Oh yes, another PGO thread!

[bleachcola]

I see a lot of hate towards pistol grips on this forum. Anytime someone mentions the grip ten people chime in with "well now it's just a hunk of crap" or something of the sort. I find that ridiculous. My home defense shotgun is PGO and I'll tell you why. First off, I have put in the range time necessary to become proficient with aiming it. Put a man sized target within twenty five yards of me (longer than I'll ever have to make a shot in my home) and I can nail it center mass with 00 buck from the hip. Just bc some of you do not possess better than average eye hand coordination does mean that it is impossible to aim with a pistol grip. All you guys who pull up your shotgun to shoulder height and place it properly against you body to line up the sights are taking much more time than it takes for me to shoot from the hip with just as much accuracy at close range distances. Besides, who actually uses a bead sight or ghost rings or whatever in an adrenaline paced scenario? You are going to be point aiming anyway, so why not learn to do it from the hip where it take less time to position? It won't be easy at first but with practice you can become quite proficient in aiming from that position. Second, having the gun that high on my frame inhibits my eye sight. It's not major, of course, but it definitely takes away some peripheral points to the bottom right of me. Not so when it's on my hip. The gun is close to me, out of sight, and not sticking out for someone to grab or deflect. Third, I'm not a small guy so I can control the recoil and not sprain my wrist. So all in all, I feel I am in a better position to defend my home with my setup. I'm comfortable with it and it works for me. If you can't shoot from the hip with any kind of accuracy then that is your fault for not putting in the time at the range. I'm not saying that is a bad thing and that everyone should do it. You should do whatever you are comfortable with. But you shouldn't bash other people's decisions when they've decided to take the extra step to learn how to use their home defense weapon properly.

 

[bleachcola]

Plus, the setup in my bedroom is perfect for it. If there a loud crash that awakens me I can have the thing in my hand and ready to fire in just a couple seconds.

 

[rbernie]

Besides, who actually uses a bead sight or ghost rings or whatever in an adrenaline paced scenario?

Guys who get paid to kick down doors for a living.

I am glad that a PGO setup works for you. I have to believe, however, that if it was a better mousetrap, then all of the folks who kick down doors for a living would be shooting from the hip and not bothering with those pesky sight planes.

 

[bleachcola]

Guys who get paid to kick down doors for a living.

I am glad that a PGO setup works for you. I have to believe, however, that if it was a better mousetrap than all of the folks who kick down doors for a living would be shooting from the hip and not bothering with those pesky sight planes.

I didn't mean to imply that it's the end all setup for shotguns. Sorry if I came across that way. But absolute precision aiming is imperative for those guys and the most common way to teach that is with traditional butt stocks. My gun is setup merely for home defense, not tactical intrusion, though. I feel most comfortable with my setup and feel that it gives me a tactical advantage given my abilities and preferences. I can understand if someone is absolutely unable to hit a target within 25 yards when shooting from the hip. But just bc they can't do it doesn't mean they should immediately crap on the face of everyone who decides to use them. Instead of immediately balking at PGO's, folks on here need to realize that some people have good eye hand coordination and point sighting abilities and can wield a PGO shotgun with just as much lethal force as their full butt shotgun in a home defense scenario.

 

[Regolith]

It sure is easy hitting those nice targets that stand there real still like at a known distance. I'm sure that mister bad guy who breaks into your apartment at o'darkthirty will also cooperate in a helpful manner and be sure to stay still and within a known distance so you can shoot from the hip. Nothing could go wrong. Nope.

 

[sm]

<LawDog voice>

Judas Priest on a pogo stick!
These threads are worster that can getting sticker bush stuck on the back-side and finding out you only have one Irish Breakfast tea bag left!

</off>

 

[bleachcola]

Did I say anything about standing there for minutes on end and taking my time to line up the plane? I'm talking about quick point and shoot practice. Might I once again point out that this is a home defense set up. We're dealing with enclosed spaces. Not exactly a full sprint scenario. If I have someone backed into a room or hallway then where exactly is he moving to in such a fast pace? He can dart to the left or dart to right, bob and weave a little if he wants, but I can still put those 9 pellets into him. What if I'm the one being pursued, on the other hand. If someone is running directly at me then how much aim alteration does it take? Or will the bad guy be zigzagging across the room as he makes his way to me. We're talking about a home invader in the confines of a house here, not an Agent in the Matrix. God forbid I get shaky and miss, there's always more shells in the tube.

 

[JShirley]

What training have you had that leads you to believe a PGO shotgun is a good idea for home defense?

Not why you think that- what training have you had that leads you to this position?

John

 

[Okiecruffler]

Well, I for one have put in enough range time with a PGO to nail a tin can out to 30yrds every time from the hip. I still use a full stocked weapon. Wanna know why? It's a better tool for the job. I base this on the opinions of people who actually use SG's for defense and offense, not folks who play with them at the range. You won't find many folks who actually start their day with a decent chance of needing a SG to save their arse toting around a PGO. And those that do carry them because they must and wish they could use better. But what the hell do I know, I probably have below average hand eye coordination.

 

[bleachcola]

What training have you had that leads you to believe a PGO shotgun is a good idea for home defense?

Not why you think that- what training have you had that leads you to this position?

John

If you are referring to paying money for an actual training course or the like, then none whatsoever. I do what most folks do and practice at the range. I have access to a private facility with few members so I have the luxury of being able to go to one section and set up multiple man sized targets within home defense range. I can take my PGO shotgun and empty every shell onto a target extremely quickly. Is that equivalent to the latest Ayoob tactical course? Definitely not. Does it make me proficient enough to shoot a person in my home? I believe so. I find that the busier my surroundings are, the easier time I have point aiming since I have more to go by on referencing. So if I can do it quickly like it were second nature in an empty field then I'm sure I could do it in my home. Given the nature of home invasions the use of my shotgun would probably require not even that amount of training in order to be effective. Will I be the ultimate special operations megaman that a training course would make me? No. But if someone breaks in my house then I stand a good chance of being able to hit them with my boomstick.

 

[Gord]

What's this "nine pellets" stuff? Load it up with birdshot, empirical evidence be damned! You're special so it'll work for you, because you can make headshots with it every time, unlike all those other guys who aim for COM like a bunch of unskilled pansies who just don't have the mindset to practice headshots with a shotgun.

In seriousness, congratulations, you've proven absolutely nothing. With a little practice I can probably make fairly quick COM hits on big, stationary targets (on an empty range, in broad daylight, without time constraints or anyone shooting back at me, with a perfect line of sight to my target and wide awake) holding my (stocked) 870 upside down and left-handed.

 

[bleachcola]

The point of this thread isn't to say that PGO's are better. The point is that some people are capable of using them when the scenario fits them. You can't automatically assume that a PGO makes a shotgun a hunk of crap like most of you guys do. If you truly believe that then I would be willing to set up a scenario where you come try to break into my house and I'm only allowed to defend it with my PGO shotgun. Are you really so certain that it's such a piece of crap that you'd be willing to accept that challenge? Obviously I'm not being serious but you get the point.

 

[plexreticle]

I suggest taking your pistol grip gauge to a 3 gun match and show up all those slow pokes with full stock set ups.

 

[shotgunkevin]

I can shoot my full-stocked ghost-ring-sited Mossberg from the hip, or shoulder, or underarm, or one-handed, or...

A PGO isn't required to shoot from the hip, but a traditional stock is required to shoot from the shoulder.

 

[bleachcola]

What's this "nine pellets" stuff? Load it up with birdshot, empirical evidence be damned! You're special so it'll work for you, because you can make headshots with it every time, unlike all those other guys who aim for COM like a bunch of unskilled pansies who just don't have the mindset to practice headshots with a shotgun.

In seriousness, congratulations, you've proven absolutely nothing. With a little practice I can probably make COM hits on big, stationary targets holding my (stocked) 870 upside down and left-handed.

Who said anything about unlimited time? I practice for speed so that it becomes second nature. If there were a shotgun lying at my bed and I had to shoot somebody coming into my room then I could grab my PGO and put one into his chest quicker than I could with a full butt stock. It's as simple as that. It works best for me and it is what I'm most comfortable with. Unlike the popular belief you subscribe to, firearms are not a one-fits-all scenario. Different things work for different people.

 

[bleachcola]

I suggest taking your pistol grip gauge to a 3 gun match and show up all those slow pokes with full stock set ups.

What part of "home defense scenario" are you not able to understand? Where did I suggest that this method would be acceptable for a three gun match?

 

[Fred Fuller]

Dave has a standing challenge for anyone secure in their skills with a PGO shotgun.

I'll be the first to kick into a kitty to buy your gas to drive to Maryland, if you'll accept...

lpl

 

[bleachcola]

I can shoot my full-stocked ghost-ring-sited Mossberg from the hip, or shoulder, or underarm, or one-handed, or...

A PGO isn't required to shoot from the hip, but a traditional stock is required to shoot from the shoulder.

Very true. But then my shotgun wouldn't fit perfectly under my nightstand. I also prefer the grip angle on the PGO when shooting from the hip. Makes it easier for me. Once again, just a personal preference.

 

[lloydkristmas]

You could do like I did, and get a cheap top-folding stock or something similar. Sure its not much to look at, and its definately not comfortable, but it affords you the portability and size of a "PGO" shotgun, but allows you to also have a stock at the ready if you need it. I dont think those top-folding stocks have much use for "tactical operators" or whatever, but it suits my needs just fine. Plus, if youre simply firing from the hip, the fact that the folded stock blocks the bead sight is not an issue.

 

[bleachcola]

Dave has a standing challenge for anyone secure in their skills with a PGO shotgun.

I'll be the first to kick into a kitty to buy your gas to drive to Maryland, if you'll accept...

lpl

I have no idea what the challenge is but I'm sure his point is already correct, whatever point he's trying to make with the challenge. My point however is not to say that PGO's are better than butt stocks or even equivalent for that matter. All I'm trying to point out is that different people feel more comfortable with different set ups. If I'm in my house trying to shoot a bad guy then I don't want a full stock/length shotgun extending from my shoulder. I much prefer a PGO shot from the hip. To accommodate that preference, I try my best to become proficient in point aiming and shooting. I believe I'm good enough at it to hit a person if I had them within the narrow confines of my house. He's not sprinting in an open field fifty yards away. He's on the other side of a room at most and there isn't tons of options for an escape pattern.

 

[Gord]

Are you really so certain that it's such a piece of crap that you'd be willing to accept that challenge?

Are you ever going to attend formal training with your PGO? Because, failing that, we've got plenty of members who have BTDT in military and/or police service, various shooting sports and said training. It's not how vocally you argue, it's what verifiable experience you have to back it up. As long as you're entirely content to brush off any suggestions of actual evaluation of your PGO's performance relative to anyone else's full-stocked shotgun, you should expect most to dismiss you as being misguided at best.

All I'm trying to point out is that different people feel more comfortable with different set ups.

You probably want to edit your OP then, because what you're actually doing there is brashly arguing that anyone who maligns PGOs does so simply because they refuse to take the time to become proficient with them, or because they are small and weak and cannot handle them, and that they are obviously The Best because stocks and sights have no place in HD anyway.

Just bc some of you do not possess better than average eye hand coordination does mean that it is impossible to aim with a pistol grip.
...
If you can't shoot from the hip with any kind of accuracy then that is your fault for not putting in the time at the range.
...
All you guys who pull up your shotgun to shoulder height and place it properly against you body to line up the sights are taking much more time than it takes for me to shoot from the hip with just as much accuracy at close range distances. Besides, who actually uses a bead sight or ghost rings or whatever in an adrenaline paced scenario?
...
I'm not a small guy so I can control the recoil and not sprain my wrist.
...
But you shouldn't bash other people's decisions when they've decided to take the extra step to learn how to use their home defense weapon properly.

That last, I'm sorry to tell you, is just snicker-worthy, coming from a guy whose idea of The Extra Step is plinking at the range, addressing a forum full of people who have paid for Serious Bidness training or experienced The Real Thing in their course of service.

 

[MAX100]

My opinion is that a PGO shotgun is more than adequate for inside home defense in the hands of someone who knows how to use it.

The shotgun you have is the right one ...
As long as you know how to use it.

Clint Smith

Here is the GUNS Magazine Link:

http://www.gunsmagazine.com/webblastTRDS.html


GC

 

[shotgunkevin]

Very true. But then my shotgun wouldn't fit perfectly under my nightstand. I also prefer the grip angle on the PGO when shooting from the hip. Makes it easier for me. Once again, just a personal preference.

It's your call. My nightstand weaponry consists of a pistol. To each his own.

 

[bleachcola]

Lloyd, good point. Best of both worlds. I'm just comfortable with my current grip and set up but it could be of use to get one of those and practice with it.

 

[bleachcola]

Are you ever going to attend formal training with your PGO? Because, failing that, we've got plenty of members who have BTDT in military and/or police service, various shooting sports and said training whose opinions are and always will be far more respected than your own untested and unproven ones.

It's not how vocally you argue, it's what verifiable experience you have to back it up. As long as you're entirely content to brush off any suggestions of actual evaluation of your PGO's performance relative to anyone else's full-stocked shotgun, you should expect most to point and laugh quietly.

How do military/police training and shooting sports apply to my scenario? I am using my setup for home defense, a completely different scenario. Are you seriously unable to comprehend that? Obviously a full butt stock is the right choice for their situations. But yes, I do plan on taking real defense courses when time allows.