched a gun once before, and it showed. It always does. I've seen many people go to a range and pick up a weapon with so much trepidation, you'd have thought that they were being asked to wrestle a lion. I'd also like to poitn out that you didn't ask for any other range instruction. They probably didn't want to make you feel any more uncomfortable that you already were. If you'd asked, I know I'd have given it to you, and I'd be shocked if they wouldn't have.
"I decide now's not the time to mention that children can't accidentally kill themselves by playing with seat belts and a fire can't steal your fire extinguisher and use it against you."
That's where you're wrong.
When improperly educated about the correct use of a seatbelt, a child can often strangle his/her self by slipping down and catching his/her neck on the shoulder restraint. Just like accidents with firearms, they both stem from parental neglect and error. Both are preventable, nigh eliminatable, with good parenting.
As for the "stealing a gun and using it against you", honestly, if your family, friends or anyone else were in direct danger and you had a firearm, would you be so... incompetent to let them take that weapon from you? I wouldn't, and I'm not some 300-pound bodyguard. Also, what criminal do you know who is so stupid as to attempt to? Their life is in direct danger, all they really care about is their life, chances escalate if they attempt that sort of stunt, so the only conclusion that I can come up with is that they would back off.
As for the noise level, yep, guns are loud. Very loud. That's why I want my government to make it much, much easier to get suppressors. You know that they take a $200 tax to get right now? That's ridiculous. You want to save your ears? Push for better suppressor legislation.
"Some people feel powerful with a pistol in their hand; I feel terror."
Well, that's your problem, isn't it? A gun is not the One Ring, my friend. It is not a slithering rattlesnake, intent on pumping your heart with venom. It is a carefully shaped piece of metal, wood, plastic, and smokeless powder, designed to push another piece of metal forward at high speed. Nothing more. The intent, the heroism or evil, comes from the person behind it. Do not feel terror, feel whatever you are feeling at the time. I feel enjoyment, because shooting is enjoyable to me.
As for running out of luck before running out of fingers, if you had bothered to ask the rangemaster for further instruction, you might not be so jittery and thus more likely to accidentally shoot yourself or someone else.
Why didn't you hit your target? You jumped. You were scared of the gun, and you can't hit crap if you are scared of your weapon. Guns are effective, but only as effective as the individual behind them, your story proves that admirably.
May you never find yourself in a situation dire, or as a witness to such.
Best wishes,
-Nate
p.s.
Don't mind the "fidelcastro" tag, it's an inside joke, about a jacket of mine.

Some of what I said is put a little funny, but I think it helped make my point.
 
My apologies to everyone if I came off like a club-toting caveman.

And once again, we need an applause smiley. Thank you for that. ;)

Nolo, that was a good letter. Don't be real surprised if Art's Grammaw visits one sentence there in the middle, but the gist of what you had to say was fine.

It'll be interesting to see if he answers any of us.

Springmom
 
A new shooter had a lousy experience because he wasn't taught what to do. That isn't something to glory in. That is a loss for our side. And when that person is a writer with an audience, it is an even greater loss.
The issue isn't that the author had a bad experience; the real issue is the tone/slant he chose to use to relate that bad experience.

The guy who wrote that article had an agenda and that agenda was to instill the fear of firearms into the hearts of each and every one of his readers who has never handled or shot a firearm themselves.

Good thing for us that our grandfathers who fought in WWII weren't as afraid of inanimate objects as the article's author.
 
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I really think everyone is to blame.
for all we know the guy was shooting an airweight snubby with +P self defense rounds. He probably picked a small gun because he assumed it would be less powerful.
And for all we know, the guys at the range just assumed he knew what he was doing. He came in and rented a pistol. If he had given any indication that he was new someone probably would have given him something more appropriate, and made sure he knew the four rules.

Still, the guy did write an overly dramatic account of his experience, but hey, he's trying to sell papers, not tell the plain truth.
 
I was a little skirmish the first few range sessions, as was I a little skirmish the first few times I drove a car on public highways. What is his point?
 
Some of you are getting a little to touchy feely on this one. This guy wrote a very juvenile article, loaded with negative stereotypes, and generally portraying our whole culture as ridiculous. Even the title of his article "Have gun, will tremble" basically translates, especially to his readers (if any) as guns=fear. That's the whole premise of his article and that is not fair to our side. He is scared of firearms and he projects his fear, as most antigun advocates typically do, to equate with the idea of the whole gun culture must be about living in fear.

So before we all run out and fall over ourselves to help him shoot a .22, realize that this guy is a dyed-in-the-wool anti, looking down his nose at us with the rest of the elitist media.

I look around and watch a dozen or so gun-toting, plaid-wearing bearded guys nod in agreement.

Gun toting. Plaid wearing. Bearded guys. As if that's what every single gun owner or person at a gun range looks like. Why didn't he just write, "I look around and watch a dozen or so gentlemen nod in agreement." I'll tell you why not, he is trying to advance the stereotype. "Remember people (these would be his readers) gun owners are big burly men in plaid that don't speak but rather just collectively respond with a nod, much like apes."

I decide now's not the time to mention that children can't accidentally kill themselves by playing with seat belts and a fire can't steal your fire extinguisher and use it against you.

Which translates to: "I am smarter than you. I know more than you. I know that guns are dangerous and you don't. The progressive, elitist, civilized world is leaving you behind but since I'm the lone representative of that group in your store I won't risk my own safety to inform you." This guy is smug and his writing here clearly demonstrates he didn't go into the range looking to be introduced to something new. He came with biases and prejudicies. He reinforces stereotypes and explains his self righteous, holier than thou attitude through well worn false analogies.

When I find an intruder in my house, I'll just throw a fire extinguisher at him.

"Remember readers, I'm no good with a firearm, you won't be either, so don't bother. Remember, guns=fear. Guns do not make you safe. They are loud, the people that own them are neaderthals from a bygone era who don't like you, they won't protect you because you won't hit what you are aiming at, rather you'll more likely hit your own children."

Look at the area this paper serves. It's a MA rag, this guy knew what he was doing, and he is no fence sitter. Spend your time with the neighborhood kids instead. This one is gone.
 
Coyote, you very well may be right. But when Justin has to go through the first page of the thread and delete a bunch of posts that could have been written by a third grader, (most of them referred to panties, chest hair, "growing a pair" or other vauge references to genitals) it isn't exactly a constructive day for our side, if you get what I mean. :rolleyes:
 
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