Oh yes, another PGO thread!

[Gord]

I only use the PGO for inside the house. If I had to use a shotgun for fending off folks outside in open spaces then I would use the butt stock. That and the AR and one of the handguns.

How do you know where the BG is, or will be? How do you know he doesn't have backup waiting in a shadowy corner of the yard, or around front? Do you plan to tote all three around with you if you hear a Bump in the Night?

He was trying to tell me which club to use, but I was all like, yeah, whatever, dude...

Tiger Woods just doesn't have the skill and mental discipline to learn how to use a putter for 40-yard shots like you do. And all those pro golf trainers who advocate using a nine-iron are just a bunch of idiots who don't know anything about you or your golf course, because you are special and unique, unlike the tens of thousands of other people they have trained out of the same stupid mindset.

Well, anyway, I'm going to go take my Honda Civic down to the NASCAR race now.

Dude, my Maserati will smoke you like I just smoked a $190 Cuban cigar. While my supermodel wife hand-fed me escargot and caviar. On my personal Learjet. In outer space.

Beat that, Correia, you bully!

 

[bleachcola]

Yeah, what the hell do all of you guys with tens of thousands of accumulated hours of training, competition, and actual gun fights know! Bunch of big meanies.

bleachcola, just because every single professional instructor, professional shooter, real competitor, SWAT team, bonafide expert, and shotgun fanatic disagrees with you, I'm sure you're like totally right, and you're personal PGO shotgun is the most awesomest thing evar!

Sure, you're disagreeing with people who shoot like 20,000 rounds a year in practice, and get paid good money to shoot, but they're just being pricks. Because, you know, what could they possibly know? You've screwed around at the range, while under zero stress, on a bright sunshiny day, shooting a piece of cardboard. That certainly puts you on the same plane as somebody like Dave McCracken (the big jerk) who's taught like thousands of people how to actually, you know, kill people with shotguns.

I'm no warrior. But back when I was competing really hard, I was .05 seconds off the fastest time in the world on a Dozier drill with a pump shotgun. I shot a lot of rounds through a pump shotgun. I would shoot half a case of shells in one stage of a 10 stage match. I'm pretty sure that if the PGO could be shot, by anybody, anywhere, with any sort of actual speed, I might have seen maybe one win something, somewhere, at some point in time. But I must have not been paying attention. Heck, 3gun competition is just a game where we use shotguns in the most realistic manner of any of the shotgun games. I'm sure PGO's will be taking the country by storm anytime now.

Now, all these big meanies are giving you grief. They've got this weird belief that the PGO is a handicap for actual self-defense use. It is harder to hit with, slower to utilize, doesn't control recoil, sucks on split times (which determines the speed you can get follow up shots, but I'm sure you're vast knowledge already knew that), has a lousy shooter interface, terrible fit, and most of all, it breeds this false sense of confidence, that you will somehow be able to move faster or be more maneuverable, (even though the guys that actually, you know, move with weapons for a living all have stocks on theirs, because actual usage shows that the PGO isn't any more maneuverble than a stocked weapon).

Sure, you can use a PGO and successfully defend your house, they'll say. Doesn't mean it isn't stupid. I can also successfully defend my house with a .410 derringer, a pointy stick, or a Lorcin .380. Doesn't mean that anybody with two spare brain cells is going to pick those as their first choice. (and by the way, your super-dooper superior hand-eye coordination will absolutely turn to crap as soon as the adrenalin is pounding through your system, your hands are shaking, your fine motor skills go to hell while your brute stregth goes up, your vision tunnels, and your movements are jerky and erratic, 'cause that's exactly when I want to count on my "hand eye coordination"!)

See, those shotgun nuts are just jerks!

Well, anyway, I'm going to go take my Honda Civic down to the NASCAR race now. It worked just fine for me while I drove it around the Walmart parking lot, so I'll like totally win. And if I'm wrong, what's the worst that could happen?

So hang in there, bleachcola. Educate those interweb bullies!

I've seen the light. I understand now. Understand that I have to switch to a butt stock? No. What I do understand better now is my confusion on moderator postings in this thread. It appears that you guys don't actually read any of the posts people make when they are about PGO's. You simple have a default anti-PGO nazi mode you go into and try to make points that have already been conceded to in the past while ignoring the points that I have brought up regarding PGO's in my personal scenario. Did I ever say that PGO's are superior? Did I ever say that professionals and others who use butt stocks are wrong? No. What I did say is that I am more comfortable using a PGO to defend my home and I can shoot from the hip at targets near to me. You guys make it sound like the average home invasion is a squad of CIA agents breaking in and dispersing throughout the home, taking up tactical positions with superior fire power. That's a fun fantasy and all but it's not reality. In the wild chance that I actually do have to use my shotgun on somebody it will be in extremely close range. If a different scenario presents itself I will switch to a more appropriate firearm that will be on me or nearby enough to where I can lay down suppressive fire with my shotgun while I get to it.

 

[bleachcola]

Quick note regarding adrenaline though. That was an excellent point that I forgot to address. Yes, somebody who can hit targets at the range can become completely useless when presented with a high adrenaline scenario. Am I that type? Though I have never been in a home invasion scenario, I'm sure I wouldn't exactly crap my pants. I put myself through college working as a bouncer. Just about every other night for five years of my life I engaged in heavy physical confrontation with other people. In that time I saw dozens of guys come and go bc they couldn't handle heavy adrenaline situations and got nervous. But for the rest of us, the threat of physical harm just doesn't make us lose our cookies. We can handle it. I'm not trying to brag or state that I'm some kind of hard ass. No matter how tough you think you are, there's always someone who bigger and tougher. What I'm trying to get across is that I'm not like the typical poster over in the Strategies and Tactics forum who will draw a pistol and call 911 if some kids are tailgating me in traffic and flipping me off.

 

[bleachcola]

How do you know where the BG is, or will be? How do you know he doesn't have backup waiting in a shadowy corner of the yard, or around front? Do you plan to tote all three around with you if you hear a Bump in the Night?

I wouldn't go chasing the guy around outside as if I were some kind of tactical ninja. That's a stupid idea. If I'm inside my home then I am much more familiar with my surrounding than I am if I were out in the open. If I were outside anyone could come from any angle. Not in my house. There are barriers that provide defensive angles in there as well as two dogs whose breed was specifically developed for defending families/homes. I definitely have the upper hand in that scenario. Nobody is sneaking up on me unless they've shot the dogs and have been hiding somewhere while I walked by them. So why would I go running out into the open with a PGO? It's not something I would ever do so why even bring up such a ridiculous notion? If they run outside then the cops that my woman called in the beginning of the situation can chase them down. As far as what I've have on me, my PGO and my 1911. Anything else would require me going back to my room for.

 

[Gord]

Did I ever say that PGO's are superior? Did I ever say that professionals and others who use butt stocks are wrong?

From the first page, which you continue to conveniently ignore, your own quotes from your OP:

Just bc some of you do not possess better than average eye hand coordination does mean that it is impossible to aim with a pistol grip.
...
If you can't shoot from the hip with any kind of accuracy then that is your fault for not putting in the time at the range.
...
All you guys who pull up your shotgun to shoulder height and place it properly against you body to line up the sights are taking much more time than it takes for me to shoot from the hip with just as much accuracy at close range distances. Besides, who actually uses a bead sight or ghost rings or whatever in an adrenaline paced scenario?
...
I'm not a small guy so I can control the recoil and not sprain my wrist.
...
But you shouldn't bash other people's decisions when they've decided to take the extra step to learn how to use their home defense weapon properly.

You are indeed stating (not opining; brashly stating) that PGOs are superior (because nobody uses stocks or sights when they have to deploy a shotgun) and that people who consider PGOs to be nigh-useless do so because they lack the training, or mental willpower, or hand-eye coordination, or whatever. (Yeah, those SWAT guys are a bunch of undisciplined, weekend-warrior pansies. Maybe if they'd just want it a little more, they could learn to shoot their MP5s with buttstocks folded and save themselves some time. )

 

[JShirley]

Yes, my training is minimal in comparison to many on this board. Does that take away my ability to defend my home?

No, but it means they have a more educated opinion than you.

You started this thread with the express intention of pointing out how PGO was a better choice for you with these contentions:

1. You have "better than average" eye hand coordination Just bc some of you do not possess better than average eye hand coordination does mean that it is impossible to aim with a pistol grip;

2. You are faster at close range with your PGO than those who use a stocked shotgun from the shoulder All you guys who pull up your shotgun to shoulder height and place it properly against you body to line up the sights are taking much more time than it takes for me to shoot from the hip with just as much accuracy at close range distances;

3. Using a PGO is better tactically Second, having the gun that high on my frame inhibits my eye sight. It's not major, of course, but it definitely takes away some peripheral points to the bottom right of me. Not so when it's on my hip. The gun is close to me, out of sight, and not sticking out for someone to grab or deflect;

4. PGO is a better choice for you I feel I am in a better position to defend my home with my setup;

You wrap all this up with some circular logic:

5. Anything can be the most effective if you practice with it you shouldn't bash other people's decisions when they've decided to take the extra step to learn how to use their home defense weapon properly.

Because all the big meanies with the actual training and experience are picking on you, you get to change what you actually meant, because we just misunderstood. Hell, your idiotic "challenge" to break into your home and get shot at is just as legitimate as a witnessed and hopefully videotaped match at a range, so we should put up or shut up.

Anyone can be an expert on the internet. Of course, it's usually easy to tell the wheat from the chaff pretty quickly, especially when real-world challenges are offered. Without any actual training, you get to dictate what proper CQB tactics are. THAT's brilliant.

YOU put up or shut up. You made the contentions, back 'em up or simmer the hell down.

John

 

[PTK]

I have a variety of shotguns, handguns, rifles, etc.

I sure as heck don't reach for a PGO (or even keep one handy) for HD, but I wouldn't hesitate if that's all I had.

 

[rantingredneck]

I wouldn't hesitate if that's all I had

I wouldn't hesitate to use a baseball bat if that's all I had. Still don't make me Babe Ruth.

 

[bleachcola]

You are indeed stating that PGOs are superior (because nobody uses stocks or sights when they have to deploy a shotgun) and that people who consider PGOs to be nigh-useless do so because they lack the training, or mental willpower, or hand-eye coordination, or whatever. (Yeah, those SWAT guys are a bunch of undisciplined, weekend-warrior pansies. Maybe if they'd just want it a little more, they could learn to shoot their MP5s with buttstocks folded and save themselves some time.

Direct address of each quote you posted:

"Just bc some of you do not possess better than average eye hand coordination does mean that it is impossible to aim with a pistol grip."

I stand by this. People constantly harp this point on the forum and I disagree. Just about every weekend I go out to the range and will aim/hit targets. To say that somebody cannot do that is to make an incorrect statement. It just takes some eye/hand coordination and practice.

"If you can't shoot from the hip with any kind of accuracy then that is your fault for not putting in the time at the range."

Yes, that is correct. If you can't hit a target within home defense ranges from the hip it is bc you haven't tried hard enough or put in the practice time. It can be done. It's not a magic trick. Lots of people can do it.

"All you guys who pull up your shotgun to shoulder height and place it properly against you body to line up the sights are taking much more time than it takes for me to shoot from the hip with just as much accuracy at close range distances. Besides, who actually uses a bead sight or ghost rings or whatever in an adrenaline paced scenario?"

Yes, that is correct. I can grab my gun and fire from the hip quicker than the time it takes someone to get into proper form and line up sights. Are there professionals out there who can fire multiple shots from the shoulder faster than I can from the hip? Definitely. Such would be the case with the Dave challenge. But when it comes to grabbing my gun from the nightstand and getting the first shot off, I can do that faster than in the time it would take to stand up, raise the gun to my shoulder, line up the sights at the guy, and pull the trigger. There's much less work involved in just grabbing the gun and squeezing one off from the hip. It requires nothing but instinct there. And if the guy standing a few feet in front of me I can hit him just as well as the guy who took the time to line up the beads on his sternum.

"I'm not a small guy so I can control the recoil and not sprain my wrist."

That too is correct. If I couldn't handle the recoil or if it hurt me in any way then why would I continue to do it on a regular basis at the range? If I've been doing it for a long time now and can reliably hit targets then how am I not able to handle the recoil? That quote doesn't even relate to me saying PGO's are superior anyway.

"But you shouldn't bash other people's decisions when they've decided to take the extra step to learn how to use their home defense weapon properly."

Key words being "other people's decisions" and "their home defense weapon." Did I say you shouldn't bash people for learning proper home defense skills? Did I say PGO's are the proper home defense weapon? The point I was trying to make is that different people prefer different things and if they at least take the effort to become proficient in shooting their weapon in their preferred way then you shouldn't be bashing them. Again, human beings are highly individualized. Firearms aren't one-size-fits-all.

 

[PTK]

I wouldn't hesitate to use a baseball bat if that's all I had.

My point exactly.

 

[bleachcola]

No, but it means they have a more educated opinion than you.

You started this thread with the express intention of pointing out how PGO was a better choice for you with these contentions:

1. You have "better than average" eye hand coordination Just bc some of you do not possess better than average eye hand coordination does mean that it is impossible to aim with a pistol grip;

2. You are faster at close range with your PGO than those who use a stocked shotgun from the shoulder All you guys who pull up your shotgun to shoulder height and place it properly against you body to line up the sights are taking much more time than it takes for me to shoot from the hip with just as much accuracy at close range distances;

3. Using a PGO is better tactically Second, having the gun that high on my frame inhibits my eye sight. It's not major, of course, but it definitely takes away some peripheral points to the bottom right of me. Not so when it's on my hip. The gun is close to me, out of sight, and not sticking out for someone to grab or deflect;

4. PGO is a better choice for you I feel I am in a better position to defend my home with my setup;

You wrap all this up with some circular logic:

5. Anything can be the most effective if you practice with it you shouldn't bash other people's decisions when they've decided to take the extra step to learn how to use their home defense weapon properly.

Because all the big meanies with the actual training and experience are picking on you, you get to change what you actually meant, because we just misunderstood. Hell, your idiotic "challenge" to break into your home and get shot at is just as legitimate as a witnessed and hopefully videotaped match at a range, so we should put up or shut up.

Anyone can be an expert on the internet. Of course, it's usually easy to tell the wheat from the chaff pretty quickly, especially when real-world challenges are offered. Without any actual training, you get to dictate what proper CQB tactics are. THAT's brilliant.

YOU put up or shut up. You made the contentions, back 'em up or simmer the hell down.

John

From my very first post:

"I'm comfortable with it and it works for me."

"I'm not saying that [not being able to shoot from the hip] is a bad thing and that everyone should do it [shoot from the hip with a PGO]."

"You should do whatever you are comfortable with."

Three direct quotes from my first post there. What part of those sentences do you people not understand? I was directly saying that PGO's are not right for everybody, I just feel it is right for me and it is what I'm comfortable with.

 

[Gord]

I can grab my gun and fire from the hip quicker than the time it takes someone to get into proper form and line up sights.

No, you can fire from the hip quicker than you can fire from the shoulder, probably because you have poor form and/or aren't well-versed in basic fundamentals. You've had several offers to be spanked in speed-shooting and have declined. By the way, it's not just the speed of the initial shot (though in all probability you'd be shamed there too); it's speed over multiple shots, which may be required if the bad guy doesn't do exactly what you want.

That quote doesn't even relate to me saying PGO's are superior anyway.

In the context of the rest of your blowhard OP, it insinuates that people poo-poo PGOs partly because they are too small and/or weak to control them.

Your idea of "proper home-defense skills" differs from that of every career professional, Serious Bidness instructor and experienced shooter. That should be a clue that perhaps these guys all know something you don't, and it's not because

human beings are highly individualized. Firearms aren't one-size-fits-all.

You'd think that out of the tens - probably hundreds - of thousands of people who've gone through the pro training schools, somebody would have had the bright idea that "hey, some of these folks Just Do Better with PGOs" by now if that were true, at least in respect to shotguns. What you are actually doing is trying to cover up your own lack of training and expertise with circular logic and bad arguments.

You've been called out by several moderators who use shotguns in both professional and recreational capacities, and have, at some point or another, probably put more rounds down the tube in a year than you will in a lifetime. I can't tell whether you're backpedaling furiously or just incapable of scribing posts without sounding like an egotistical bullhead, but either way it would behoove you to think longer and harder before you post in the future. It'll save you a lot of grief and embarassment.

 

[sm]

Would someone please post some diagrams of COFs that are used by 3 gun, Corrections, LEO, and Military?
I would like to see these.

I am over age 50, out of shape, do not do near what I used to with a shotgun or any firearm for that matter.
I am up to my eyeballs in life stuff, currently not feeling real sporty , and other "life stuff" .

Now I recall some COFs, still I know these change.
I know what I grew up doing, and we did not use start buzzers and timers.
I still do this old stuff, with folks like I was raised with.

i.e. Do a walk through of a house/business and come up with prevention ideas and plans of what to do.
Then whatever gun these persons have, come up with practiced plans.
Shooting lanes, cover, code words, pass words and the like.

It might be a 19 year college student, a wheelchair person, or someone recovering from neck, shoulder, or back surgery, and they cannot shoot because of NO RECOIL orders from Surgeon and Physical Therapist.
We do get approval to use .22 rim-fire.

For you folks disagreeing with me, the doctors and medical professionals-
Go break your neck, shoulder , back, and detach you retina fighting in Iraq, Afghanistan and then get back to me.
Or just go out and get hit by a tornado, get T-Boned in your car.

Out of respect - I do not use the words "training" or "stages" for the things I do with folks. Just the way I am.

I have never been to a known training place. I am dumbest member on this board, and the least qualified.

It has been awhile since I have been to FL, I have not flown in years due to TSA, and my truck, needs repair and I doubt it would make it.

I am an over 50 southern boy that has a lot of faults.
One big one is, I care.

My eyes are getting a bit more green in them...

I want to see:

-COFs used by folks.

-Diagram of bleachcola's structure with the dimensions.

Please.

*smile*

 

[conw]

I think this thread is pretty ridiculous. While I see the logical fallacies in bleachcola's discourse, I think this thread - for some reason - has brought out the worst in almost everyone. Be a little more polite and High Road please.

Being rude doesn't make anyone any more convincing.

 

[rantingredneck]

someone recovering from neck, shoulder, or back surgery, and they cannot shoot because of NO RECOIL orders from Surgeon and Physical Therapist.
We do get approval to use .22 rim-fire.

For you folks disagreeing with me, the doctors and medical professionals-
Go break your neck, shoulder , back, and detach you retina fighting in Iraq, Afghanistan and then get back to me.
Or just go out and get hit by a tornado, get T-Boned in your car.

Or fall from a treestand bowhunting. Yep, no recoil orders for 6 weeks.

I am dumbest member on this board, and the least qualified.

I highly doubt that.

 

[mtngunr]

I'll chime in based on owning a Vindicatored 870 18" for more than a decade.

It was the most often toted anywhere shotgun I've ever owned....very easy to carry to and from the truck, and the most easily stashable/stowable gun I've ever owned.

That being said, I finally sold it, because I know I can't hunt worth beans with it....and it I can't hunt with it, why in the world would I think I could use it in an emergency any more effectively.

The buttstock is clearly superior for both hitting with first shots, and in getting second/third/fourth shots off in minimum time and maximum accuracy.

Putting the PG'd 870 next to my 870P, and especially in carrying them, showed the 870P was just as handy in confined spaces, the buttstock not protruding any further than my elbow at hip-level, while being there for buttstock advantges when firing from the shoulder.

In short, the PG offers serious shortcomings in handling/shooting, while offering the minimalist size for packing/toting/stowing....the buttstock is superior in all things save non-shooting compactness....I'll never buy another PG, or even a folder...stowing isn't my priority....

 

[bleachcola]

No, you can fire from the hip quicker than you can fire from the shoulder, probably because you have poor form and/or aren't well-versed in basic fundamentals. You've had several offers to be spanked in speed-shooting and have declined. By the way, it's not just the speed of the initial shot (though in all probability you'd be shamed there too); it's speed over multiple shots, which may be required if the bad guy doesn't do exactly what you want.

Okay, so there exists people in this world that can fire from the shoulder faster than I can take a hip shot. I will concede that. But in no way that does help me in defending my home. I am not those people. I'm not a highly trained professional who has had years of proper form drilled into my brain. I'm an individual person with individual preferences and abilities.

In the context of the rest of your blowhard OP, it insinuates that people poo-poo PGOs partly because they are too small and/or weak to control them.

Your idea of "proper home-defense skills" differs from that of every career professional, Serious Bidness instructor and experienced shooter. That should be a clue that perhaps these guys all know something you don't, and it's not because

If I have any attitude coming across in my posts it is merely in response to the elitist attitude that oozes from this forum. Posters constantly call PGO's "hunks of crap" and the sort. I find that foolish. Posters constantly claim that is is impossible to aim and shoot from the hip. I find that ridiculous as well. But ohhhhh, all the tactical trainers teach with butt stocks. Yeah, awesome. But are they training me to shoot in my house with my gun and my back up gun along with all the supporting details? No. Why would I need to be trained for their scenarios when I'll never be in one of their scenarios? I don't have just a shotgun. And I won't use just a shotgun when defending my home. If I need speed and precision I will use my handgun. Even if I were to kill all the bad guys by spraying buck shot all over the house then my wife would kill me afterwards for trashing the place. Therefore, the only time I'll be using it is in close quarters. I can hit someone from the hip when they are close to me. If anyone begs to differ then they are more than welcome to come to my backyard, run around or do whatever want within ten yards of me and we'll see if I can nail them. Hitting nearby targets with a shotgun doesn't require the perfect tactics and positions that you experts harp on. It takes basic skill that can be used in a variety of ways.

You'd think that out of the tens - probably hundreds - of thousands of people who've gone through the pro training schools, somebody would have had the bright idea that "hey, some of these folks Just Do Better with PGOs" by now if that were true, at least in respect to shotguns. What you are actually doing is trying to cover up your own lack of training and expertise with circular logic and bad arguments.

You've been called out by several moderators who use shotguns in both professional and recreational capacities, and have, at some point or another, probably put more rounds down the tube in a year than you will in a lifetime. I can't tell whether you're backpedaling furiously or just incapable of scribing posts without sounding like an egotistical bullhead, but either way it would behoove you to think longer and harder before you post in the future. It'll save you a lot of grief and embarassment.

Are those trillions of experts and trainees teaching and learning the proper ways for a bleachcola to defend his bleachcola home? So then how do they know what is proper for me? You find me one instructor who will come up to me and say, "Ol' bleacher you need to use a method that will make you uncomfortable and distract you simply bc you will be able to make quicker follow up shots with quicker target acquisition. It's not important for you head to be in the game. All that matters is that you do whatever the experts are comfortable with."

 

[sm]

Hey did ya'll know if you remove the wrapping from a straw, you can blow bubbles better into your Dr. Pepper?

<gurgle-burgle-blows-bubbles>

In my kids meal, I got this yellow plastic thing with brass on one end and its crimped on the other.
"Fiocchi 20 ga " and it also says "#9 shot".

It rattles if you shake it ....

<gurgle-burgle-blows-bubbles>


Give me time, I'll figure this out...

 

[rbernie]

I think this thread is pretty ridiculous. While I see the logical fallacies in bleachcola's discourse, I think this thread - for some reason - has brought out the worst in almost everyone. Be a little more polite and High Road please.

Let's look at things from another perspective - the OP has posted things that MAY GET PEOPLE HURT OR WORSE if taken as gospel. Some of the senior members around these parts have pretty much decided that such an outcome would be considered A Bad Thing, and are actively trying to explain their concerns and opinions to someone who refuses to grasp the tenuousness of his position.

I know that this is the Internet, where everybody is a buff, steely-gazed, chisel-jawed manly man with above average eye-hand coordination. Nevertheless, we do have an obligation to remember that this is a forum for teaching and learning as much as just chit-chatting. Trying to suggest to folks that they consider adopting tools and approaches that have been demonstrated to be sub-optimal should not be lightly tolerated.

Okay, so there exists people in this world that can fire from the shoulder faster than I can take a hip shot. I will concede that. But in no way that does help me in defending my home. I am not those people. I'm not a highly trained professional who has had years of proper form drilled into my brain. I'm an individual person with individual preferences and abilities.

Then maybe instead of practicing with a suboptimal tool in a suboptimal training environment, you should spend your time/effort/energy in determining what kit is preferred by folks who can choose ANY TOOL, and then train as they do.

I would consider that to be a far better approach than to try to refine skills with a tool that has largely be relegated to a supporting role as a dedicated breaching gun or something to be used when space/mobility is at a utmost premium.

Are those trillions of experts and trainees teaching and learning the proper ways for a bleachcola to defend his bleachcola home?

One of the most important lessons to learn in life is that you and yours are not unique. Your house is not constructed of unique materials and laid out in a wholly unique way. Your motor skills and capabilities are not unique in all the world. You have your own strengths and weaknesses, but there is a large capability overlap in many areas with most of the rest of humanity.

You're not the first person to think outside the box. But you're also not likely going to be the first person to make that PGO approach work better than a conventionally-stocked shotgun, given equal training time with the conventional approach.

 

[Dave McCracken]

It's not an elitist attitude if it can be backed up. And it's backed up.

Some of the Mods "Picking " on you have placed themselves in harm's way. Some of us have had people actually tried to kill us.

And, we have an interest in seeing folks who may have similar problems coming up have the best advice on equipment and training we can give, based on our knowledge,training and experience.

Anyone can have an opinion. The trouble is, informed opinions are the only ones worth considering.

I have no problem in you defending your home and family with your chosen weapon. After all, it's your butt on the line.

I DO have a problem when you come on our forum and post uneducated, uninformed opinions presented as fact that may mislead new shooters. That can get good people killed.

I'm walking away from this thread. If things go the way I see them going, I'll be closing it soon.

 

[Gord]

I know that this is the Internet, where everybody is a buff, steely-gazed, chisel-jawed manly man with above average eye-hand coordination.

Congratulations, you just made my sig. Classic.

Being obvious that OP's not going to change or broaden his mind (and, consequently, probably never actually seek training) I'm off, too. Best of ruck spreading the gospel, bleach.

 

[sm]

Some of the regular members are in harms way at this moment.
Others have been in harm's way.

We have regular members that have never been in the military, or law enforcement , that have been in serious situations.
Some of these members are current targets because of where they work and the type of work they do.

Some have never attended a training class and some have defended themselves that were teenage, and young adult, and I do mean before age 21.

I cannot have folks get started off on the wrong foot either.

Cold hard fact.
I was just a kid, the eldest kid, and had to defend myself, and younger sibs against 3 armed adults that busted down the front door.
I stopped that threat.

I do not "tell" folks the best tool to defend is a nine shot, .22 revolver, loaded with standard pressure lead round nose bullets.

This is what I used!

Now I will suggest to a person with NO RECOIL orders a .22 rim-fire rifle, and handgun for home , CCW use.
I will , and I will assist them in using these. I have taken heat on THR for sharing this suggestion, and supporting those on this forum that have physical limits, are under No Recoil orders.

No.
The .22 rim-fire is not the best tool.
It is one tool a person can consider when they are under recoil orders.

I know some things as I have been there and done that.
There are others I know for a fact that have been there and done that.
Yes, I know some that have used a .22 rim-fire to defend, just as I do those that have used a PGO, a 1100 Skeet gun in 20 ga, Beretta Jetfire in 25ACP, Gov't Model of 1911 and hardball, Model 10 with 158 gr LRN, Ruger Mini 14, Model 94 in 30-30, H&R breaktop in 32 caliber, Sears Roebuck .410 single shot...

There ain't not magic talismans!

Some stuff does work better than others, and it is the mindset, grit, determination to survive, plus trigger time that gets this done!

Just one is wise to use the the best tool for task and learn it like a body part.



Yep, I am done with this one too.

 

[Mossberg535]

Plan B for the night has been developed, so I'm out again. I'll be back tomorrow to see if anyone wants to take my challenge. Perhaps we can come up with some proper rules and such like in Dave's challenge. If someone thinks I can't defend my home with my PGO then maybe someone will step up to the plate and prove me wrong. Any takers? Come on now. Talk is cheap fellas. Ball is in your court.

I had a guy sit in my home one evening who was a friend of a guy I thought was ok....turned out differently.
So during the conversation this chump tells me very plainly that he doesnt think I can get to my gun before he could rush me. Stupid challenge on his part. Good thing the trigger finger didnt slip.
I had no clue who this guy was...first time Id ever met him.
He didnt make any more BS comments about my ability to put him down if he made it necessary.

The sad thing is with some folks they are going to think they are right and you are wrong until you prove them wrong.

Ill take your word for things and NOT risk my life breaking into your home that you defend with a pistol grip shotgun.

 

[Titan6]

Well the Iraqi Army loves PGOs. Of course they also love shooting their AKs and RPKs in all directions on full auto the second that they think they are in contact so I wouldn't take that as a sound endorsement.

 

[buzz_knox]

One issue here is that some are talking about shooting at targets, while others are talking about shooting targets. There is a difference.

If you have a perfectly sterile environment (i.e. there is nothing you care about taking a stray round), then a PGO might be the thing. You can't really aim it because you have no specific point of reference for where the muzzle is directed. You point the muzzle in a general direction and trust that the circumstances you are currently in allow for the precise alignment of weapon, arm and body that you have "trained" to use. This isn't particularly likely, and is one of the reason why people who try to point shoot (from the shoulder or the hip) tend to miss when things aren't precisely as they trained for.

By contrast, a stock provides a far better reference tool. Whether you have bead sights or ghost ring sights, that stock and cheek weld let you know where the shotgun is heading far more precisely than hip shooting.

That all brings us back to the difference between shooting at a target or shooting the target. The former implies you are throwing lead in the direction of the target, and the latter indicates you are hitting the target.

I'm about as low speed high drag as you can get. I've used PGOs and "standard" shotguns. Given how hard it is to hit targets effectively even with a "scattergun" when the pressure is on, I'll stick to the one that gives me an advantage, namely the stocked shotgun. There's no difference in speed if you know what you are doing, but there is a fundamental difference in the ability to hit the target in chest or head, and winging the target or missing entirely.

We all do understand that we can miss with a shotgun, even at HD distances? Right?