OK.....manual safety or no?

[Dbl0Kevin]

So to an aside to my duty gun thread I'd like to get some opinions as to what you think about having a manual safety on your weapon? I'm very heavily leaning towards that I do want one. I've fired 1911's for years and never really had a problem with it.....until the last time at the range I forgot take off the thumb safety since I had been practicing hardcore for the past couple months with a Glock. :banghead:

Be that as it may....if I were to go to a gun with a manual safety and trained with it I have no doubt I would always remember to flick the safety off when the time came.

Now here comes the debate. I like the idea of a man. safety for the simple fact that if a BG somehow comes away from an encounter with my gun the first thing he's gonna do is point it at me and pull the trigger. If the safety is enough to delay him for just a couple seconds it could give me enough time to draw a backup weapon and get a shot off.

I was discussing this the other day with a friend from my academy class and he disagreed though. His line of thinking was that he wanted his gun ready to go, right out of the holster without any bells or whistles on it at all. His answer to my BG getting the gun scenario was more weapon retention training and hand to hand training. His thoughts also was that the only person skilled enough to take his gun away is someone who knows how to work a safety and thus would not give enough time for him to get to a backup.

Now while I think in a perfect world he would have a point, but I still say there is a possibility for someone to get your weapon out of sheer luck that otherwise doesn't know how to use a safety, though remote a chance it may be.

Ok I'll open it up to the floor for comments.

 

[Graystar]

You have to prepare, not for the remote possibility, but for the most likely possibility. The history of armed self-defense says that the most likely possibility is that you will be able to get your gun out and pull the trigger. So you better make sure that the gun will fire when you do pull that trigger. There are several documented cases of people that could have fired but didn't because they had the safety on.

Don't think about it too much. Follow history. And history suggests that you keep the gun ready to fire with safety off. That's why my defense gun is a Glock.

 

[Boats]

When I was a reserve deputy, we were issued the Glock 22, but I don't like them so I qualified with my privately owned Beretta 92FS Brig. I split the difference on the retention issue. I carried the pistol with the safety off, relying on the DA first pull to keep me from capping someone I was covering if I went from ready to finger on the trigger while knowing it would always go bang.

We'd do our retention drills with blue Glocks, but having the trigger disconnect was some serious peace of mind in favor of the Beretta in the field.

It was especially fun at the range to "loan" the pistol with the safety on and watch those brought up on Glocks pull the trigger, which then moves to no effect, and stare at the gun for a moment as if it were broken or even pull the trigger again. That moment is the one I would be counting on if I lost a retention battle, but managed to flick the safety on before losing. Counting on never losing a retention fight is foolish and I'd say the vast majority of people who managed to win a gun in an amped up struggle for it would find their first action with it would be to pull the trigger. That's why I wouldn't consider a mag disconnect a horrible idea on an open carry duty pistol either.

Therefore, I guess I see why DA/SA systems and mag disconnects exist, though when I can carry anything I want, I carry a 1911A1, though that choice is always under review if I find something that works for me better.

 

[jem375]

It's kind of ironic that anyone who does any hunting at all would not even think of going hunting with a gun that did not have some kind of safety and especially if he is hunting with someone else. And then you hear about people having problems with safeties on their handguns, it gets really amusing after awhile.....I have no problems with safeties on my 1911 and also none with my other handguns without safeties, you get used to whatever you are carrying at the time... my carry guns are DA, but when I am in the woods with my 1911's, I don't forget to take the safety off when I am bringing it up to fire...

 

[Black Majik]

I love manual safeties and prefer them to guns that are DA/SA or only internal safeties. Yeah I know the whole keep your finger off the trigger until' your ready to shoot spiel, but what's a little more added security.

I was raised on guns with manual safeties, specifically the BB and Pellet guns. All of those had manual safeties and I was perfectly happy with em', so why not with the firearms.

Furthermore, the 1911 is my favorite platform, I'm comfortable shooting it, proficient at it... and I cant even imagine a 1911 without a manual safety *ahem*

 

[krept]

Have you made up your mind at what point you will disengage a manual safety?

there is a good thread regarding this here

with differing opinions from even the experts, I think it's an important, yet personal decision to make.

Regarding rifles and safeties, if I were carrying the rifle in the woods in a sheath that covered the trigger guard and the trigger pull wasn't short and light, I probably wouldn't mind having the safety disengaged. Because the trigger pulls are usually light and rifles are frequently carried with the trigger exposed, I'm guessing this is why safeties are frequently used.

cheers

 

[jc2]

First off, a manual safety coupled with weapon retention is better than just relying on weapon retention training alone. Anything you can do to stack the deck in your favour is good. Secondly, I have serious doubts about your friends theory that if a person can manage to take your weapon away that it means necessarily knows how to operate it. I mean, really, you can practice take-aways with a rubber gun (and unfortunately, sometimes a dumb kid can just get lucky). If a safety just buys you a few fractions of a second while a BG fumbles with it, it may save your life.

 

[Penforhire]

I can see reasons for both sides. I happen to be on the no-safety point of view. So my motto is simplicity -- I pick a P99 or 686+ out of my GunVault when needed. Both are in pulls-trigger-goes-bang mode. I know I'm giving up that slight edge if someone grabs a gun from me (and, ahem, revolvers don't get pushed out of battery) but I don't feel I'm giving up any margin of general safety.

 

[pauli]

i'm of the opinion that manual safeties on handguns exist to compensate for exposed hammers.

to my mind, a gun with no exposed hammer requires no manual safety... and that's one less moving part to break in a new and innovative way somewhere inside your gun at just the right moment.

 

[jc2]

I don't really see the connection between a manual safety and hammer. In fact, in terms of handling, a weapon with a hammer is probably "safer" than a weapon without a hammer--a hammer provides a visible feedback of status (cocked or uncocked), a tactile feed-back (put your thumb on your hammer when you're holstering and you know if something happening that shouldn't be happening), also many hammers have a half (or quarter) cock notch that provides an intermediate safety (in addition to the firing pin disconnect) if the hammer should drop without the trigger being pulled. I would think a weapon without any visual or tactile clues (read striker-fired) that something is happening would need a manual safety more than a weapon with a hammer.

 

[shep854]

Massad Ayoob has numerous reports of officers surviving because the BG couldn't get a pistol to fire due to safeties or disconnects. AFIK, he's still waiting on a report of an officer being shot because (s)he couldn't unsafe his weapon.

If I were a police officer, I'd definitely want a pistol with a manual safety. Perhaps a Glock with the Cominolli thumb safety; that would mess with a perp's head!

 

[Dbl0Kevin]

If I were a police officer, I'd definitely want a pistol with a manual safety. Perhaps a Glock with the Cominolli thumb safety; that would mess with a perp's head!

I was thinking about the Glock safety that sits behind the trigger and you just push it out when you are ready to shoot. Might be a way to get the best of all worlds. But I'm still not sure. lol

 

[Pylon]

Here is something i did test out how easy it would be to pull the trigger *accidently* on my Glock.

I basically tucked the Glock in my jeans in all sorts of positions (unloaded obviously) and ran around the house, tried sitting in different ways, jumpng, climbing, rolling, you name it, i did it. The only thing that managed to happen was the Glock would fall deeper into my pants then i would have liked, but not enough that i couldn't just pull it out real fast if i needed it too. And i was wearing boxers so i assume that would be the worst possible scenario for this right? With briefs you would have even less chance of cloth bunching up in the trigger guard.

Needless to say, the trigger never did get pulled.

Now that i just wrote all that and realizing i'm somewhat off topic, i'm gonna go before the voices in my head tell me to say more non-related things

-Pylon

 

[Black Snowman]

I prefer guns with short, light trigger pulls. These guns have manual safeties for the most part. I don't entirely trust myself with my Glock ready to fire, but I don't have a thumb break holster. I prefer to leave a round out of the chamber. I am comfortable with my 1911 C&L and my CZ C&L. I almost never like hammer down on a loaded chamber. Seems the worst of all worlds to me.

However, this is all hypothetical to me as I've never had the freedom to carry a firearm defensively. It's just the "warm fuzzy" zones I've developed over the years.

 

[Plinkerton]

I don't think a manual safety is neccessary. I would use either if I were in your situation.

 

[antediluvianist]

Well, if you're a LEO, then the manual safety (to slow down the BG, hopefully, if he gets hold of your gun) can make sense.

If you are a non-LEO, especially if we're talking a house-defense gun- you wait behind a closed door , you don't go out into the corridor- , that arguement isn't too important. Better a revolver or a revolver-like pistol without an external safety, for simplicity in the middle of the night. Easier for the wife to use, too.

 

[Dbl0Kevin]

Well, if you're a LEO, then the manual safety (to slow down the BG, hopefully, if he gets hold of your gun) can make sense.

Yeah that's really what I'm thinking. Statistically the majority of officers are shot with their own weapons, thus having a manual safety would be a good idea to me. I think I'm leaning more and more towards an HK USP .45. hehehe .......if only the price was a little lower. doh

 

[MNCCW]

Personally I would vote for one with a manual, as long as you regularly "draw and fire" train with it. That way it shouldn't really slow you down if it is muscle memory.

That being said I carry with no safety, or safety off, but that is for other reasons (left handed and I have not yet purchased a custom gun).

One thing I'm curious about, has anyone ever compared first round accuracy when disengaging saftey, as opposed with safety off draw? assumably the hand/thumb is back in position by the time you have the pistol up and in stance, but i'm wondering if it could minutely change your grip in a "high-pressure" situation?

(slightly OT)

 

[Grunt]

No, I grew up shooting a 1911 and these days I prefer the USP-45 or a compact USP-40 so I'll say up front here that I'm biased in favor of a safety. Now the idea that a manual safety that you've used for a long time and trained with over the years can be missed when you are trying to flick it off under stress doesn't wash with me. Do you know how to grab the grip when you draw it out of the holster? Hell, do you even remember what side your holster is on? How about putting your finger on the trigger, you remember that you have to do that too, right? All of these things are learned with muscle memory. How many folks here have a stick shift and then when you dive soembody elses car with an automatic transmission you find your left foon pushing down the floorboard and your right hand waving in the air where the gear shift lever ought to be? Again, it's muscle memory of having done it a thousand times and something you're used to. Turning off a safey lever is no different.

 

[Smoke]

Personal preference.

Pick a platform and stick with it.

Smoke

 

[Plinkerton]

How many folks here have a stick shift and then when you dive soembody elses car with an automatic transmission you find your left foon pushing down the floorboard and your right hand waving in the air where the gear shift lever ought to be?

Haha... I do this all the time...

How about a P7M8? They are only 9mm (right?) and expensive as heck, but that may be the best "bad guy has no idea how to shoot my gun" gun.

 

[Dbl0Kevin]

How about a P7M8? They are only 9mm (right?) and expensive as heck, but that may be the best "bad guy has no idea how to shoot my gun" gun.

As much as I like H&K.....that has to be the gun I absolutely HATE the most for a police duty gun. The NJ State Police carried them for years and had several troopers shoot themselves in the legs with them. They, I'm sure, were idiots who didn't know how to use a gun, but I just don't like the idea of such a small pistol as a duty weapon. Especially with only 8 rounds of 9mm. That's taking away the one advantage that 9mm has over heavier rounds....capacity!! That was actually one of the reasons I changed my mind about becoming a NJ State Trooper.

 

[rappa]

Personal preference. Pick a platform and stick with it.

I agree. I learned how to shoot pistols on a DA\SA (RugerP85). Even though I enjoy shooting all types of guns, my CCW are DA\SA, no safety. My muscle memory says, "Draw, aim, pull the trigger". Right now, for me to switch to a CCW with a manual safety and to carry it with the safety on would be the reverse of the car analogy above. I'd be forgetting to 'push the clutch' in a car that has one, thus 'stalling' all the time and that would be trouble!

BTW - I'm just a regular Joe, compared to LEO, the chances of me being in a situation where I might have to use my gun or have it drawn and having it grabbed by a BG is considerably low.

 

[Croyance]

But when you draw a 1911 from a holster, as opposed to picking it up from the bench, your thumb falls where the safety is. At least thats what happens to me.
I think many criminals have no idea on how to actually use a gun. A slide mounted safety would screw with their heads just like the ignition on a SAAB. I remember window shopping in a store and overhearing two "urban youths". Best case, they wanted something to look cool. Worst case, they should have been tossed out. Anyways, hearing them talk about guns and how to select one drove home the point that they are really ignorant about guns.

 

[Croyance]

I forgot to say, grabbing a LEOs gun may be a matter of luck and athletic ability. A guy who spends much of his time playing basketball would have great hand speed and eye-hand co-ordination.
An officer who got in under "diversity" standards may have a rougher time of it. Once they pass training, how many officers (much less those who slide in because of quotas) practice retention drills?
Those who post here may be the exception. Then again, those who post here know how to use a gun. A THR/TFL'er who grabbed a random gun would probably have a good idea on how to make it go BOOM.