Oh yes, another PGO thread!

[plexreticle]

What part of "home defense scenario" are you not able to understand? Where did I suggest that this method would be acceptable for a three gun match?

I have put in the range time necessary to become proficient with aiming it. Put a man sized target within twenty five yards of me (longer than I'll ever have to make a shot in my home) and I can nail it center mass with 00 buck from the hip. Just bc some of you do not possess better than average eye hand coordination does mean that it is impossible to aim with a pistol grip.

I can take my PGO shotgun and empty every shell onto a target extremely quickly.

Your better than average hand and eye coordination and ability to empty every shell into a target extremely quickly is perfect for a 3 gun match situation.

Participating in a couple of matches and posting results is a perfect opportunity to shut the PGO haters up for good.

 

[bleachcola]

It's your call. My nightstand weaponry consists of a pistol. To each his own.

My Kimber 1911 goes on top of the nightstand. The shotgun goes under it for backup. But thank you for recognizing the individuality of gun ownership. That's all I was trying to point out with this thread.

 

[bleachcola]

Your better than average hand and eye coordination and ability to empty every shell into a target extremely quickly is perfect for a 3 gun match situation.

Participating in a couple of matches and posting results is a perfect opportunity to shut the PGO haters up for good.

I'm not going to put the time, effort, and money into becoming a proficient 3 gun competitor just to prove a point on an internet forum.

 

[lloydkristmas]

I have three shotguns, one for hunting, two for defense. One has a stock on it, the other (as mentioned earlier) had only a pistol grip for a while. I later changed it to a top folding stock, but for the longest time I was perfectly happy with the pistol grip. It had its purpose for sure. I dont think anyone could possibly argue that a PGO shotgun is better than a stocked shotgun. Its harder to shoot well, harder to control, aim, etc. Sure it can be done, but its not as easy. Lets cut this guy a break, hes basically saying "heres how I like to do it" and theres nothing wrong with that. Sure there are probably more "tactically sound" methods. I've got a couple of rifles as well, assault style rifles included, but I also have an AK pistol in 7.62x39. Most serious AK shooters tell me its an utterly useless weapon without a stock and a 12 inch barrel, but I find it to be a perfect size for storage in an "emergency bag", shooting from a vehicle, etc. Obviously things that would only matter in an emergency type situation, but just like this guys PGO shotgun, it fills a role for him.

 

[sm]

I hate to share this, still I will.

I recently went up against a PGO shotgun, with extended mag, loaded with nine shot 00 buck.
Oh I was using a youth single shot 20 ga, ,with plain old regular slugs.
This gun is 36" total length, with 22" being the plain barrel , with a fixed mod choke and brass bead front sight.

Course of fire (COF) included, still not limited to, bedrooms, hallways and having to take head shots of criminal with a knife to a wife/daughter's throat and the recorded screams of "wife/daughter" being on the floor and being sexually assaulted in a kitchen.

Targets were moving, bobbing, weaving, charging, and shooting while backing up.
Light, low light and ambient light (darn near dark).

Now I do not shoot as I once did, including assisting those that were issued PGOs such as armored car guards, UC LEOs and the like.

I was able to still get two shots off and get my hits, before the PGO missed the first time.
My five targets were felled before the PGO fired 3 times.

My slug also went through a "kitchen cabinet" to make a head shot.

I hate timers, I never trained with timers per se', because in the real world there is no timers.
Screams, glass breaking, being shot, hit, dawgs barking, and the like signal real evil has shown up.
I know this for a fact.

PGO requires training with full stock to get the concepts down , then transition to PGO.
It takes trigger time with any firearm, including shotguns, and especially a PGO.

If one is going to use a PGO for any reason, that gun had better be an extension of them, and be like a body part of theirs.

Take a bed to a private range and lay down , then the set up is glass breaking and you have to access the PGO and shoot , maybe still in bed, from sitting, or just as you stand.

Set up another stage where you run to screams in a kitchen, or two car garage and your son has has his throat slit and is dying/dead, and big sister, or wife is being raped on the floor.
Two criminals.
Incoming shots...
Screams, awful screams one never should hear, and you have to stop threats!
Can you do this?
Will you be able to do this?
Can you make hits with evil, fear, stress?
Can you do it with a PGO?

These are how my lessons went with the set ups I had to do.

I have never been to a known gun school or training place. There were none when I was coming up.
I had mentors and elders, and doing what I did, and being a target , this is why I did the lessons and set ups I did, beginning as a wee brat.

Nothing is stationary, everything moves, and it moves every which-a-way except "flat" and "face on".


s

 

[plexreticle]

I'm not going to put the time, effort, and money into becoming a proficient 3 gun competitor just to prove a point on an internet forum.

They why would anybody believe your claims of leet skills otherwise? What's your point of even posting and bragging when you have zero to back it?

 

[Gord]

I'm not going to put the time, effort, and money into becoming a proficient 3 gun competitor just to prove a point on an internet forum.

And with that, the thread's officially done.

 

[bleachcola]

sm, for that particular scenario a full butt stock would be preferable. But once again, I'm only using my setup for my home and my situation. I have a completely different personal situation with my house to where I would never find myself in that scenario. When I shoot skeet, I use a butt stock. When I defend my home, I use my PGO setup. If I were in a situation where extremely precision was an absolute then I'd be using my 1911 anyway. But with my home setup I have plenty of warning from my dogs of an intruder as well as tough bolted doors and an alarm if any part of the house is breached. Nobody is sneaking up on me and putting my family in that case scenario. Especially since it's just me and the woman and she sleeps right next to me.

 

[bleachcola]

They why would anybody believe your claims of leet skills otherwise? What's your point of even posting and bragging when you have zero to back it?

And with that, the thread's officially done.

Are you guys teenagers or do you just have the mindset of one? If you don't think I can hit a target with a PGO then that's fine. I'm not defending your house, I'm defending my own and I know what I'm capable of. But if you think I'm going to waste tons of time and money in order to prove details relating to an point made on an internet forum then you're being quite ridiculous. "Hey honey, I'm going to grab a few thousand dollars out of the savings account and cancel all our weekend plans for the next year so I can go become a 3 gun competitor and prove a point to some e-***** on THR." Don't hold your breath.

 

[bleachcola]

And speaking of weekend plans, I must now dip out and engage in some. I will continue my responses tomorrow or some other time. Most likely will be replying to the same type stuff but if anyone has any more detailed questions on why I feel more comfortable using this setup for my home situation then I will be happy to address them. Or if you simply want to thumb your nose at me, that's cool too.

 

[Gord]

Don't hold your breath.

I don't have to. I'm about to take my supermodel wife out to dinner at Four Seasons in my Maserati.

Have fun with your shotgun, though.

 

[jpatterson]

Holy hell, why is everyone attacking this guy for his use of PGO? It's his preference and if he feels that he is pretty proficient with it, what's the point in trying to disprove him of that? Sure, a solid stock is useful in certain scenarios, but the point of his thread was to point out the fact that PGO's can still be useful in a close quarters defensive situation. I didn't take it as he thought he was Wyatt Earp with a PGO, but he was trying to dissuade the stigma associated with them.

My .02.

 

[sm]

I don't have to. I'm about to take my supermodel wife out to dinner at Four Seasons in my Maserati.

<tosses single shot shotgun aside>

Tactical Ninja wins!!


*whut-i-didn't-do-nuttin'-honest*

 

[rbernie]

Holy hell, why is everyone attacking this guy for his use of PGO? It's his preference and if he feels that he is pretty proficient with it, what's the point in trying to disprove him of that?

Because he didn't say, "Hey! I like mine and I'm pretty good with it, so it's not like it can't ever have value..". He basically said that anyone who chose not to use one did so out of an unwillingness to practice and because we lack basic eye/hand coordination.

Frankly, the argument that a PGO has value in a home defense scenario above/beyond its value in a dynamic entry scenario strikes me as silly. The whole rationale for a PGO was given as speed under duress, which is more of a factor in dynamic entry rather than a bastion/HD situation. The fact that the pro-fesh-shon-al door kickers prefer to use long guns which stocks and sights for dynamic entry situations tells me everything I need to know.

I'm glad that the OP practices with his HD setup. That is a very important thing, and he 'gets it'. I'll not take that away from him, and we should all at least acknowledge that.

Practice with what ya have. But don't presume to come onto a forum and tell others what THEY should have without having some significant data upon which to base that opinion.

 

[Okiecruffler]

OK, I'm confused. The only possibly value I can see in a PGO SG is in manuverabilty. But you say you'll have plenty of warning, no one's sneaking up on you, so you should have plenty of time to ready yourself. You've lost me somewhere, probably that damned hand eye coordination again.

The reason I take such a dim view on these weekly PGO threads, is that we have new shooters reading this who have put in more theatre time than range time. I don't want them to get the idea that they can buy some PGO SG and suddenly they'll be Bruce Willis good. Show me one, just one, serious shotgun guru who advocates the use of a PGO shotgun for home defense in ANY situation and I'll tone down my response.

 

[rantingredneck]

I'd kick in a few bucks alongside Lee to get you to Maryland to take Dave McC's challenge.

 

[bleachcola]

You guys got lucky. Extenuating circumstances have canceled my original plans. So I have the chance to make some quick replies while coming up with plan B.

 

[bleachcola]

I don't have to. I'm about to take my supermodel wife out to dinner at Four Seasons in my Maserati.

Have fun with your shotgun, though.

So just bc I won’t go to ridiculous lengths to prove my point makes it automatically wrong? Okay, let’s go along those lines. Since I won’t prove my point, you prove yours. Come run around in my house while I try to hit you with PGO shotgun. If you are so sure of your point then why don’t you go do something ridiculous to prove it? Or how about we discuss things like adults instead of resorting to childish argument tactics. Is it really that hard to imagine a person being able to hit targets at close range with a PGO shotgun? With practice, practically anyone can do it. It's really not that hard once you get used to it. It's like second nature.

 

[buzz_knox]

But yes, I do plan on taking real defense courses when time allows.

Let us know if you find any reputable self-defense courses that allow you to use a pistol grip only shotgun during the course.

 

[PJR]

Since I won’t prove my point, you prove yours. Come run around in my house while I try to hit you with PGO shotgun.

I'd survive that much better than you running around my house while I try and hit you with my full stock 14" 870.

You first.

You won't go to any lengths other than posting here.

Take Dave's challenge. I'll throw in gas money too.

 

[bleachcola]

Holy hell, why is everyone attacking this guy for his use of PGO? It's his preference and if he feels that he is pretty proficient with it, what's the point in trying to disprove him of that? Sure, a solid stock is useful in certain scenarios, but the point of his thread was to point out the fact that PGO's can still be useful in a close quarters defensive situation. I didn't take it as he thought he was Wyatt Earp with a PGO, but he was trying to dissuade the stigma associated with them.

Thank you. I'm glad to see some of you are picking up what I'm putting down. It seems the vast majority of posters on this board would rather rabidly attack any mention of a PGO rather than understand the fact that some people feel more comfortable using them in close quarters and have the ability to point aim them with good enough proficiency to hit a man size target in a home. Instead, hordes of posters automatically regurgitate whatever they read about or heard from a tactical trainer without putting it in proper context. Humans are highly individualized. Different things work for different people. Why should home defense with a firearm be any different? So before you mindlessly attack the next mention of a PGO, wait for just a second and try to keep things in perspective. Instead of rebuking someone for getting a PGO, remind them that they need plenty of practice with it and need to be sure they are more comfortable with it instead of a full butt stock.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Sigh....

I must have been bad in some past life and my Karma is kicking me right there in the fundamentals.

I can hit stuff with a PGO all day long. I can hit it better and faster with a traditionally stocked shotgun, period. If the target is moving, small or obscured, much better and much faster.

And, I have the knowledge, training and experience that makes that an INFORMED opinion.

In 1981, I not only had to qualify with a folded stock 870 from the hip, I had 300 new Correctional Officers to also teach and qualify.

Every ten COs got a demonstration of the COF, five rounds each at 15 and 25 yards. Four rounds in the mag at the start, "Combat Load" the fifth through the ejection port and fire when empty. Over the course of the summer I must have shot at least 500 rounds from the hip. Did it again in 82. And in 83 the idiots that thought up that mess were history and we moved on to a more realistic and practical training program.

I was good with the folder. But, it took a few hundred rounds to reach a level of proficiency similar to that I had with the standard stock. The same ammo expenditure with a stocked shotgun would have had me absolutely DEADLY.

As it was, I could traverse fire on five silohuettes from the hip in less than five seconds from a command. From the shoulder, best guess I'd have done it under 3.5 and with better hits.

And, the challenge I've made to the PGO fans for the last decade is this.....

You can use ANY PGO shotgun of your choice with ANY accessories you want from lazers to belt feed. You pick the ammo, COF, distance and conditions.

I'll use the same ammo in a close to stock but well worn 870 with a standard, Remington issue wooden stock and pad.

We shoot for score, with time deciding ties, thought here won't be any. Results posted rat cheer. Loser buys the donuts and coffee.

If distance doesn't allow this to happen, Denny Hansen, Moderator here and Honcho of Swat Magazine, spends time in Fla. He's volunteered in the past to stand in for me on this challenge. Heck, if you beat him, you'd probably get your picture in the magazine.

So has Larry Corriea, for those PGO fans in the Utah area.

The bad news, in ten years no PGO fan has felt the need to step up to the plate. They talk the talk, but not the walk.

Talk's cheap, Bleachcola.

The ball's in your court.....

 

[bleachcola]

Because he didn't say, "Hey! I like mine and I'm pretty good with it, so it's not like it can't ever have value..". He basically said that anyone who chose not to use one did so out of an unwillingness to practice and because we lack basic eye/hand coordination.

Frankly, the argument that a PGO has value in a home defense scenario above/beyond its value in a dynamic entry scenario strikes me as silly. The whole rationale for a PGO was given as speed under duress, which is more of a factor in dynamic entry rather than a bastion/HD situation. The fact that the pro-fesh-shon-al door kickers prefer to use long guns which stocks and sights for dynamic entry situations tells me everything I need to know.

I'm glad that the OP practices with his HD setup. That is a very important thing, and he 'gets it'. I'll not take that away form him, and we should all at least acknowledge that.

Practice with what ya have. But don't presume to come onto a forum and tell others what THEY should have without having some significant data upon which to base that opinion.

My opening words were "my home defense set up is a PGO and I'll tell you why." I didn't mean to imply that anyone who doesn't use PGO has bad eye/hand coordination. But when people say you can't aim and hit targets with a PGO (which they regularly do on this board) then I am saying that only applies to people with terrible eye/hand coordination. With a little practice and natural skill it can easily be done.

 

[bleachcola]

OK, I'm confused. The only possibly value I can see in a PGO SG is in manuverabilty. But you say you'll have plenty of warning, no one's sneaking up on you, so you should have plenty of time to ready yourself. You've lost me somewhere, probably that damned hand eye coordination again.

The reason I take such a dim view on these weekly PGO threads, is that we have new shooters reading this who have put in more theatre time than range time. I don't want them to get the idea that they can buy some PGO SG and suddenly they'll be Bruce Willis good. Show me one, just one, serious shotgun guru who advocates the use of a PGO shotgun for home defense in ANY situation and I'll tone down my response.

If a dude comes up to my door and is trying to get through it, I'll be there waiting for him. If his buddy sneaks around back and jumps through a window, I'm going to have to do some maneuvering. My dogs are awesome, but they're not good enough to specify the number of assailants as well as their locations. And in no way was I encouraging new shooters to put PGO's on their home defense shotguns. If people would actually read my posts they would understand that I'm saying PGO's are good for some people in certain scenarios, not everybody in all scenarios.

 

[bleachcola]

I'd kick in a few bucks alongside Lee to get you to Maryland to take Dave McC's challenge.

Does the challenge attempt to prove or disprove whether I can hit a home invaders inside of my house? If not, then what is the point. I say I can. If someone wants to prove me wrong then I challenge them to break into my home one night and try to harm me before I shoot them with it. That's all I'm trying to do with my setup. I'm not trying to tout the PGO superiority or anything of the sort.