Oh no!...PGO!

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My main point is, I really don't feel the need to justify my SD choices to anyone...not the 357 mag revolver, the M1 carbine, nor the PGO shotgun.
But, if I see a weapon I have two decades of experience with slandered as the mods here do, I will state my reasons for choosing this weapon, so that someone looking for u nbiased info might see an alternative point of view.
I am not a "3 gun" competitive shooter...just a guy who has been shooting since age five. I know what works for me.
Like any weapon, the PGO takes practice and proper technique in order to use it to it's full potential. Plus, it is not an either or weapon...there are alot of cheap used Mossbergs out there...it would be fairly cheap to have one set up as a PGO AND have a stocked shotgun...I have stated here, I own both...My PGO Mossberg, and my Remington Model 11 riot. It is the PGO which excells inside the house FOR ME...If you are unable or unwilling to use the PGO, use something else which suits YOU.
 
Rshooter said:
Nine pages later we are still arguing with the mods. Think about it.
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Most of the mods happen to be mods partly because of their experience and round counts. Notice how PGO aficionados are never 3-gun competitors or serious-business types? And that they seem to pretty universally reject the concept of actual practice or training classes? Apparently, there is some bizarro parallel universe for PGO guys where classes or accurate COFs are overboard tactical-Rambo BS and everyone advocating a full-stocked shotgun is a tweed-wearing, British-accented dentist. You see, they're actually the normal ones. It's not them, it's everybody else in the world who gets paid to walk into, or train people to walk into, harm's way. :rolleyes:

Don't worry, though, that doesn't stop them from "knowing" they'll win:

amd6547 said:
I can say with out a doubt that the PGO is superior
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I guess none of those big-shot trainers have ever laid hands on a PGO, or they'd know this. Without a doubt.
 
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Ultimately, shooting is all about what you can do, on demand at any given time, with repeatable and measurable results.
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Especially in the real world. Excluding actual data such as the shooting I have mentioned is known as 'cherry-picking'. It is unscientific and skews the data in a biased manner.

A range, where the video would presumably be taken, is a controlled environment which throws your argument of 'on demand at any given time' out the window. Only real-world data (not youtube mockups) can be relied upon.
 
I can say with out a doubt that the PGO is superior
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And I can say without a doubt that the PGO is inferior.........so what? YOUR opinion, you're entitled to it.my opinion, I'm entitled to mine - but trying to make that sound like fact is not exactly truthful
 
Here is what I wrote on page 9:
"An accurate COF would require a shoot house similar to the home I live in, with the same tight construction as my house (a very strange tiny two bedroom home).
Having explored moving through my house with both a stocked shotgun and my PGO, I can say with out a doubt that the PGO is superior...and it stores in an incredibly small hidey hole."

...And here is the out of context quote from ahem, "tactical ninja", and also "oneonceload":
"Originally Posted by amd6547
I can say with out a doubt that the PGO is superior"

I have found the "High Road" philosophy to be refreshing in the world of gun forums, and I try to live up to it. That's why it is so disappointing to encounter blatently Low Road behavior here. It is not surprising, though, in the shotgun forum.
If taking a quote out of context baldly is not "Low Road", I don't know what is.
In my responses here, I have used my own shooting experience expressed with logic and restraint. That the opposite side of this debate must resort to denegration, insult, and pasting quotes fully out of context (tantamount to lying, in my book) demonstrates the weakness of their position.
__________________
 
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SpamHandler said:
Especially in the real world. Excluding actual data such as the shooting I have mentioned is known as 'cherry-picking'. It is unscientific and skews the data in a biased manner.
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It's hardly cherry-picking to point out that a single incident is hardly indicative of what may or may not be the predominate outcome of the employment of such guns in defensive situations. It says even less about what you or I could do with them.

A range, where the video would presumably be taken, is a controlled environment which throws your argument of 'on demand at any given time' out the window. Only real-world data (not youtube mockups) can be relied upon.
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As to your second point, let me get this straight: you're claiming that it's completely impossible to approximate a practical or defensive situation on a range?
 
...And here is the out of context quote from ahem, "tactical ninja", and also "oneonceload":
"Originally Posted by amd6547
I can say with out a doubt that the PGO is superior"
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So, you didn't say that? If not, then I'll apologize - but calling it low road is BS.........I also have a 2BR home, but your comment about "exploring" it is interesting - why? Why would you not just hunker down in whatever your "safe" room is and dial 911?
 
I'm fairly certain that disengenuous quoting isn't against the rules.

That said, amd, you seemed to do a fine job pointing out the discrepancy and addressing it in a satisfactory manner.
 
Andrew Wyatt said:
if its a 2010 coupe, you have 13.4 cubic feet of trunk space. that's certainly enough room for a folder.
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It isn't a 2010 coupe. If it were, I would say that in my trunk right now, there is a bike wheel, a toolbox, various radio equipment, a box of fired brass, and much more miscellaneous crap for any firearm to get buried under. I need to organize my trunk and tie all the crap down, but there is a remarkable lack of anchors to tie a rope to in the trunk of a Mustang.
 
Since "disengenuous quoting" is apparently considered High Road in the shotgun forum (at least when done in support of moderator bias), I have to say I'm surprised Justin that you wrote:
"PGO shotguns are an ideal tool for self defense"

It must be true..."you wrote it"...
 
If you're that insecure in your ability to address the issue, I'm not sure I can help you. As I stated before, I thought you handled the issue well enough that it didn't require my intervention via the editing of the content of the posts. (I think this may well represent the first time in moderation history when a moderator has been accused of not being censorious enough.)

On top of that, when a staff member takes part in a discussion, generally speaking they will refrain from editing content in that thread in order to avoid impropriety.

If you believe these other posts to well and truly be in violation of THR's code of conduct, consider PMing another mod who hasn't taken part in the thread for their take on the issue.

At any rate, is there any chance of the discussion getting back on track?
 
Not much chance, Justin. Too many mutually exclusive opinions. And while anyone can have an opinion, the ones that matter are those based on fact.

Leadhead, the demo I used to give rookies back in the day was at 15 yards, with a folded Remington folder and from the hip. Ammo was 00 9 pellet. Times ran under 4 seconds for 5 shots transverse fire.

I do not recall the exact times for the same exercise from the shoulder, but it was 1 point sumthin' less. Call it .2 seconds per shot, maybe more.

Do that exercise. Heck everyone should with their pet HD tools, just to know....
 
Dave, I find it interesting that among all of the subgroups of shooters that exist, the PGO boosters are the ones most likely to make posts talking about how they don't need to go to the range.

Working from the assumption that there's really no such thing as a bad excuse to hit the range, and that we all likely share that belief, I find it disconcerting that there are so many who seem uninterested in getting out and putting lead on target.
 
I tried to phrase it as inoffensively as possible.

The bottom line in all of these threads, though, always seems to boil down to one group claiming that they have knowledge that's contrary to widely held notions, and when proof is asked for, those advocates don't provide it.

I'll readily admit that you have more PGO experience than myself, but my experiences have led me to believe PGO shotguns to be lacking in more than one important aspect.

Yet when those issues are raised, they're dismissed out of hand as hogwash with no more proof offered than some say so or obfuscation as to what level of speed or skill is required in a given situation for a given weapon.
 
Well, I dont recall any of the pgo shooters (rather than theorists with pre-concieved attitudes) say that they dont need to go to the range.
 
Leadhead, the demo I used to give rookies back in the day was at 15 yards, with a folded Remington folder and from the hip. Ammo was 00 9 pellet. Times ran under 4 seconds for 5 shots transverse fire.

I do not recall the exact times for the same exercise from the shoulder, but it was 1 point sumthin' less. Call it .2 seconds per shot, maybe more.

Do that exercise. Heck everyone should with their pet HD tools, just to know....
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Dave is transverse fire 5 targets equally spaced apart?
What do you think of the Speedfeed witness pro grip compared to the Police Folders?
From the shoulder just over a second for 5 shots was normal..... did they start with the gun mounted?
 
Then I can assume that demonstrable proof of the effectiveness of the platform is forthcoming?
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I posted this before but I guess it's not proof of much.... This was my first attempt from the hip and I was so surprised I took his head off that it kind of stunned me then I let him have it 4 more times just to make sure he stayed down...
:)

Candown
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I drive a commercial retail truck for a living, monday through friday...saturday, I'm doing truck paperwork and loading, and often sunday as well...or doing house chores. When I get to steal some of my lifetime for a trip to the range, my goal is really not focused on demonstrating the effectiveness of the PGO shotgun to you, effectiveness for my purposes already haven been proven.
I have stated previously that the shotgun, stocked or otherwise, is a tertiary weapon for me. Therefore, shotguns go to the range less often than the hand guns and rifles. My primary SD weapons, and thus what get the most range time is the 357 mag and the M1 carbine, followed by assorted handguns, AR and AK. Shotguns make it about every third trip, which means about five times a year when both the Model 11 and the PGO Mossberg get a workout.
 
amd6547 said:
disingenuous quoting
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That was meant to be quoted in exactly the context that you wrote it - that the PGO is superior for moving around the house with, compared to a full-stocked shotgun (and not that it is "superior" period). I didn't specify that as an add-on to your quoted statement because I was expecting a fairly quick response from you to clarify that you were referring to the handling characteristics and not just speaking in general terms (assuming that is in fact the case. Either way, I'm not going to put words into your mouth).

At which point I would probably make the observation of there being little if any effective difference in package dimension (shooter + firearm) or protrusion between a PGO vs. full-stocked shotgun at low ready or high ready, and that there are methods of shortening the OAL of a full-stocked gun even in firing position.
 
It's hardly cherry-picking to point out that a single incident is hardly indicative of what may or may not be the predominate outcome of the employment of such guns in defensive situations. It says even less about what you or I could do with them.
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It is cherry-picking to exclude actual data in order to bias the results in one's favor. Fortunately some people are able to learn from real-world occurrences (even single incidents) and benefit from the knowledge. CHP did after Newhall, FBI after Miami, LAPD after No Ho, etc. And they even managed to do so without the benefit of Youtube.

As to your second point, let me get this straight: you're claiming that it's completely impossible to approximate a practical or defensive situation on a range?
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I stated nothing of the sort. Range training is obviously an approximation, just as any game would be. It can't capture the reaction of facing return fire (unless you've got some REALLY interesting training aids). My issue is with your belief that a shooter at a range, who knows that he will be shooting, somehow constitutes 'on demand at any given time' . It's an approximation, and a very poor one at that.

It's a good thing that Law enforcement has embraced doctrinal and armament changes by studying actual shootings. Somehow I doubt that they would be as moved by a youtube range trip.
 
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